Can a stoichiometric mixture of oxygen and methane exist as a liquid at standard pressure and some (low) temperature? The Next CEO of Stack OverflowHow to determine the vapor pressure of a glycerine and propylene glycol mixture?Given the volumes: determine the pH and the final temperature of a mixture knowing only the initial pH and the temperature of the un-mixed componentsCan a solid and liquid be miscible?What elements and/or substances without water are liquid at room temperature?Using vapor mole fraction and pressure to determine liquid mole fractionHow could I find the solubility of hydrocarbons such as iso- and n-Butane in liquid Methane?Interpretation of miscibility curvesIs vapour pressure of a liquid solution constant at a given temperature, no matter the size of closed container and amount of liquid taken?Properties of azeotropesIs there a stable and non-toxic hydro-nitrogen-oxygen compound that's liquid in room temperature?
Do I need to write [sic] when including a quotation with a number less than 10 that isn't written out?
Read/write a pipe-delimited file line by line with some simple text manipulation
Is there a rule of thumb for determining the amount one should accept for a settlement offer?
How badly should I try to prevent a user from XSSing themselves?
Was the Stack Exchange "Happy April Fools" page fitting with the 90s code?
Man transported from Alternate World into ours by a Neutrino Detector
Gauss' Posthumous Publications?
Arrows in tikz Markov chain diagram overlap
Is a linearly independent set whose span is dense a Schauder basis?
Free fall ellipse or parabola?
My ex-girlfriend uses my Apple ID to login to her iPad, do I have to give her my Apple ID password to reset it?
What difference does it make matching a word with/without a trailing whitespace?
Direct Implications Between USA and UK in Event of No-Deal Brexit
What is the difference between 'contrib' and 'non-free' packages repositories?
How to compactly explain secondary and tertiary characters without resorting to stereotypes?
Ising model simulation
Identify and count spells (Distinctive events within each group)
Why did the Drakh emissary look so blurred in S04:E11 "Lines of Communication"?
MT "will strike" & LXX "will watch carefully" (Gen 3:15)?
"Eavesdropping" vs "Listen in on"
Calculate the Mean mean of two numbers
Could a dragon use its wings to swim?
What steps are necessary to read a Modern SSD in Medieval Europe?
Planeswalker Ability and Death Timing
Can a stoichiometric mixture of oxygen and methane exist as a liquid at standard pressure and some (low) temperature?
The Next CEO of Stack OverflowHow to determine the vapor pressure of a glycerine and propylene glycol mixture?Given the volumes: determine the pH and the final temperature of a mixture knowing only the initial pH and the temperature of the un-mixed componentsCan a solid and liquid be miscible?What elements and/or substances without water are liquid at room temperature?Using vapor mole fraction and pressure to determine liquid mole fractionHow could I find the solubility of hydrocarbons such as iso- and n-Butane in liquid Methane?Interpretation of miscibility curvesIs vapour pressure of a liquid solution constant at a given temperature, no matter the size of closed container and amount of liquid taken?Properties of azeotropesIs there a stable and non-toxic hydro-nitrogen-oxygen compound that's liquid in room temperature?
$begingroup$
This answer to the question Pre-mixing cryogenic fuels and using only one fuel tank written by a non-chemist (me) begins with:
At STP:
- LOX's boiling point is 90.19 K
- Methane's freezing point is 90.7 K
This does not a priori prove that a solution of the two can not exist. However it does mean that they can not be handled as liquids at the same temperature, making mixing the two more difficult.
We know that liquid air exists which shows that LOX and LN2 can mix together. But methane is an organic molecules and we know that heavier $textC_n textH_2n+2$ hydrocarbons include oils and waxes don't like to dissolve in non-organic solvents.
A stoichiometric mixture of oxygen and methane would be 2:1 molar:
$$ce 2O2 + CH4 -> CO2 + 2H2O $$
Though the two can not be conveniently maintained as liquids at the same temperature, can a stoichiometric mixture of the two exist as a liquid at some (low) temperature and standard pressure?
solutions mixtures fuel liquids
asked Mar 22 at 1:18
uhohuhoh
1,775840
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This answer to the question Pre-mixing cryogenic fuels and using only one fuel tank written by a non-chemist (me) begins with:
At STP:
- LOX's boiling point is 90.19 K
- Methane's freezing point is 90.7 K
This does not a priori prove that a solution of the two can not exist. However it does mean that they can not be handled as liquids at the same temperature, making mixing the two more difficult.
We know that liquid air exists which shows that LOX and LN2 can mix together. But methane is an organic molecules and we know that heavier $textC_n textH_2n+2$ hydrocarbons include oils and waxes don't like to dissolve in non-organic solvents.
A stoichiometric mixture of oxygen and methane would be 2:1 molar:
$$ce 2O2 + CH4 -> CO2 + 2H2O $$
Though the two can not be conveniently maintained as liquids at the same temperature, can a stoichiometric mixture of the two exist as a liquid at some (low) temperature and standard pressure?
solutions mixtures fuel liquids
asked Mar 22 at 1:18
uhohuhoh
1,775840
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
I am not sure if both thesolutionsandmixturestags apply here.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 1:18
3
$begingroup$
With an appropriate heat of mixing, the solution might well be possible. Not sure if there is literature on this mixture, but if I have time I’ll give it a whirl...
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 1:38
1
$begingroup$
@JonCuster I hope "give it a whirl" doesn't mean you're going to try to mix the two!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 1:40
3
$begingroup$
just trying to whip it into a nice froth for my coffee in the morning...
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 1:41
$begingroup$
Is methane "heavier" (more dense) than $O_2$ etc at same low T? Why do I doubt this? This is not a primary source but suggests the opposite? Methane is certainly more polarizable but Mw is lower. My guess is the component with the higher melting point (methane) is perfectly soluble in the liquid. The entropy of mixing is probably enough to drive miscibility. As the answer suggests, they form ideal solutions at sufficiently low T.
$endgroup$
– Night Writer
Mar 22 at 13:05
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This answer to the question Pre-mixing cryogenic fuels and using only one fuel tank written by a non-chemist (me) begins with:
At STP:
- LOX's boiling point is 90.19 K
- Methane's freezing point is 90.7 K
This does not a priori prove that a solution of the two can not exist. However it does mean that they can not be handled as liquids at the same temperature, making mixing the two more difficult.
We know that liquid air exists which shows that LOX and LN2 can mix together. But methane is an organic molecules and we know that heavier $textC_n textH_2n+2$ hydrocarbons include oils and waxes don't like to dissolve in non-organic solvents.
A stoichiometric mixture of oxygen and methane would be 2:1 molar:
$$ce 2O2 + CH4 -> CO2 + 2H2O $$
Though the two can not be conveniently maintained as liquids at the same temperature, can a stoichiometric mixture of the two exist as a liquid at some (low) temperature and standard pressure?
solutions mixtures fuel liquids
asked Mar 22 at 1:18
uhohuhoh
1,775840
$endgroup$
This answer to the question Pre-mixing cryogenic fuels and using only one fuel tank written by a non-chemist (me) begins with:
At STP:
- LOX's boiling point is 90.19 K
- Methane's freezing point is 90.7 K
This does not a priori prove that a solution of the two can not exist. However it does mean that they can not be handled as liquids at the same temperature, making mixing the two more difficult.
We know that liquid air exists which shows that LOX and LN2 can mix together. But methane is an organic molecules and we know that heavier $textC_n textH_2n+2$ hydrocarbons include oils and waxes don't like to dissolve in non-organic solvents.
A stoichiometric mixture of oxygen and methane would be 2:1 molar:
$$ce 2O2 + CH4 -> CO2 + 2H2O $$
Though the two can not be conveniently maintained as liquids at the same temperature, can a stoichiometric mixture of the two exist as a liquid at some (low) temperature and standard pressure?
solutions mixtures fuel liquids
solutions mixtures fuel liquids
asked Mar 22 at 1:18
uhohuhoh
1,775840
asked Mar 22 at 1:18
uhohuhoh
1,775840
edited Mar 22 at 1:24
uhoh
asked Mar 22 at 1:18
uhohuhoh
1,775840
asked Mar 22 at 1:18
uhohuhoh
1,775840
asked Mar 22 at 1:18
uhohuhoh
1,775840
1,775840
2
$begingroup$
I am not sure if both thesolutionsandmixturestags apply here.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 1:18
3
$begingroup$
With an appropriate heat of mixing, the solution might well be possible. Not sure if there is literature on this mixture, but if I have time I’ll give it a whirl...
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 1:38
1
$begingroup$
@JonCuster I hope "give it a whirl" doesn't mean you're going to try to mix the two!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 1:40
3
$begingroup$
just trying to whip it into a nice froth for my coffee in the morning...
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 1:41
$begingroup$
Is methane "heavier" (more dense) than $O_2$ etc at same low T? Why do I doubt this? This is not a primary source but suggests the opposite? Methane is certainly more polarizable but Mw is lower. My guess is the component with the higher melting point (methane) is perfectly soluble in the liquid. The entropy of mixing is probably enough to drive miscibility. As the answer suggests, they form ideal solutions at sufficiently low T.
$endgroup$
– Night Writer
Mar 22 at 13:05
add a comment |
2
$begingroup$
I am not sure if both thesolutionsandmixturestags apply here.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 1:18
3
$begingroup$
With an appropriate heat of mixing, the solution might well be possible. Not sure if there is literature on this mixture, but if I have time I’ll give it a whirl...
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 1:38
1
$begingroup$
@JonCuster I hope "give it a whirl" doesn't mean you're going to try to mix the two!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 1:40
3
$begingroup$
just trying to whip it into a nice froth for my coffee in the morning...
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 1:41
$begingroup$
Is methane "heavier" (more dense) than $O_2$ etc at same low T? Why do I doubt this? This is not a primary source but suggests the opposite? Methane is certainly more polarizable but Mw is lower. My guess is the component with the higher melting point (methane) is perfectly soluble in the liquid. The entropy of mixing is probably enough to drive miscibility. As the answer suggests, they form ideal solutions at sufficiently low T.
$endgroup$
– Night Writer
Mar 22 at 13:05
2
2
$begingroup$
I am not sure if both the
solutions and mixtures tags apply here.$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 1:18
$begingroup$
I am not sure if both the
solutions and mixtures tags apply here.$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 1:18
3
3
$begingroup$
With an appropriate heat of mixing, the solution might well be possible. Not sure if there is literature on this mixture, but if I have time I’ll give it a whirl...
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 1:38
$begingroup$
With an appropriate heat of mixing, the solution might well be possible. Not sure if there is literature on this mixture, but if I have time I’ll give it a whirl...
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 1:38
1
1
$begingroup$
@JonCuster I hope "give it a whirl" doesn't mean you're going to try to mix the two!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 1:40
$begingroup$
@JonCuster I hope "give it a whirl" doesn't mean you're going to try to mix the two!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 1:40
3
3
$begingroup$
just trying to whip it into a nice froth for my coffee in the morning...
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 1:41
$begingroup$
just trying to whip it into a nice froth for my coffee in the morning...
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 1:41
$begingroup$
Is methane "heavier" (more dense) than $O_2$ etc at same low T? Why do I doubt this? This is not a primary source but suggests the opposite? Methane is certainly more polarizable but Mw is lower. My guess is the component with the higher melting point (methane) is perfectly soluble in the liquid. The entropy of mixing is probably enough to drive miscibility. As the answer suggests, they form ideal solutions at sufficiently low T.
$endgroup$
– Night Writer
Mar 22 at 13:05
$begingroup$
Is methane "heavier" (more dense) than $O_2$ etc at same low T? Why do I doubt this? This is not a primary source but suggests the opposite? Methane is certainly more polarizable but Mw is lower. My guess is the component with the higher melting point (methane) is perfectly soluble in the liquid. The entropy of mixing is probably enough to drive miscibility. As the answer suggests, they form ideal solutions at sufficiently low T.
$endgroup$
– Night Writer
Mar 22 at 13:05
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
There's a NASA report that looks into this: "ON THE SOLUBILITIES AND RATES OF SOLUTION OF GASES IN LIQUID METHANE", Hibbard and Evans, 1968 and concludes that such mixtures are possible.
Starting on page 8:
Figure 5(a) presents the curves for oxygen, argon, carbon monoxide,
and nitrogen. Also shown are the two experimental values for nitrogen.
Agreement is excellent at 99.83K and good at 110.9K. The curves for
these gases show that solubility should decrease with increasing
temperature and the nitrogen data confirm this. This figure shows the
mole fraction solubility of oxygen to be 1.0 at 90K. This means that
oxygen, which has a normal boiling temperature of 90.1K would
continuously condense in, and be miscible in all proportions, with
liquid methane at 90K. This is confirmed by reference 11 where, in a
study of the solubility of methane in liquid oxygen, it was concluded
that these formed a near-ideal solution at -297 F (90K)
(emphasis added) Reference 11 mentioned in there is "Hydrocarbon-Oxygen Systems Solubility", McKinley and Wang, 1960 (unfortunately paywalled) which also has interesting discussion of the stability (i.e. presence or absence of a tendency to explode) of various mixtures.
Figure 5 is reproduced below. Note how the solubility of oxygen rises rapidly as temperature drops.
answered Mar 22 at 4:44
Bob JacobsenBob Jacobsen
2713
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Bingo! What a great find, thank you! I think you can (should) also post an answer at the linked question as well.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 4:52
4
$begingroup$
Pre-mixing fuel and oxygen looks like a Very Bad Idea. Any spark will ignite it, as opposed to fuel stored separately. How stable is such a mixture? How likely are external events which would ignite it, like sparks? Could it be managed technically, in a rocket; e.g. can one ensure that the combustion does not back-propagate through the pumps etc.? (Should I ask a question, perhaps in the space exploration department?)
$endgroup$
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 22 at 7:10
2
$begingroup$
@PeterA.Schneider have a look at all the answers to the question linked in the first sentence of the question above.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 7:28
3
$begingroup$
On the other side of the phase diagram is sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0011227567800432/… (Hodges & Burch Cryogenics 7 112-3 (1967) where the looked at the distribution of methane between liquid and vapor phases of oxygen. A quote: "the very high solubility of methane in liquid oxygen precluded the possibility of methane precipitating from liquid oxygen". So, the would seem to mix quite nicely. Whether that is a good idea is left to the imagination (and hopefully left right there).
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 13:38
add a comment |
$begingroup$
To add to the Bob's excellent answer (and expand a bit on my comment there), I've found two other potentially interesting papers to peruse.
The first is R.J. Hodges and R.J. Burch, Cryogenics 7 112-113 (1967), titled "The equilibrium distribution of methane between the liquid and vapour phases of oxygen". They note a "very high solubility of methane in liquid oxygen", with a equilibrium distribution coefficient at 93.15K (1.348 atm of O2) of 3.356 (so about 3x more methane in the liquid than in the gas phase). However, they kept the concentration of methane below the lower explosive limit so that it would not, well, explode.
Of perhaps more interest to the OP is R.L. Every and J.O. Thieme, Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets 2(5) 787-789 (1965) titled "Liquid oxygen and liquid methane mixtures as rocket monopropellants". In the introduction the authors note that previous work shows that the liquids are miscible in all proportions above 90K. Their tests show a specific impulse of almost 300 sec, and an exhaust velocity near 6000 fps.
In addition, since "shock sensitivities were reported" in the earlier work, they did some, well, vaguely disturbing experiments (hey, it was the 60's). "Tests were conducted to determine whether violent stirring or agitation, as found in an impeller-type pump, would detonate the mixture", although they didn't have any explosions there. They then went on to quantify the impact sensitivity, dropping a weight onto a stainless steel beaker of different mixtures from increasing heights until an explosion occurred. Impact sensitivities of 20-60 ft-lb were discovered. They also looked at adiabatic compression as a cause of explosion and found the liquid oxygen/methane mixtures were safer than some other things like nitromethane (which really isn't that comforting).
So, it would appear that the idea of using the liquid mixture as a monopropellant isn't totally off the wall, but please do it somewhere far from me...
answered Mar 22 at 14:00
Jon CusterJon Custer
5,80422132
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Those were the days. ;-) This is really interesting info! You may want to also write an answer to Pre-mixing cryogenic fuels and using only one fuel tank while you're at it.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 14:06
$begingroup$
Just because it's off the wall doesn't mean the early rocket pioneers wouldn't do it. Somewhere out there is a paper describing experimental tests of the feasibility of nitroglycerine as a monopropellant, and there was a general consensus that chlorine trifluoride would make an excellent oxidizer.
$endgroup$
– Mark
Mar 22 at 20:56
$begingroup$
Shock sensitivities? As in your rocket detonates when your ullage motors push the fuel to the bottom of the tank?
$endgroup$
– Loren Pechtel
Mar 23 at 4:01
add a comment |
StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
);
);
, "mathjax-editing");
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "431"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fchemistry.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f111355%2fcan-a-stoichiometric-mixture-of-oxygen-and-methane-exist-as-a-liquid-at-standard%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
There's a NASA report that looks into this: "ON THE SOLUBILITIES AND RATES OF SOLUTION OF GASES IN LIQUID METHANE", Hibbard and Evans, 1968 and concludes that such mixtures are possible.
Starting on page 8:
Figure 5(a) presents the curves for oxygen, argon, carbon monoxide,
and nitrogen. Also shown are the two experimental values for nitrogen.
Agreement is excellent at 99.83K and good at 110.9K. The curves for
these gases show that solubility should decrease with increasing
temperature and the nitrogen data confirm this. This figure shows the
mole fraction solubility of oxygen to be 1.0 at 90K. This means that
oxygen, which has a normal boiling temperature of 90.1K would
continuously condense in, and be miscible in all proportions, with
liquid methane at 90K. This is confirmed by reference 11 where, in a
study of the solubility of methane in liquid oxygen, it was concluded
that these formed a near-ideal solution at -297 F (90K)
(emphasis added) Reference 11 mentioned in there is "Hydrocarbon-Oxygen Systems Solubility", McKinley and Wang, 1960 (unfortunately paywalled) which also has interesting discussion of the stability (i.e. presence or absence of a tendency to explode) of various mixtures.
Figure 5 is reproduced below. Note how the solubility of oxygen rises rapidly as temperature drops.
answered Mar 22 at 4:44
Bob JacobsenBob Jacobsen
2713
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Bingo! What a great find, thank you! I think you can (should) also post an answer at the linked question as well.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 4:52
4
$begingroup$
Pre-mixing fuel and oxygen looks like a Very Bad Idea. Any spark will ignite it, as opposed to fuel stored separately. How stable is such a mixture? How likely are external events which would ignite it, like sparks? Could it be managed technically, in a rocket; e.g. can one ensure that the combustion does not back-propagate through the pumps etc.? (Should I ask a question, perhaps in the space exploration department?)
$endgroup$
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 22 at 7:10
2
$begingroup$
@PeterA.Schneider have a look at all the answers to the question linked in the first sentence of the question above.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 7:28
3
$begingroup$
On the other side of the phase diagram is sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0011227567800432/… (Hodges & Burch Cryogenics 7 112-3 (1967) where the looked at the distribution of methane between liquid and vapor phases of oxygen. A quote: "the very high solubility of methane in liquid oxygen precluded the possibility of methane precipitating from liquid oxygen". So, the would seem to mix quite nicely. Whether that is a good idea is left to the imagination (and hopefully left right there).
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 13:38
add a comment |
$begingroup$
There's a NASA report that looks into this: "ON THE SOLUBILITIES AND RATES OF SOLUTION OF GASES IN LIQUID METHANE", Hibbard and Evans, 1968 and concludes that such mixtures are possible.
Starting on page 8:
Figure 5(a) presents the curves for oxygen, argon, carbon monoxide,
and nitrogen. Also shown are the two experimental values for nitrogen.
Agreement is excellent at 99.83K and good at 110.9K. The curves for
these gases show that solubility should decrease with increasing
temperature and the nitrogen data confirm this. This figure shows the
mole fraction solubility of oxygen to be 1.0 at 90K. This means that
oxygen, which has a normal boiling temperature of 90.1K would
continuously condense in, and be miscible in all proportions, with
liquid methane at 90K. This is confirmed by reference 11 where, in a
study of the solubility of methane in liquid oxygen, it was concluded
that these formed a near-ideal solution at -297 F (90K)
(emphasis added) Reference 11 mentioned in there is "Hydrocarbon-Oxygen Systems Solubility", McKinley and Wang, 1960 (unfortunately paywalled) which also has interesting discussion of the stability (i.e. presence or absence of a tendency to explode) of various mixtures.
Figure 5 is reproduced below. Note how the solubility of oxygen rises rapidly as temperature drops.
answered Mar 22 at 4:44
Bob JacobsenBob Jacobsen
2713
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Bingo! What a great find, thank you! I think you can (should) also post an answer at the linked question as well.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 4:52
4
$begingroup$
Pre-mixing fuel and oxygen looks like a Very Bad Idea. Any spark will ignite it, as opposed to fuel stored separately. How stable is such a mixture? How likely are external events which would ignite it, like sparks? Could it be managed technically, in a rocket; e.g. can one ensure that the combustion does not back-propagate through the pumps etc.? (Should I ask a question, perhaps in the space exploration department?)
$endgroup$
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 22 at 7:10
2
$begingroup$
@PeterA.Schneider have a look at all the answers to the question linked in the first sentence of the question above.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 7:28
3
$begingroup$
On the other side of the phase diagram is sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0011227567800432/… (Hodges & Burch Cryogenics 7 112-3 (1967) where the looked at the distribution of methane between liquid and vapor phases of oxygen. A quote: "the very high solubility of methane in liquid oxygen precluded the possibility of methane precipitating from liquid oxygen". So, the would seem to mix quite nicely. Whether that is a good idea is left to the imagination (and hopefully left right there).
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 13:38
add a comment |
$begingroup$
There's a NASA report that looks into this: "ON THE SOLUBILITIES AND RATES OF SOLUTION OF GASES IN LIQUID METHANE", Hibbard and Evans, 1968 and concludes that such mixtures are possible.
Starting on page 8:
Figure 5(a) presents the curves for oxygen, argon, carbon monoxide,
and nitrogen. Also shown are the two experimental values for nitrogen.
Agreement is excellent at 99.83K and good at 110.9K. The curves for
these gases show that solubility should decrease with increasing
temperature and the nitrogen data confirm this. This figure shows the
mole fraction solubility of oxygen to be 1.0 at 90K. This means that
oxygen, which has a normal boiling temperature of 90.1K would
continuously condense in, and be miscible in all proportions, with
liquid methane at 90K. This is confirmed by reference 11 where, in a
study of the solubility of methane in liquid oxygen, it was concluded
that these formed a near-ideal solution at -297 F (90K)
(emphasis added) Reference 11 mentioned in there is "Hydrocarbon-Oxygen Systems Solubility", McKinley and Wang, 1960 (unfortunately paywalled) which also has interesting discussion of the stability (i.e. presence or absence of a tendency to explode) of various mixtures.
Figure 5 is reproduced below. Note how the solubility of oxygen rises rapidly as temperature drops.
answered Mar 22 at 4:44
Bob JacobsenBob Jacobsen
2713
$endgroup$
There's a NASA report that looks into this: "ON THE SOLUBILITIES AND RATES OF SOLUTION OF GASES IN LIQUID METHANE", Hibbard and Evans, 1968 and concludes that such mixtures are possible.
Starting on page 8:
Figure 5(a) presents the curves for oxygen, argon, carbon monoxide,
and nitrogen. Also shown are the two experimental values for nitrogen.
Agreement is excellent at 99.83K and good at 110.9K. The curves for
these gases show that solubility should decrease with increasing
temperature and the nitrogen data confirm this. This figure shows the
mole fraction solubility of oxygen to be 1.0 at 90K. This means that
oxygen, which has a normal boiling temperature of 90.1K would
continuously condense in, and be miscible in all proportions, with
liquid methane at 90K. This is confirmed by reference 11 where, in a
study of the solubility of methane in liquid oxygen, it was concluded
that these formed a near-ideal solution at -297 F (90K)
(emphasis added) Reference 11 mentioned in there is "Hydrocarbon-Oxygen Systems Solubility", McKinley and Wang, 1960 (unfortunately paywalled) which also has interesting discussion of the stability (i.e. presence or absence of a tendency to explode) of various mixtures.
Figure 5 is reproduced below. Note how the solubility of oxygen rises rapidly as temperature drops.
answered Mar 22 at 4:44
Bob JacobsenBob Jacobsen
2713
edited Mar 22 at 5:13
answered Mar 22 at 4:44
Bob JacobsenBob Jacobsen
2713
answered Mar 22 at 4:44
Bob JacobsenBob Jacobsen
2713
answered Mar 22 at 4:44
Bob JacobsenBob Jacobsen
2713
2713
$begingroup$
Bingo! What a great find, thank you! I think you can (should) also post an answer at the linked question as well.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 4:52
4
$begingroup$
Pre-mixing fuel and oxygen looks like a Very Bad Idea. Any spark will ignite it, as opposed to fuel stored separately. How stable is such a mixture? How likely are external events which would ignite it, like sparks? Could it be managed technically, in a rocket; e.g. can one ensure that the combustion does not back-propagate through the pumps etc.? (Should I ask a question, perhaps in the space exploration department?)
$endgroup$
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 22 at 7:10
2
$begingroup$
@PeterA.Schneider have a look at all the answers to the question linked in the first sentence of the question above.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 7:28
3
$begingroup$
On the other side of the phase diagram is sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0011227567800432/… (Hodges & Burch Cryogenics 7 112-3 (1967) where the looked at the distribution of methane between liquid and vapor phases of oxygen. A quote: "the very high solubility of methane in liquid oxygen precluded the possibility of methane precipitating from liquid oxygen". So, the would seem to mix quite nicely. Whether that is a good idea is left to the imagination (and hopefully left right there).
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 13:38
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Bingo! What a great find, thank you! I think you can (should) also post an answer at the linked question as well.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 4:52
4
$begingroup$
Pre-mixing fuel and oxygen looks like a Very Bad Idea. Any spark will ignite it, as opposed to fuel stored separately. How stable is such a mixture? How likely are external events which would ignite it, like sparks? Could it be managed technically, in a rocket; e.g. can one ensure that the combustion does not back-propagate through the pumps etc.? (Should I ask a question, perhaps in the space exploration department?)
$endgroup$
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 22 at 7:10
2
$begingroup$
@PeterA.Schneider have a look at all the answers to the question linked in the first sentence of the question above.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 7:28
3
$begingroup$
On the other side of the phase diagram is sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0011227567800432/… (Hodges & Burch Cryogenics 7 112-3 (1967) where the looked at the distribution of methane between liquid and vapor phases of oxygen. A quote: "the very high solubility of methane in liquid oxygen precluded the possibility of methane precipitating from liquid oxygen". So, the would seem to mix quite nicely. Whether that is a good idea is left to the imagination (and hopefully left right there).
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 13:38
$begingroup$
Bingo! What a great find, thank you! I think you can (should) also post an answer at the linked question as well.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 4:52
$begingroup$
Bingo! What a great find, thank you! I think you can (should) also post an answer at the linked question as well.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 4:52
4
4
$begingroup$
Pre-mixing fuel and oxygen looks like a Very Bad Idea. Any spark will ignite it, as opposed to fuel stored separately. How stable is such a mixture? How likely are external events which would ignite it, like sparks? Could it be managed technically, in a rocket; e.g. can one ensure that the combustion does not back-propagate through the pumps etc.? (Should I ask a question, perhaps in the space exploration department?)
$endgroup$
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 22 at 7:10
$begingroup$
Pre-mixing fuel and oxygen looks like a Very Bad Idea. Any spark will ignite it, as opposed to fuel stored separately. How stable is such a mixture? How likely are external events which would ignite it, like sparks? Could it be managed technically, in a rocket; e.g. can one ensure that the combustion does not back-propagate through the pumps etc.? (Should I ask a question, perhaps in the space exploration department?)
$endgroup$
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 22 at 7:10
2
2
$begingroup$
@PeterA.Schneider have a look at all the answers to the question linked in the first sentence of the question above.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 7:28
$begingroup$
@PeterA.Schneider have a look at all the answers to the question linked in the first sentence of the question above.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 7:28
3
3
$begingroup$
On the other side of the phase diagram is sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0011227567800432/… (Hodges & Burch Cryogenics 7 112-3 (1967) where the looked at the distribution of methane between liquid and vapor phases of oxygen. A quote: "the very high solubility of methane in liquid oxygen precluded the possibility of methane precipitating from liquid oxygen". So, the would seem to mix quite nicely. Whether that is a good idea is left to the imagination (and hopefully left right there).
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 13:38
$begingroup$
On the other side of the phase diagram is sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0011227567800432/… (Hodges & Burch Cryogenics 7 112-3 (1967) where the looked at the distribution of methane between liquid and vapor phases of oxygen. A quote: "the very high solubility of methane in liquid oxygen precluded the possibility of methane precipitating from liquid oxygen". So, the would seem to mix quite nicely. Whether that is a good idea is left to the imagination (and hopefully left right there).
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 13:38
add a comment |
$begingroup$
To add to the Bob's excellent answer (and expand a bit on my comment there), I've found two other potentially interesting papers to peruse.
The first is R.J. Hodges and R.J. Burch, Cryogenics 7 112-113 (1967), titled "The equilibrium distribution of methane between the liquid and vapour phases of oxygen". They note a "very high solubility of methane in liquid oxygen", with a equilibrium distribution coefficient at 93.15K (1.348 atm of O2) of 3.356 (so about 3x more methane in the liquid than in the gas phase). However, they kept the concentration of methane below the lower explosive limit so that it would not, well, explode.
Of perhaps more interest to the OP is R.L. Every and J.O. Thieme, Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets 2(5) 787-789 (1965) titled "Liquid oxygen and liquid methane mixtures as rocket monopropellants". In the introduction the authors note that previous work shows that the liquids are miscible in all proportions above 90K. Their tests show a specific impulse of almost 300 sec, and an exhaust velocity near 6000 fps.
In addition, since "shock sensitivities were reported" in the earlier work, they did some, well, vaguely disturbing experiments (hey, it was the 60's). "Tests were conducted to determine whether violent stirring or agitation, as found in an impeller-type pump, would detonate the mixture", although they didn't have any explosions there. They then went on to quantify the impact sensitivity, dropping a weight onto a stainless steel beaker of different mixtures from increasing heights until an explosion occurred. Impact sensitivities of 20-60 ft-lb were discovered. They also looked at adiabatic compression as a cause of explosion and found the liquid oxygen/methane mixtures were safer than some other things like nitromethane (which really isn't that comforting).
So, it would appear that the idea of using the liquid mixture as a monopropellant isn't totally off the wall, but please do it somewhere far from me...
answered Mar 22 at 14:00
Jon CusterJon Custer
5,80422132
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Those were the days. ;-) This is really interesting info! You may want to also write an answer to Pre-mixing cryogenic fuels and using only one fuel tank while you're at it.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 14:06
$begingroup$
Just because it's off the wall doesn't mean the early rocket pioneers wouldn't do it. Somewhere out there is a paper describing experimental tests of the feasibility of nitroglycerine as a monopropellant, and there was a general consensus that chlorine trifluoride would make an excellent oxidizer.
$endgroup$
– Mark
Mar 22 at 20:56
$begingroup$
Shock sensitivities? As in your rocket detonates when your ullage motors push the fuel to the bottom of the tank?
$endgroup$
– Loren Pechtel
Mar 23 at 4:01
add a comment |
$begingroup$
To add to the Bob's excellent answer (and expand a bit on my comment there), I've found two other potentially interesting papers to peruse.
The first is R.J. Hodges and R.J. Burch, Cryogenics 7 112-113 (1967), titled "The equilibrium distribution of methane between the liquid and vapour phases of oxygen". They note a "very high solubility of methane in liquid oxygen", with a equilibrium distribution coefficient at 93.15K (1.348 atm of O2) of 3.356 (so about 3x more methane in the liquid than in the gas phase). However, they kept the concentration of methane below the lower explosive limit so that it would not, well, explode.
Of perhaps more interest to the OP is R.L. Every and J.O. Thieme, Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets 2(5) 787-789 (1965) titled "Liquid oxygen and liquid methane mixtures as rocket monopropellants". In the introduction the authors note that previous work shows that the liquids are miscible in all proportions above 90K. Their tests show a specific impulse of almost 300 sec, and an exhaust velocity near 6000 fps.
In addition, since "shock sensitivities were reported" in the earlier work, they did some, well, vaguely disturbing experiments (hey, it was the 60's). "Tests were conducted to determine whether violent stirring or agitation, as found in an impeller-type pump, would detonate the mixture", although they didn't have any explosions there. They then went on to quantify the impact sensitivity, dropping a weight onto a stainless steel beaker of different mixtures from increasing heights until an explosion occurred. Impact sensitivities of 20-60 ft-lb were discovered. They also looked at adiabatic compression as a cause of explosion and found the liquid oxygen/methane mixtures were safer than some other things like nitromethane (which really isn't that comforting).
So, it would appear that the idea of using the liquid mixture as a monopropellant isn't totally off the wall, but please do it somewhere far from me...
answered Mar 22 at 14:00
Jon CusterJon Custer
5,80422132
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Those were the days. ;-) This is really interesting info! You may want to also write an answer to Pre-mixing cryogenic fuels and using only one fuel tank while you're at it.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 14:06
$begingroup$
Just because it's off the wall doesn't mean the early rocket pioneers wouldn't do it. Somewhere out there is a paper describing experimental tests of the feasibility of nitroglycerine as a monopropellant, and there was a general consensus that chlorine trifluoride would make an excellent oxidizer.
$endgroup$
– Mark
Mar 22 at 20:56
$begingroup$
Shock sensitivities? As in your rocket detonates when your ullage motors push the fuel to the bottom of the tank?
$endgroup$
– Loren Pechtel
Mar 23 at 4:01
add a comment |
$begingroup$
To add to the Bob's excellent answer (and expand a bit on my comment there), I've found two other potentially interesting papers to peruse.
The first is R.J. Hodges and R.J. Burch, Cryogenics 7 112-113 (1967), titled "The equilibrium distribution of methane between the liquid and vapour phases of oxygen". They note a "very high solubility of methane in liquid oxygen", with a equilibrium distribution coefficient at 93.15K (1.348 atm of O2) of 3.356 (so about 3x more methane in the liquid than in the gas phase). However, they kept the concentration of methane below the lower explosive limit so that it would not, well, explode.
Of perhaps more interest to the OP is R.L. Every and J.O. Thieme, Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets 2(5) 787-789 (1965) titled "Liquid oxygen and liquid methane mixtures as rocket monopropellants". In the introduction the authors note that previous work shows that the liquids are miscible in all proportions above 90K. Their tests show a specific impulse of almost 300 sec, and an exhaust velocity near 6000 fps.
In addition, since "shock sensitivities were reported" in the earlier work, they did some, well, vaguely disturbing experiments (hey, it was the 60's). "Tests were conducted to determine whether violent stirring or agitation, as found in an impeller-type pump, would detonate the mixture", although they didn't have any explosions there. They then went on to quantify the impact sensitivity, dropping a weight onto a stainless steel beaker of different mixtures from increasing heights until an explosion occurred. Impact sensitivities of 20-60 ft-lb were discovered. They also looked at adiabatic compression as a cause of explosion and found the liquid oxygen/methane mixtures were safer than some other things like nitromethane (which really isn't that comforting).
So, it would appear that the idea of using the liquid mixture as a monopropellant isn't totally off the wall, but please do it somewhere far from me...
answered Mar 22 at 14:00
Jon CusterJon Custer
5,80422132
$endgroup$
To add to the Bob's excellent answer (and expand a bit on my comment there), I've found two other potentially interesting papers to peruse.
The first is R.J. Hodges and R.J. Burch, Cryogenics 7 112-113 (1967), titled "The equilibrium distribution of methane between the liquid and vapour phases of oxygen". They note a "very high solubility of methane in liquid oxygen", with a equilibrium distribution coefficient at 93.15K (1.348 atm of O2) of 3.356 (so about 3x more methane in the liquid than in the gas phase). However, they kept the concentration of methane below the lower explosive limit so that it would not, well, explode.
Of perhaps more interest to the OP is R.L. Every and J.O. Thieme, Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets 2(5) 787-789 (1965) titled "Liquid oxygen and liquid methane mixtures as rocket monopropellants". In the introduction the authors note that previous work shows that the liquids are miscible in all proportions above 90K. Their tests show a specific impulse of almost 300 sec, and an exhaust velocity near 6000 fps.
In addition, since "shock sensitivities were reported" in the earlier work, they did some, well, vaguely disturbing experiments (hey, it was the 60's). "Tests were conducted to determine whether violent stirring or agitation, as found in an impeller-type pump, would detonate the mixture", although they didn't have any explosions there. They then went on to quantify the impact sensitivity, dropping a weight onto a stainless steel beaker of different mixtures from increasing heights until an explosion occurred. Impact sensitivities of 20-60 ft-lb were discovered. They also looked at adiabatic compression as a cause of explosion and found the liquid oxygen/methane mixtures were safer than some other things like nitromethane (which really isn't that comforting).
So, it would appear that the idea of using the liquid mixture as a monopropellant isn't totally off the wall, but please do it somewhere far from me...
answered Mar 22 at 14:00
Jon CusterJon Custer
5,80422132
edited Mar 22 at 14:17
answered Mar 22 at 14:00
Jon CusterJon Custer
5,80422132
answered Mar 22 at 14:00
Jon CusterJon Custer
5,80422132
answered Mar 22 at 14:00
Jon CusterJon Custer
5,80422132
5,80422132
$begingroup$
Those were the days. ;-) This is really interesting info! You may want to also write an answer to Pre-mixing cryogenic fuels and using only one fuel tank while you're at it.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 14:06
$begingroup$
Just because it's off the wall doesn't mean the early rocket pioneers wouldn't do it. Somewhere out there is a paper describing experimental tests of the feasibility of nitroglycerine as a monopropellant, and there was a general consensus that chlorine trifluoride would make an excellent oxidizer.
$endgroup$
– Mark
Mar 22 at 20:56
$begingroup$
Shock sensitivities? As in your rocket detonates when your ullage motors push the fuel to the bottom of the tank?
$endgroup$
– Loren Pechtel
Mar 23 at 4:01
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Those were the days. ;-) This is really interesting info! You may want to also write an answer to Pre-mixing cryogenic fuels and using only one fuel tank while you're at it.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 14:06
$begingroup$
Just because it's off the wall doesn't mean the early rocket pioneers wouldn't do it. Somewhere out there is a paper describing experimental tests of the feasibility of nitroglycerine as a monopropellant, and there was a general consensus that chlorine trifluoride would make an excellent oxidizer.
$endgroup$
– Mark
Mar 22 at 20:56
$begingroup$
Shock sensitivities? As in your rocket detonates when your ullage motors push the fuel to the bottom of the tank?
$endgroup$
– Loren Pechtel
Mar 23 at 4:01
$begingroup$
Those were the days. ;-) This is really interesting info! You may want to also write an answer to Pre-mixing cryogenic fuels and using only one fuel tank while you're at it.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 14:06
$begingroup$
Those were the days. ;-) This is really interesting info! You may want to also write an answer to Pre-mixing cryogenic fuels and using only one fuel tank while you're at it.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 14:06
$begingroup$
Just because it's off the wall doesn't mean the early rocket pioneers wouldn't do it. Somewhere out there is a paper describing experimental tests of the feasibility of nitroglycerine as a monopropellant, and there was a general consensus that chlorine trifluoride would make an excellent oxidizer.
$endgroup$
– Mark
Mar 22 at 20:56
$begingroup$
Just because it's off the wall doesn't mean the early rocket pioneers wouldn't do it. Somewhere out there is a paper describing experimental tests of the feasibility of nitroglycerine as a monopropellant, and there was a general consensus that chlorine trifluoride would make an excellent oxidizer.
$endgroup$
– Mark
Mar 22 at 20:56
$begingroup$
Shock sensitivities? As in your rocket detonates when your ullage motors push the fuel to the bottom of the tank?
$endgroup$
– Loren Pechtel
Mar 23 at 4:01
$begingroup$
Shock sensitivities? As in your rocket detonates when your ullage motors push the fuel to the bottom of the tank?
$endgroup$
– Loren Pechtel
Mar 23 at 4:01
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Chemistry Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fchemistry.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f111355%2fcan-a-stoichiometric-mixture-of-oxygen-and-methane-exist-as-a-liquid-at-standard%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
2
$begingroup$
I am not sure if both the
solutionsandmixturestags apply here.$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 1:18
3
$begingroup$
With an appropriate heat of mixing, the solution might well be possible. Not sure if there is literature on this mixture, but if I have time I’ll give it a whirl...
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 1:38
1
$begingroup$
@JonCuster I hope "give it a whirl" doesn't mean you're going to try to mix the two!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 22 at 1:40
3
$begingroup$
just trying to whip it into a nice froth for my coffee in the morning...
$endgroup$
– Jon Custer
Mar 22 at 1:41
$begingroup$
Is methane "heavier" (more dense) than $O_2$ etc at same low T? Why do I doubt this? This is not a primary source but suggests the opposite? Methane is certainly more polarizable but Mw is lower. My guess is the component with the higher melting point (methane) is perfectly soluble in the liquid. The entropy of mixing is probably enough to drive miscibility. As the answer suggests, they form ideal solutions at sufficiently low T.
$endgroup$
– Night Writer
Mar 22 at 13:05