How do ground effect vehicles perform turns?












21












$begingroup$


Considering that Wing-In-Ground-Effect (WIGE) vehicles fly with a rather low ground clearance, there is not much room for banking. How do WIGE vehicles turn? Do they turn just very slow with a low bank angle? Or do they turn uncoordinated with wings level?



I can imagine that banking has an opposite effect: the raised wing has less ground effect so more drag so it creates some countering yaw moment. Is this correct?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 8




    $begingroup$
    "carefully" ....
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    Wouldn't the raised wing have less drag, because it's experiencing less ground effect, ergo producing less lift, ergo generating less induced drag?
    $endgroup$
    – Sean
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Sean, no: the essence of the ground effect that you get more lift for the same drag. Or same lfit with less drag. Also, if you are in a sustained banked turn, then by definition both half-wings produce the same lift - otherwise you'd be rolling with acceleration. It follows that the surface that is less in ground effect will have more drag. (Plus there are usual effects due to ailerons position etc. - which usually contribute with the same sign).
    $endgroup$
    – Zeus
    23 hours ago
















21












$begingroup$


Considering that Wing-In-Ground-Effect (WIGE) vehicles fly with a rather low ground clearance, there is not much room for banking. How do WIGE vehicles turn? Do they turn just very slow with a low bank angle? Or do they turn uncoordinated with wings level?



I can imagine that banking has an opposite effect: the raised wing has less ground effect so more drag so it creates some countering yaw moment. Is this correct?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 8




    $begingroup$
    "carefully" ....
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    Wouldn't the raised wing have less drag, because it's experiencing less ground effect, ergo producing less lift, ergo generating less induced drag?
    $endgroup$
    – Sean
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Sean, no: the essence of the ground effect that you get more lift for the same drag. Or same lfit with less drag. Also, if you are in a sustained banked turn, then by definition both half-wings produce the same lift - otherwise you'd be rolling with acceleration. It follows that the surface that is less in ground effect will have more drag. (Plus there are usual effects due to ailerons position etc. - which usually contribute with the same sign).
    $endgroup$
    – Zeus
    23 hours ago














21












21








21





$begingroup$


Considering that Wing-In-Ground-Effect (WIGE) vehicles fly with a rather low ground clearance, there is not much room for banking. How do WIGE vehicles turn? Do they turn just very slow with a low bank angle? Or do they turn uncoordinated with wings level?



I can imagine that banking has an opposite effect: the raised wing has less ground effect so more drag so it creates some countering yaw moment. Is this correct?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




Considering that Wing-In-Ground-Effect (WIGE) vehicles fly with a rather low ground clearance, there is not much room for banking. How do WIGE vehicles turn? Do they turn just very slow with a low bank angle? Or do they turn uncoordinated with wings level?



I can imagine that banking has an opposite effect: the raised wing has less ground effect so more drag so it creates some countering yaw moment. Is this correct?







aerodynamics ground-effect






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 17 hours ago









Zeiss Ikon

3,452418




3,452418










asked yesterday









FlorianFlorian

1,9442725




1,9442725








  • 8




    $begingroup$
    "carefully" ....
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    Wouldn't the raised wing have less drag, because it's experiencing less ground effect, ergo producing less lift, ergo generating less induced drag?
    $endgroup$
    – Sean
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Sean, no: the essence of the ground effect that you get more lift for the same drag. Or same lfit with less drag. Also, if you are in a sustained banked turn, then by definition both half-wings produce the same lift - otherwise you'd be rolling with acceleration. It follows that the surface that is less in ground effect will have more drag. (Plus there are usual effects due to ailerons position etc. - which usually contribute with the same sign).
    $endgroup$
    – Zeus
    23 hours ago














  • 8




    $begingroup$
    "carefully" ....
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    Wouldn't the raised wing have less drag, because it's experiencing less ground effect, ergo producing less lift, ergo generating less induced drag?
    $endgroup$
    – Sean
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Sean, no: the essence of the ground effect that you get more lift for the same drag. Or same lfit with less drag. Also, if you are in a sustained banked turn, then by definition both half-wings produce the same lift - otherwise you'd be rolling with acceleration. It follows that the surface that is less in ground effect will have more drag. (Plus there are usual effects due to ailerons position etc. - which usually contribute with the same sign).
    $endgroup$
    – Zeus
    23 hours ago








8




8




$begingroup$
"carefully" ....
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday




$begingroup$
"carefully" ....
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday












$begingroup$
Wouldn't the raised wing have less drag, because it's experiencing less ground effect, ergo producing less lift, ergo generating less induced drag?
$endgroup$
– Sean
yesterday




$begingroup$
Wouldn't the raised wing have less drag, because it's experiencing less ground effect, ergo producing less lift, ergo generating less induced drag?
$endgroup$
– Sean
yesterday




1




1




$begingroup$
@Sean, no: the essence of the ground effect that you get more lift for the same drag. Or same lfit with less drag. Also, if you are in a sustained banked turn, then by definition both half-wings produce the same lift - otherwise you'd be rolling with acceleration. It follows that the surface that is less in ground effect will have more drag. (Plus there are usual effects due to ailerons position etc. - which usually contribute with the same sign).
$endgroup$
– Zeus
23 hours ago




$begingroup$
@Sean, no: the essence of the ground effect that you get more lift for the same drag. Or same lfit with less drag. Also, if you are in a sustained banked turn, then by definition both half-wings produce the same lift - otherwise you'd be rolling with acceleration. It follows that the surface that is less in ground effect will have more drag. (Plus there are usual effects due to ailerons position etc. - which usually contribute with the same sign).
$endgroup$
– Zeus
23 hours ago










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















16












$begingroup$

It turns like an airplane by tilting the lift vector. Watch carefully in this video, especially about 50 seconds in, and you can see the craft is turning by banking.



enter image description here



It just can't bank very hard unless it climbs a little higher. This is one of the problems of GE aircraft; they aren't very maneuverable because they can only make gentle turns at the normal cruising level close to the surface.



The alternative to banking, if you don't have enough room to roll, is skidding, where you are redirecting the thrust vector and also generating some lateral force from the sideways presentation of the craft's body. Basically like a hovercraft. A lot less efficient though because of the drag rise from the skid. Some of those really big GE machines like the Ekranoplan would have used skidding (kind of obvious from the huge rudder that it's designed to skid) and maybe a little bit of bank.



It's probably a good thing that this concept has not been all that successful. If the world was full of these types of machines crisscrossing every which way over oceans and lakes, all at the same level and going pretty fast, you probably have a lot more mid-airs than you get with airplanes, or boat collisions for that matter.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
    $endgroup$
    – rcgldr
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
    $endgroup$
    – John K
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
    $endgroup$
    – FreeMan
    16 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @FreeMan - right :)
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    16 hours ago











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1 Answer
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active

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1 Answer
1






active

oldest

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active

oldest

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active

oldest

votes









16












$begingroup$

It turns like an airplane by tilting the lift vector. Watch carefully in this video, especially about 50 seconds in, and you can see the craft is turning by banking.



enter image description here



It just can't bank very hard unless it climbs a little higher. This is one of the problems of GE aircraft; they aren't very maneuverable because they can only make gentle turns at the normal cruising level close to the surface.



The alternative to banking, if you don't have enough room to roll, is skidding, where you are redirecting the thrust vector and also generating some lateral force from the sideways presentation of the craft's body. Basically like a hovercraft. A lot less efficient though because of the drag rise from the skid. Some of those really big GE machines like the Ekranoplan would have used skidding (kind of obvious from the huge rudder that it's designed to skid) and maybe a little bit of bank.



It's probably a good thing that this concept has not been all that successful. If the world was full of these types of machines crisscrossing every which way over oceans and lakes, all at the same level and going pretty fast, you probably have a lot more mid-airs than you get with airplanes, or boat collisions for that matter.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
    $endgroup$
    – rcgldr
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
    $endgroup$
    – John K
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
    $endgroup$
    – FreeMan
    16 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @FreeMan - right :)
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    16 hours ago
















16












$begingroup$

It turns like an airplane by tilting the lift vector. Watch carefully in this video, especially about 50 seconds in, and you can see the craft is turning by banking.



enter image description here



It just can't bank very hard unless it climbs a little higher. This is one of the problems of GE aircraft; they aren't very maneuverable because they can only make gentle turns at the normal cruising level close to the surface.



The alternative to banking, if you don't have enough room to roll, is skidding, where you are redirecting the thrust vector and also generating some lateral force from the sideways presentation of the craft's body. Basically like a hovercraft. A lot less efficient though because of the drag rise from the skid. Some of those really big GE machines like the Ekranoplan would have used skidding (kind of obvious from the huge rudder that it's designed to skid) and maybe a little bit of bank.



It's probably a good thing that this concept has not been all that successful. If the world was full of these types of machines crisscrossing every which way over oceans and lakes, all at the same level and going pretty fast, you probably have a lot more mid-airs than you get with airplanes, or boat collisions for that matter.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
    $endgroup$
    – rcgldr
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
    $endgroup$
    – John K
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
    $endgroup$
    – FreeMan
    16 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @FreeMan - right :)
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    16 hours ago














16












16








16





$begingroup$

It turns like an airplane by tilting the lift vector. Watch carefully in this video, especially about 50 seconds in, and you can see the craft is turning by banking.



enter image description here



It just can't bank very hard unless it climbs a little higher. This is one of the problems of GE aircraft; they aren't very maneuverable because they can only make gentle turns at the normal cruising level close to the surface.



The alternative to banking, if you don't have enough room to roll, is skidding, where you are redirecting the thrust vector and also generating some lateral force from the sideways presentation of the craft's body. Basically like a hovercraft. A lot less efficient though because of the drag rise from the skid. Some of those really big GE machines like the Ekranoplan would have used skidding (kind of obvious from the huge rudder that it's designed to skid) and maybe a little bit of bank.



It's probably a good thing that this concept has not been all that successful. If the world was full of these types of machines crisscrossing every which way over oceans and lakes, all at the same level and going pretty fast, you probably have a lot more mid-airs than you get with airplanes, or boat collisions for that matter.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



It turns like an airplane by tilting the lift vector. Watch carefully in this video, especially about 50 seconds in, and you can see the craft is turning by banking.



enter image description here



It just can't bank very hard unless it climbs a little higher. This is one of the problems of GE aircraft; they aren't very maneuverable because they can only make gentle turns at the normal cruising level close to the surface.



The alternative to banking, if you don't have enough room to roll, is skidding, where you are redirecting the thrust vector and also generating some lateral force from the sideways presentation of the craft's body. Basically like a hovercraft. A lot less efficient though because of the drag rise from the skid. Some of those really big GE machines like the Ekranoplan would have used skidding (kind of obvious from the huge rudder that it's designed to skid) and maybe a little bit of bank.



It's probably a good thing that this concept has not been all that successful. If the world was full of these types of machines crisscrossing every which way over oceans and lakes, all at the same level and going pretty fast, you probably have a lot more mid-airs than you get with airplanes, or boat collisions for that matter.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 20 hours ago









ymb1

68.3k7216363




68.3k7216363










answered yesterday









John KJohn K

23k13267




23k13267












  • $begingroup$
    How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
    $endgroup$
    – rcgldr
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
    $endgroup$
    – John K
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
    $endgroup$
    – FreeMan
    16 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @FreeMan - right :)
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    16 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
    $endgroup$
    – rcgldr
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
    $endgroup$
    – John K
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
    $endgroup$
    – FreeMan
    16 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @FreeMan - right :)
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    16 hours ago
















$begingroup$
How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
$endgroup$
– rcgldr
yesterday




$begingroup$
How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
$endgroup$
– rcgldr
yesterday












$begingroup$
It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday




$begingroup$
It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday




2




2




$begingroup$
@rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
$endgroup$
– John K
yesterday




$begingroup$
@rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
$endgroup$
– John K
yesterday




1




1




$begingroup$
Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
$endgroup$
– FreeMan
16 hours ago




$begingroup$
Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
$endgroup$
– FreeMan
16 hours ago












$begingroup$
@FreeMan - right :)
$endgroup$
– Fattie
16 hours ago




$begingroup$
@FreeMan - right :)
$endgroup$
– Fattie
16 hours ago


















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Interview With Slayer Guitarist Jeff Hanneman”originalet”Thinking Out Loud: Slayer's Kerry King on hair metal, Satan and being polite””Slayer Lyrics””Slayer - Biography””Most influential artists for extreme metal music””Slayer - Reign in Blood””Slayer guitarist Jeff Hanneman dies aged 49””Slatanic Slaughter: A Tribute to Slayer””Gateway to Hell: A Tribute to Slayer””Covered In Blood””Slayer: The Origins of Thrash in San Francisco, CA.””Why They Rule - #6 Slayer”originalet”Guitar World's 100 Greatest Heavy Metal Guitarists Of All Time”originalet”The fans have spoken: Slayer comes out on top in readers' polls”originalet”Tribute to Jeff Hanneman (1964-2013)””Lamb Of God Frontman: We Sound Like A Slayer Rip-Off””BEHEMOTH Frontman Pays Tribute To SLAYER's JEFF HANNEMAN””Slayer, Hatebreed Doing Double Duty On This Year's Ozzfest””System of a Down””Lacuna Coil’s Andrea Ferro Talks Influences, Skateboarding, Band Origins + More””Slayer - Reign in Blood””Into The Lungs of Hell””Slayer rules - en utställning om fans””Slayer and Their Fans Slashed Through a No-Holds-Barred Night at Gas Monkey””Home””Slayer””Gold & Platinum - The Big 4 Live from Sofia, Bulgaria””Exclusive! Interview With Slayer Guitarist Kerry King””2008-02-23: Wiltern, Los Angeles, CA, USA””Slayer's Kerry King To Perform With Megadeth Tonight! - Oct. 21, 2010”originalet”Dave Lombardo - Biography”Slayer Case DismissedArkiveradUltimate Classic Rock: Slayer guitarist Jeff Hanneman dead at 49.”Slayer: "We could never do any thing like Some Kind Of Monster..."””Cannibal Corpse'S Pat O'Brien Will Step In As Slayer'S Guest Guitarist | The Official Slayer Site”originalet”Slayer Wins 'Best Metal' Grammy Award””Slayer Guitarist Jeff Hanneman Dies””Kerrang! Awards 2006 Blog: Kerrang! Hall Of Fame””Kerrang! Awards 2013: Kerrang! Legend”originalet”Metallica, Slayer, Iron Maien Among Winners At Metal Hammer Awards””Metal Hammer Golden Gods Awards””Bullet For My Valentine Booed At Metal Hammer Golden Gods Awards””Metal Storm Awards 2006””Metal Storm Awards 2015””Slayer's Concert History””Slayer - Relationships””Slayer - Releases”Slayers officiella webbplatsSlayer på MusicBrainzOfficiell webbplatsSlayerSlayerr1373445760000 0001 1540 47353068615-5086262726cb13906545x(data)6033143kn20030215029