Why does standard notation not preserve intervals (visually)
(Disclaimer: I don't know much about music theory but ...)
The notes A, B are a whole step apart, and B, C are a semitone apart, yet their distance in standard notation is the same visually (from a space to a line, ... etc). Why ?
It's unnecessarily difficult to identify intervals like fifths or thirds. Is it just a historical accident or is there a deeper reason behind it ?
theory notation
asked 59 mins ago
SigmaPhiSigmaPhi
234
New contributor
SigmaPhi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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|
show 2 more comments
(Disclaimer: I don't know much about music theory but ...)
The notes A, B are a whole step apart, and B, C are a semitone apart, yet their distance in standard notation is the same visually (from a space to a line, ... etc). Why ?
It's unnecessarily difficult to identify intervals like fifths or thirds. Is it just a historical accident or is there a deeper reason behind it ?
theory notation
asked 59 mins ago
SigmaPhiSigmaPhi
234
New contributor
SigmaPhi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Possible duplicate of Why is C the base note of standard notation and keys?
– Carl Witthoft
53 mins ago
1
I'm asking about intervals, not why C is the base note.
– SigmaPhi
51 mins ago
You shouldn't be identifying intervals by spatial separation in the first place. You'll have just as many errors w/ accidentals as you are attempting to avoid here. The reason for standard notation is to make it easy to play, not to "analyze"
– Carl Witthoft
51 mins ago
I would hope there's enough information at the linked question to provide you with, if nothing else, hints as to existing books on music notation and history.
– Carl Witthoft
50 mins ago
I guess my intent with the intervals was phrased badly. What i intended was, wouldn't it be easier to identify chords of the same type (ex: minor chords, Am, Fm, etc ... would all look the same but just moved up or down, instead of only some having sharps/flats and some not) and other things aswell. Anyway, I'll have a look at the sources you gave.
– SigmaPhi
44 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
(Disclaimer: I don't know much about music theory but ...)
The notes A, B are a whole step apart, and B, C are a semitone apart, yet their distance in standard notation is the same visually (from a space to a line, ... etc). Why ?
It's unnecessarily difficult to identify intervals like fifths or thirds. Is it just a historical accident or is there a deeper reason behind it ?
theory notation
asked 59 mins ago
SigmaPhiSigmaPhi
234
New contributor
SigmaPhi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
(Disclaimer: I don't know much about music theory but ...)
The notes A, B are a whole step apart, and B, C are a semitone apart, yet their distance in standard notation is the same visually (from a space to a line, ... etc). Why ?
It's unnecessarily difficult to identify intervals like fifths or thirds. Is it just a historical accident or is there a deeper reason behind it ?
theory notation
theory notation
asked 59 mins ago
SigmaPhiSigmaPhi
234
New contributor
SigmaPhi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 59 mins ago
SigmaPhiSigmaPhi
234
New contributor
SigmaPhi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 26 mins ago
SigmaPhi
asked 59 mins ago
SigmaPhiSigmaPhi
234
New contributor
SigmaPhi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 59 mins ago
SigmaPhiSigmaPhi
234
asked 59 mins ago
SigmaPhiSigmaPhi
234
234
New contributor
SigmaPhi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
SigmaPhi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
SigmaPhi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Possible duplicate of Why is C the base note of standard notation and keys?
– Carl Witthoft
53 mins ago
1
I'm asking about intervals, not why C is the base note.
– SigmaPhi
51 mins ago
You shouldn't be identifying intervals by spatial separation in the first place. You'll have just as many errors w/ accidentals as you are attempting to avoid here. The reason for standard notation is to make it easy to play, not to "analyze"
– Carl Witthoft
51 mins ago
I would hope there's enough information at the linked question to provide you with, if nothing else, hints as to existing books on music notation and history.
– Carl Witthoft
50 mins ago
I guess my intent with the intervals was phrased badly. What i intended was, wouldn't it be easier to identify chords of the same type (ex: minor chords, Am, Fm, etc ... would all look the same but just moved up or down, instead of only some having sharps/flats and some not) and other things aswell. Anyway, I'll have a look at the sources you gave.
– SigmaPhi
44 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
Possible duplicate of Why is C the base note of standard notation and keys?
– Carl Witthoft
53 mins ago
1
I'm asking about intervals, not why C is the base note.
– SigmaPhi
51 mins ago
You shouldn't be identifying intervals by spatial separation in the first place. You'll have just as many errors w/ accidentals as you are attempting to avoid here. The reason for standard notation is to make it easy to play, not to "analyze"
– Carl Witthoft
51 mins ago
I would hope there's enough information at the linked question to provide you with, if nothing else, hints as to existing books on music notation and history.
– Carl Witthoft
50 mins ago
I guess my intent with the intervals was phrased badly. What i intended was, wouldn't it be easier to identify chords of the same type (ex: minor chords, Am, Fm, etc ... would all look the same but just moved up or down, instead of only some having sharps/flats and some not) and other things aswell. Anyway, I'll have a look at the sources you gave.
– SigmaPhi
44 mins ago
Possible duplicate of Why is C the base note of standard notation and keys?
– Carl Witthoft
53 mins ago
Possible duplicate of Why is C the base note of standard notation and keys?
– Carl Witthoft
53 mins ago
1
1
I'm asking about intervals, not why C is the base note.
– SigmaPhi
51 mins ago
I'm asking about intervals, not why C is the base note.
– SigmaPhi
51 mins ago
You shouldn't be identifying intervals by spatial separation in the first place. You'll have just as many errors w/ accidentals as you are attempting to avoid here. The reason for standard notation is to make it easy to play, not to "analyze"
– Carl Witthoft
51 mins ago
You shouldn't be identifying intervals by spatial separation in the first place. You'll have just as many errors w/ accidentals as you are attempting to avoid here. The reason for standard notation is to make it easy to play, not to "analyze"
– Carl Witthoft
51 mins ago
I would hope there's enough information at the linked question to provide you with, if nothing else, hints as to existing books on music notation and history.
– Carl Witthoft
50 mins ago
I would hope there's enough information at the linked question to provide you with, if nothing else, hints as to existing books on music notation and history.
– Carl Witthoft
50 mins ago
I guess my intent with the intervals was phrased badly. What i intended was, wouldn't it be easier to identify chords of the same type (ex: minor chords, Am, Fm, etc ... would all look the same but just moved up or down, instead of only some having sharps/flats and some not) and other things aswell. Anyway, I'll have a look at the sources you gave.
– SigmaPhi
44 mins ago
I guess my intent with the intervals was phrased badly. What i intended was, wouldn't it be easier to identify chords of the same type (ex: minor chords, Am, Fm, etc ... would all look the same but just moved up or down, instead of only some having sharps/flats and some not) and other things aswell. Anyway, I'll have a look at the sources you gave.
– SigmaPhi
44 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
It DOES preserve intervals (visually). What it does NOT tell you is whether those intervals are major or minor (or augmented or diminished). The distance of a space to its adjacent line will always be a second of some sort. This is because in part of history (which requires a discussion of Church modes and the history of notation), and partly because the notes on the staff change depending on what clef I give it as well as what key signature I give it. I will always know that a line to the next line, or a space to the next space, will be a third of some sort, but I only know what kind of third (and also what the notes are) if I am given more information, namely clef and key signature.
answered 40 mins ago
LSM07LSM07
844413
1
How can a different clef affect anything except which notes are where?
– Tim
9 mins ago
Because the notes decide whether the intervals are major/minor/aug/dim. From the center line on the staff to the first space above it always measures a second. In treble clef, it's a minor second (B -> C), but in bass and alto clef it's a major second (D -> E and C -> D respectively). If we change the key sig to, for example, A major, the previous intervals become a major second (B -> C#), major second (D -> E), and minor second (C# -> D).
– LSM07
2 mins ago
add a comment |
It's actually easier to find 3rds and 5ths. 3rds are on the next line or space, and 5ths are on the next but one. As in F is on bottom space in treble clef, A (3rd higher) is on the next space. In key E, with 4#, E is on the bottom line, G# (3rd) is on the nexy line up, and B (5th) is on the next line up from that. (Next but one from E). Once the key signature is established - it's at the beginning of each line - there's no problem. I think if there was always a problem for the last few hundred years, something would have been changed.
answered 46 mins ago
TimTim
104k10107261
I'm not saying that its a huge issue; more rather it's missed a chance to make the intervals visually uniform (including the sharps and flats).
– SigmaPhi
35 mins ago
"...if there was a ... problem for the last few hundred years..." hah. Have you seen how humanity solves other long-standing problems? :-( .
– Carl Witthoft
34 mins ago
1
@CarlWitthoft - ah, but musos, being part of deity rather than humanity, work at a different level...
– Tim
27 mins ago
add a comment |
A shallow answer as to why standard notation does not preserve intervals visually in terms of numbers of semitones is that modern standard notation evolved around the ideas that:
- the octave is split into 12 identifiable notes, each a semitone apart
- every particular piece of music would be based around a diatonic scale, which represents a 7-note subset of those 12 identifiable notes in the octave in a particular pattern which itself has uneven sizes of intervals.
The stave in standard notation without a key signature depicts the C major scale and its modes (all of which are Diatonic scales). Adding a key signature allows it to depict other diatonic scales, and the use of accidentals allows all possibilities in the 12-note (chromatic) scale.
answered 35 mins ago
topo mortotopo morto
26.8k246106
add a comment |
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
It DOES preserve intervals (visually). What it does NOT tell you is whether those intervals are major or minor (or augmented or diminished). The distance of a space to its adjacent line will always be a second of some sort. This is because in part of history (which requires a discussion of Church modes and the history of notation), and partly because the notes on the staff change depending on what clef I give it as well as what key signature I give it. I will always know that a line to the next line, or a space to the next space, will be a third of some sort, but I only know what kind of third (and also what the notes are) if I am given more information, namely clef and key signature.
answered 40 mins ago
LSM07LSM07
844413
1
How can a different clef affect anything except which notes are where?
– Tim
9 mins ago
Because the notes decide whether the intervals are major/minor/aug/dim. From the center line on the staff to the first space above it always measures a second. In treble clef, it's a minor second (B -> C), but in bass and alto clef it's a major second (D -> E and C -> D respectively). If we change the key sig to, for example, A major, the previous intervals become a major second (B -> C#), major second (D -> E), and minor second (C# -> D).
– LSM07
2 mins ago
add a comment |
It DOES preserve intervals (visually). What it does NOT tell you is whether those intervals are major or minor (or augmented or diminished). The distance of a space to its adjacent line will always be a second of some sort. This is because in part of history (which requires a discussion of Church modes and the history of notation), and partly because the notes on the staff change depending on what clef I give it as well as what key signature I give it. I will always know that a line to the next line, or a space to the next space, will be a third of some sort, but I only know what kind of third (and also what the notes are) if I am given more information, namely clef and key signature.
answered 40 mins ago
LSM07LSM07
844413
1
How can a different clef affect anything except which notes are where?
– Tim
9 mins ago
Because the notes decide whether the intervals are major/minor/aug/dim. From the center line on the staff to the first space above it always measures a second. In treble clef, it's a minor second (B -> C), but in bass and alto clef it's a major second (D -> E and C -> D respectively). If we change the key sig to, for example, A major, the previous intervals become a major second (B -> C#), major second (D -> E), and minor second (C# -> D).
– LSM07
2 mins ago
add a comment |
It DOES preserve intervals (visually). What it does NOT tell you is whether those intervals are major or minor (or augmented or diminished). The distance of a space to its adjacent line will always be a second of some sort. This is because in part of history (which requires a discussion of Church modes and the history of notation), and partly because the notes on the staff change depending on what clef I give it as well as what key signature I give it. I will always know that a line to the next line, or a space to the next space, will be a third of some sort, but I only know what kind of third (and also what the notes are) if I am given more information, namely clef and key signature.
answered 40 mins ago
LSM07LSM07
844413
It DOES preserve intervals (visually). What it does NOT tell you is whether those intervals are major or minor (or augmented or diminished). The distance of a space to its adjacent line will always be a second of some sort. This is because in part of history (which requires a discussion of Church modes and the history of notation), and partly because the notes on the staff change depending on what clef I give it as well as what key signature I give it. I will always know that a line to the next line, or a space to the next space, will be a third of some sort, but I only know what kind of third (and also what the notes are) if I am given more information, namely clef and key signature.
answered 40 mins ago
LSM07LSM07
844413
answered 40 mins ago
LSM07LSM07
844413
answered 40 mins ago
LSM07LSM07
844413
answered 40 mins ago
LSM07LSM07
844413
844413
1
How can a different clef affect anything except which notes are where?
– Tim
9 mins ago
Because the notes decide whether the intervals are major/minor/aug/dim. From the center line on the staff to the first space above it always measures a second. In treble clef, it's a minor second (B -> C), but in bass and alto clef it's a major second (D -> E and C -> D respectively). If we change the key sig to, for example, A major, the previous intervals become a major second (B -> C#), major second (D -> E), and minor second (C# -> D).
– LSM07
2 mins ago
add a comment |
1
How can a different clef affect anything except which notes are where?
– Tim
9 mins ago
Because the notes decide whether the intervals are major/minor/aug/dim. From the center line on the staff to the first space above it always measures a second. In treble clef, it's a minor second (B -> C), but in bass and alto clef it's a major second (D -> E and C -> D respectively). If we change the key sig to, for example, A major, the previous intervals become a major second (B -> C#), major second (D -> E), and minor second (C# -> D).
– LSM07
2 mins ago
1
1
How can a different clef affect anything except which notes are where?
– Tim
9 mins ago
How can a different clef affect anything except which notes are where?
– Tim
9 mins ago
Because the notes decide whether the intervals are major/minor/aug/dim. From the center line on the staff to the first space above it always measures a second. In treble clef, it's a minor second (B -> C), but in bass and alto clef it's a major second (D -> E and C -> D respectively). If we change the key sig to, for example, A major, the previous intervals become a major second (B -> C#), major second (D -> E), and minor second (C# -> D).
– LSM07
2 mins ago
Because the notes decide whether the intervals are major/minor/aug/dim. From the center line on the staff to the first space above it always measures a second. In treble clef, it's a minor second (B -> C), but in bass and alto clef it's a major second (D -> E and C -> D respectively). If we change the key sig to, for example, A major, the previous intervals become a major second (B -> C#), major second (D -> E), and minor second (C# -> D).
– LSM07
2 mins ago
add a comment |
It's actually easier to find 3rds and 5ths. 3rds are on the next line or space, and 5ths are on the next but one. As in F is on bottom space in treble clef, A (3rd higher) is on the next space. In key E, with 4#, E is on the bottom line, G# (3rd) is on the nexy line up, and B (5th) is on the next line up from that. (Next but one from E). Once the key signature is established - it's at the beginning of each line - there's no problem. I think if there was always a problem for the last few hundred years, something would have been changed.
answered 46 mins ago
TimTim
104k10107261
I'm not saying that its a huge issue; more rather it's missed a chance to make the intervals visually uniform (including the sharps and flats).
– SigmaPhi
35 mins ago
"...if there was a ... problem for the last few hundred years..." hah. Have you seen how humanity solves other long-standing problems? :-( .
– Carl Witthoft
34 mins ago
1
@CarlWitthoft - ah, but musos, being part of deity rather than humanity, work at a different level...
– Tim
27 mins ago
add a comment |
It's actually easier to find 3rds and 5ths. 3rds are on the next line or space, and 5ths are on the next but one. As in F is on bottom space in treble clef, A (3rd higher) is on the next space. In key E, with 4#, E is on the bottom line, G# (3rd) is on the nexy line up, and B (5th) is on the next line up from that. (Next but one from E). Once the key signature is established - it's at the beginning of each line - there's no problem. I think if there was always a problem for the last few hundred years, something would have been changed.
answered 46 mins ago
TimTim
104k10107261
I'm not saying that its a huge issue; more rather it's missed a chance to make the intervals visually uniform (including the sharps and flats).
– SigmaPhi
35 mins ago
"...if there was a ... problem for the last few hundred years..." hah. Have you seen how humanity solves other long-standing problems? :-( .
– Carl Witthoft
34 mins ago
1
@CarlWitthoft - ah, but musos, being part of deity rather than humanity, work at a different level...
– Tim
27 mins ago
add a comment |
It's actually easier to find 3rds and 5ths. 3rds are on the next line or space, and 5ths are on the next but one. As in F is on bottom space in treble clef, A (3rd higher) is on the next space. In key E, with 4#, E is on the bottom line, G# (3rd) is on the nexy line up, and B (5th) is on the next line up from that. (Next but one from E). Once the key signature is established - it's at the beginning of each line - there's no problem. I think if there was always a problem for the last few hundred years, something would have been changed.
answered 46 mins ago
TimTim
104k10107261
It's actually easier to find 3rds and 5ths. 3rds are on the next line or space, and 5ths are on the next but one. As in F is on bottom space in treble clef, A (3rd higher) is on the next space. In key E, with 4#, E is on the bottom line, G# (3rd) is on the nexy line up, and B (5th) is on the next line up from that. (Next but one from E). Once the key signature is established - it's at the beginning of each line - there's no problem. I think if there was always a problem for the last few hundred years, something would have been changed.
answered 46 mins ago
TimTim
104k10107261
answered 46 mins ago
TimTim
104k10107261
answered 46 mins ago
TimTim
104k10107261
answered 46 mins ago
TimTim
104k10107261
104k10107261
I'm not saying that its a huge issue; more rather it's missed a chance to make the intervals visually uniform (including the sharps and flats).
– SigmaPhi
35 mins ago
"...if there was a ... problem for the last few hundred years..." hah. Have you seen how humanity solves other long-standing problems? :-( .
– Carl Witthoft
34 mins ago
1
@CarlWitthoft - ah, but musos, being part of deity rather than humanity, work at a different level...
– Tim
27 mins ago
add a comment |
I'm not saying that its a huge issue; more rather it's missed a chance to make the intervals visually uniform (including the sharps and flats).
– SigmaPhi
35 mins ago
"...if there was a ... problem for the last few hundred years..." hah. Have you seen how humanity solves other long-standing problems? :-( .
– Carl Witthoft
34 mins ago
1
@CarlWitthoft - ah, but musos, being part of deity rather than humanity, work at a different level...
– Tim
27 mins ago
I'm not saying that its a huge issue; more rather it's missed a chance to make the intervals visually uniform (including the sharps and flats).
– SigmaPhi
35 mins ago
I'm not saying that its a huge issue; more rather it's missed a chance to make the intervals visually uniform (including the sharps and flats).
– SigmaPhi
35 mins ago
"...if there was a ... problem for the last few hundred years..." hah. Have you seen how humanity solves other long-standing problems? :-( .
– Carl Witthoft
34 mins ago
"...if there was a ... problem for the last few hundred years..." hah. Have you seen how humanity solves other long-standing problems? :-( .
– Carl Witthoft
34 mins ago
1
1
@CarlWitthoft - ah, but musos, being part of deity rather than humanity, work at a different level...
– Tim
27 mins ago
@CarlWitthoft - ah, but musos, being part of deity rather than humanity, work at a different level...
– Tim
27 mins ago
add a comment |
A shallow answer as to why standard notation does not preserve intervals visually in terms of numbers of semitones is that modern standard notation evolved around the ideas that:
- the octave is split into 12 identifiable notes, each a semitone apart
- every particular piece of music would be based around a diatonic scale, which represents a 7-note subset of those 12 identifiable notes in the octave in a particular pattern which itself has uneven sizes of intervals.
The stave in standard notation without a key signature depicts the C major scale and its modes (all of which are Diatonic scales). Adding a key signature allows it to depict other diatonic scales, and the use of accidentals allows all possibilities in the 12-note (chromatic) scale.
answered 35 mins ago
topo mortotopo morto
26.8k246106
add a comment |
A shallow answer as to why standard notation does not preserve intervals visually in terms of numbers of semitones is that modern standard notation evolved around the ideas that:
- the octave is split into 12 identifiable notes, each a semitone apart
- every particular piece of music would be based around a diatonic scale, which represents a 7-note subset of those 12 identifiable notes in the octave in a particular pattern which itself has uneven sizes of intervals.
The stave in standard notation without a key signature depicts the C major scale and its modes (all of which are Diatonic scales). Adding a key signature allows it to depict other diatonic scales, and the use of accidentals allows all possibilities in the 12-note (chromatic) scale.
answered 35 mins ago
topo mortotopo morto
26.8k246106
add a comment |
A shallow answer as to why standard notation does not preserve intervals visually in terms of numbers of semitones is that modern standard notation evolved around the ideas that:
- the octave is split into 12 identifiable notes, each a semitone apart
- every particular piece of music would be based around a diatonic scale, which represents a 7-note subset of those 12 identifiable notes in the octave in a particular pattern which itself has uneven sizes of intervals.
The stave in standard notation without a key signature depicts the C major scale and its modes (all of which are Diatonic scales). Adding a key signature allows it to depict other diatonic scales, and the use of accidentals allows all possibilities in the 12-note (chromatic) scale.
answered 35 mins ago
topo mortotopo morto
26.8k246106
A shallow answer as to why standard notation does not preserve intervals visually in terms of numbers of semitones is that modern standard notation evolved around the ideas that:
- the octave is split into 12 identifiable notes, each a semitone apart
- every particular piece of music would be based around a diatonic scale, which represents a 7-note subset of those 12 identifiable notes in the octave in a particular pattern which itself has uneven sizes of intervals.
The stave in standard notation without a key signature depicts the C major scale and its modes (all of which are Diatonic scales). Adding a key signature allows it to depict other diatonic scales, and the use of accidentals allows all possibilities in the 12-note (chromatic) scale.
answered 35 mins ago
topo mortotopo morto
26.8k246106
answered 35 mins ago
topo mortotopo morto
26.8k246106
answered 35 mins ago
topo mortotopo morto
26.8k246106
answered 35 mins ago
topo mortotopo morto
26.8k246106
26.8k246106
add a comment |
add a comment |
SigmaPhi is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
SigmaPhi is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
SigmaPhi is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
SigmaPhi is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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Possible duplicate of Why is C the base note of standard notation and keys?
– Carl Witthoft
53 mins ago
1
I'm asking about intervals, not why C is the base note.
– SigmaPhi
51 mins ago
You shouldn't be identifying intervals by spatial separation in the first place. You'll have just as many errors w/ accidentals as you are attempting to avoid here. The reason for standard notation is to make it easy to play, not to "analyze"
– Carl Witthoft
51 mins ago
I would hope there's enough information at the linked question to provide you with, if nothing else, hints as to existing books on music notation and history.
– Carl Witthoft
50 mins ago
I guess my intent with the intervals was phrased badly. What i intended was, wouldn't it be easier to identify chords of the same type (ex: minor chords, Am, Fm, etc ... would all look the same but just moved up or down, instead of only some having sharps/flats and some not) and other things aswell. Anyway, I'll have a look at the sources you gave.
– SigmaPhi
44 mins ago