Crossing the line between justified force and brutalityHow can I strike a balance between setting and plot?What is the difference between a complication/twist and a situation?At what point disappointment and frustration within the story makes the reader abandon it?What is difference between clown and trickster?How can I gradually grow the romance between the two main characters?What is the difference between character-driven stories and plot-driven stories?Is it okay to switch protagonists between books, if the main protagonist is a hidden “actor”?Is there a balance between a page-turning read and an exhausting 'too much' reading experience?How do you prevent whiplash when transitioning between comedy and tragedy?how can I showcase the internal struggles between a man and his demons?

Feels like I am getting dragged in office politics

Unexpected email from Yorkshire Bank

Is it possible to Ready a spell to be cast just before the start of your next turn by having the trigger be an ally's attack?

Lock in SQL Server and Oracle

Do I have an "anti-research" personality?

What is a Recurrent Neural Network?

Help, my Death Star suffers from Kessler syndrome!

Past Perfect Tense

Any examples of headwear for races with animal ears?

What's the metal clinking sound at the end of credits in Avengers: Endgame?

Stateful vs non-stateful app

Can not tell colimits from limits

Why do computer-science majors learn calculus?

Why are the 2nd/3rd singular forms of present of « potere » irregular?

How can I record the screen and the rear camera on an iPhone simultaneously?

Can someone publish a story that happened to you?

What is the strongest case that can be made in favour of the UK regaining some control over fishing policy after Brexit?

Stark VS Thanos

Why the difference in metal between 銀行 and お金?

Will tsunami waves travel forever if there was no land?

Why does nature favour the Laplacian?

Is thermodynamics only applicable to systems in equilibrium?

Do generators produce a fixed load?

Bayesian Nash Equilibria in Battle of Sexes



Crossing the line between justified force and brutality


How can I strike a balance between setting and plot?What is the difference between a complication/twist and a situation?At what point disappointment and frustration within the story makes the reader abandon it?What is difference between clown and trickster?How can I gradually grow the romance between the two main characters?What is the difference between character-driven stories and plot-driven stories?Is it okay to switch protagonists between books, if the main protagonist is a hidden “actor”?Is there a balance between a page-turning read and an exhausting 'too much' reading experience?How do you prevent whiplash when transitioning between comedy and tragedy?how can I showcase the internal struggles between a man and his demons?













7















A beta reader of sorts (cousin) mentioned he thought my MC2 rather brutal in her capture of MC1 - though justified.



I have her dupe him into surrendering (believing himself outnumbered and outgunned). Once he does surrender, she does the following:



  • searches him

  • disarms him

  • handcuffs him

  • binds his elbows to prevent escape

  • rigs a chokehold out of a dog leash

  • threatens him with a hunting knife

  • holds him at gun point

  • threatens to geld him (psychological tactic only)

She is successful in convincing him that any unsanctioned movement is a bad idea. She uses these tactics because she is smaller than he is and she would lose in a fight. She cannot allow him, at that moment, to consider resisting.



Has she crossed the line between using justified force to bring in a dangerous prisoner and brutality?



It occurs in Bolivia shortly after an assassination.



To clarify somewhat, she does not go directly to the choke-hold or threat of castration. MC1 asks her something that makes her choose to go further as he is not in the mindset she wants yet.










share|improve this question



















  • 1





    Is she highly trained at apprehending prisoners? (It sounds like she is, but I'd like to hear it explicitly)

    – bruglesco
    Mar 28 at 0:24











  • Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 0:27






  • 4





    This could be part of your MC2's character development. Perhaps she asks herself the same question you've asked here: was I justified in using such force or not? (I once read a book [book 9 of Darren Shan's excellent Demonata series] in which MC1 rips MC2's eyes out in order to keep him on Earth instead of abandoning their mission for another which he sees as greater. Brutal as hell, but in the context of the story, it worked.)

    – Rand al'Thor
    Mar 28 at 9:59











  • Can you "geld" a person? Don't we call that castration? It's like saying a woman got spayed...

    – only_pro
    Mar 28 at 14:39












  • Indeed - though she never uses the term. She asks him if he knows the difference between a bullcalf and a steer. He does

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 15:22















7















A beta reader of sorts (cousin) mentioned he thought my MC2 rather brutal in her capture of MC1 - though justified.



I have her dupe him into surrendering (believing himself outnumbered and outgunned). Once he does surrender, she does the following:



  • searches him

  • disarms him

  • handcuffs him

  • binds his elbows to prevent escape

  • rigs a chokehold out of a dog leash

  • threatens him with a hunting knife

  • holds him at gun point

  • threatens to geld him (psychological tactic only)

She is successful in convincing him that any unsanctioned movement is a bad idea. She uses these tactics because she is smaller than he is and she would lose in a fight. She cannot allow him, at that moment, to consider resisting.



Has she crossed the line between using justified force to bring in a dangerous prisoner and brutality?



It occurs in Bolivia shortly after an assassination.



To clarify somewhat, she does not go directly to the choke-hold or threat of castration. MC1 asks her something that makes her choose to go further as he is not in the mindset she wants yet.










share|improve this question



















  • 1





    Is she highly trained at apprehending prisoners? (It sounds like she is, but I'd like to hear it explicitly)

    – bruglesco
    Mar 28 at 0:24











  • Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 0:27






  • 4





    This could be part of your MC2's character development. Perhaps she asks herself the same question you've asked here: was I justified in using such force or not? (I once read a book [book 9 of Darren Shan's excellent Demonata series] in which MC1 rips MC2's eyes out in order to keep him on Earth instead of abandoning their mission for another which he sees as greater. Brutal as hell, but in the context of the story, it worked.)

    – Rand al'Thor
    Mar 28 at 9:59











  • Can you "geld" a person? Don't we call that castration? It's like saying a woman got spayed...

    – only_pro
    Mar 28 at 14:39












  • Indeed - though she never uses the term. She asks him if he knows the difference between a bullcalf and a steer. He does

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 15:22













7












7








7


2






A beta reader of sorts (cousin) mentioned he thought my MC2 rather brutal in her capture of MC1 - though justified.



I have her dupe him into surrendering (believing himself outnumbered and outgunned). Once he does surrender, she does the following:



  • searches him

  • disarms him

  • handcuffs him

  • binds his elbows to prevent escape

  • rigs a chokehold out of a dog leash

  • threatens him with a hunting knife

  • holds him at gun point

  • threatens to geld him (psychological tactic only)

She is successful in convincing him that any unsanctioned movement is a bad idea. She uses these tactics because she is smaller than he is and she would lose in a fight. She cannot allow him, at that moment, to consider resisting.



Has she crossed the line between using justified force to bring in a dangerous prisoner and brutality?



It occurs in Bolivia shortly after an assassination.



To clarify somewhat, she does not go directly to the choke-hold or threat of castration. MC1 asks her something that makes her choose to go further as he is not in the mindset she wants yet.










share|improve this question
















A beta reader of sorts (cousin) mentioned he thought my MC2 rather brutal in her capture of MC1 - though justified.



I have her dupe him into surrendering (believing himself outnumbered and outgunned). Once he does surrender, she does the following:



  • searches him

  • disarms him

  • handcuffs him

  • binds his elbows to prevent escape

  • rigs a chokehold out of a dog leash

  • threatens him with a hunting knife

  • holds him at gun point

  • threatens to geld him (psychological tactic only)

She is successful in convincing him that any unsanctioned movement is a bad idea. She uses these tactics because she is smaller than he is and she would lose in a fight. She cannot allow him, at that moment, to consider resisting.



Has she crossed the line between using justified force to bring in a dangerous prisoner and brutality?



It occurs in Bolivia shortly after an assassination.



To clarify somewhat, she does not go directly to the choke-hold or threat of castration. MC1 asks her something that makes her choose to go further as he is not in the mindset she wants yet.







characters plot combat






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Mar 29 at 22:53







Rasdashan

















asked Mar 28 at 0:02









RasdashanRasdashan

10.5k11366




10.5k11366







  • 1





    Is she highly trained at apprehending prisoners? (It sounds like she is, but I'd like to hear it explicitly)

    – bruglesco
    Mar 28 at 0:24











  • Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 0:27






  • 4





    This could be part of your MC2's character development. Perhaps she asks herself the same question you've asked here: was I justified in using such force or not? (I once read a book [book 9 of Darren Shan's excellent Demonata series] in which MC1 rips MC2's eyes out in order to keep him on Earth instead of abandoning their mission for another which he sees as greater. Brutal as hell, but in the context of the story, it worked.)

    – Rand al'Thor
    Mar 28 at 9:59











  • Can you "geld" a person? Don't we call that castration? It's like saying a woman got spayed...

    – only_pro
    Mar 28 at 14:39












  • Indeed - though she never uses the term. She asks him if he knows the difference between a bullcalf and a steer. He does

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 15:22












  • 1





    Is she highly trained at apprehending prisoners? (It sounds like she is, but I'd like to hear it explicitly)

    – bruglesco
    Mar 28 at 0:24











  • Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 0:27






  • 4





    This could be part of your MC2's character development. Perhaps she asks herself the same question you've asked here: was I justified in using such force or not? (I once read a book [book 9 of Darren Shan's excellent Demonata series] in which MC1 rips MC2's eyes out in order to keep him on Earth instead of abandoning their mission for another which he sees as greater. Brutal as hell, but in the context of the story, it worked.)

    – Rand al'Thor
    Mar 28 at 9:59











  • Can you "geld" a person? Don't we call that castration? It's like saying a woman got spayed...

    – only_pro
    Mar 28 at 14:39












  • Indeed - though she never uses the term. She asks him if he knows the difference between a bullcalf and a steer. He does

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 15:22







1




1





Is she highly trained at apprehending prisoners? (It sounds like she is, but I'd like to hear it explicitly)

– bruglesco
Mar 28 at 0:24





Is she highly trained at apprehending prisoners? (It sounds like she is, but I'd like to hear it explicitly)

– bruglesco
Mar 28 at 0:24













Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.

– Rasdashan
Mar 28 at 0:27





Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.

– Rasdashan
Mar 28 at 0:27




4




4





This could be part of your MC2's character development. Perhaps she asks herself the same question you've asked here: was I justified in using such force or not? (I once read a book [book 9 of Darren Shan's excellent Demonata series] in which MC1 rips MC2's eyes out in order to keep him on Earth instead of abandoning their mission for another which he sees as greater. Brutal as hell, but in the context of the story, it worked.)

– Rand al'Thor
Mar 28 at 9:59





This could be part of your MC2's character development. Perhaps she asks herself the same question you've asked here: was I justified in using such force or not? (I once read a book [book 9 of Darren Shan's excellent Demonata series] in which MC1 rips MC2's eyes out in order to keep him on Earth instead of abandoning their mission for another which he sees as greater. Brutal as hell, but in the context of the story, it worked.)

– Rand al'Thor
Mar 28 at 9:59













Can you "geld" a person? Don't we call that castration? It's like saying a woman got spayed...

– only_pro
Mar 28 at 14:39






Can you "geld" a person? Don't we call that castration? It's like saying a woman got spayed...

– only_pro
Mar 28 at 14:39














Indeed - though she never uses the term. She asks him if he knows the difference between a bullcalf and a steer. He does

– Rasdashan
Mar 28 at 15:22





Indeed - though she never uses the term. She asks him if he knows the difference between a bullcalf and a steer. He does

– Rasdashan
Mar 28 at 15:22










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















15














The tone of your writing will make the difference



Written out in a cold hard list like that is certainly sounds brutal. MC2 has MC1 at their mercy and yet continues to threaten and abuse them. If you want to portray the brutality of the scene then you don't have a problem. If you didn't intend for it to sound so harsh then you need to look at how you describe their actions.



Why are they doing it?



When a character is truly brutal and cares little for the life of their target then they will show little emotion or even take pleasure in the acts. Writing their behaviour in this way will increase the brutality of the scene.




She uses these tactics because she is smaller than he is and she would lose in a fight. She cannot allow him, at that moment, to consider resisting.




This makes it sound like the motivation is fear. MC2 is afraid of what MC1 will do when they break out and are doing everything they possibly can to prevent that. You need to show your readers that fear, a voice-crack and shaking hand when pointing the gun something that displays that MC2 isn't as confident as their actions appear.




Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.




Desperation is a similar motivator to fear. Show how the character doesn't want to do this but feels like they have no choice. This works particularly well if you show us the reason for their desperation, why is this so important to them?



Characters acting out of fear or desperation is something we can emphasize with and will reduce the feeling of brutality in your scene. Potentially you still make one too many threats but if you make it clear that these are hollow threats and MC2 is unlikely to follow through it won't seem so brutal.




A side note, if MC2 is performing an arrest in any kind of official capacity; law-enforcement, military or covert operation, they have certainly crossed the line. The most concerning is the choke-hold leash and the threat of gelding. Everything else is within the bounds of normal arrest behaviour.






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    The choke-hold is something she rigs so she can safely transport him. She cannot be both guard and driver, so rigs the choke-hold to maintain control during transit

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 0:38






  • 6





    @Rasdashan Fair enough, the point is that a police officer still wouldn't do this. Lock them in the boot/trunk of a car maybe if they had no other way to restrain them but choke-hold is pretty brutal. Usually restraining the arms and putting them in the backseat is enough.

    – linksassin
    Mar 28 at 0:40







  • 4





    As a brainstorm: if your POV permits getting in her head, you could spend a few sentences showing her convincing herself that the gelding threat needs to be made, needs to be successful, and thus she needs to believe it herself. I think that it would be easy to sympathize with someone who realizes she is going to have to convince herself the gelding threat is a legitimate threat in order to make the threat do its job.

    – Cort Ammon
    Mar 28 at 15:41











  • @CortAmmon That is an excellent suggestion. She has a theory that a gap exists in CIA training and this threat helps to render such an officer easier to read, if only briefly. She knows she has to sell it or it is worse than useless. MC1 figures it out, but by then the threat has served its purpose. I will just make that a bit more clear.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 20:14


















13














Assuming the detainer is a police officer, in many jurisdictions this would be considered unnecessary force, i.e. illegal, and would likely result in the detainee having to be released.



Police forces in many nations are bound by principles of criminal justice ethics, and in fact, there are laws that police officers must adhere to in order to avoid misconduct.



Your officer is likely fully aware that misconduct will badly affect the case she is working on, so unless her behaviour is driven by personal factors rather than professional ones (e.g. fear, hatred, revenge, prejudice), this is likely too brutal.






share|improve this answer


















  • 8





    +1 Laws regarding police misconduct might be different in different places. It is actually a very good idea to check what those laws are in the location where the story takes place. If more brutal actions are permitted there, that could make for an interesting story element.

    – Galastel
    Mar 28 at 0:48



















6














Justification is a theme for you to explore



You decide what is justified. You decide what gives someone the right to do what she does.



  • Do the ends justify the means?

  • For the greater good.

  • Fear and self-defense. Is it self-defense when she is the pursuer?

  • No cause is just enough. As an officer of the law she has a duty to make apprehensions while maintaining the basic human rights of the prisoner.

I find a couple of things unlikely and requiring explanation, if you pursued this. Your officer is highly trained and presumably used to making captures. Or is she? If she is new, unqualified or unskilled in some way that might justify her fear. Your prisoner could also have a reputation that precedes itself. Even the most skilled and trained officer might be afraid when faced against a notorious fugitive. These are pretty drastic extremes, but sometimes that happens in our writing.



One thing struck me though. Something you said in a comment in response to me asking you if she was highly trained.




Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists,
her chance to apprehend him is gone.




That doesn't sound like she is afraid for her safety. That sounds like she is afraid she might not win.



If she does this just to be sure she wins, because she always gets her man, and they never escape when she does, then she is a sociopath. This is absolutely brutality.



But then again, maybe she needs to get her man because too much is at stake if he escapes. Too many people will die.



Or they live in a police state.



Regardless of which direction you go with, you should research takedown and restraint techniques for people of smaller stature vs people much bigger than them. Something tells me that even if she was okay with brutality,






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    prisoner is known to be potentially lethal. She is experienced, but feels these measures are required to ensure success and her own safety.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 1:19






  • 5





    @Rasdashan there is a difference between apprehending a known murderer and pursuing Jason Bourne. Many dangerous criminal are potentially lethal. If that alone was justification you would see cops carrying choke collars with their handcuffs.

    – bruglesco
    Mar 28 at 1:22











  • He is a bit more Jason Bourne than known killer.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 1:34






  • 2





    @Rasdashan Well if she knows that, then yes, maybe.

    – bruglesco
    Mar 28 at 1:36


















5














It does depend on what her job is.



If she's special forces of some kind, it's very likely this is SOP. MC1 can think himself lucky he's still alive. As with the raid on Bin Laden's compound, taking a target alive is very much secondary.



For the military in general, this is something they shouldn't do, but evidence shows they'll almost certainly get away with it. It took years before anyone noticed that anything was happening at Abu Ghraib, and only then because some inmates died. Until Obama, torture of prisoners was a formal part of US military intelligence procedures - the issue at Abu Ghraib was simply that the staff there had not been told they could torture those prisoners, and that torture was not carried out according to procedures. She'll get a minor warning at best.



For the police in places ruled by law, this will almost certainly result in disciplinary proceedings. MC1 may need to make a formal complaint for that, of course. And the methods are not sound either - if she can rig a chokehold then she can equally well hogtie him, which is a much more effective way of stopping him running off. Or the cuffs can go on his ankles instead of his wrists, because however much bigger he is, removing his mobility limits his range to purely the reach of his arms. Then she waits for backup.



As a civilian, it's more of a grey area. If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal. Since it's a grey area, you may need to convince a court of that, of course.



But then you say it's Bolivia. Transparency International rate it 29/100 and 132nd out of 186 for rule of law. They had (and may still have) literal death squads of police going round executing street kids. For comparison, Saudi Arabia's police routinely sexually assault and beat prisoners as part of their interrogation, and they rate 49/100. Your MC2 is more likely to be commended for ingenuity, possibly with a verbal warning that we don't arrest these sort of people and we don't let them walk away. Normal rule-of-law principles simply don't apply in places like that.






share|improve this answer


















  • 3





    "If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal." This very much depends on local law. In some places, what you say might be true. In others, not so much, depending on circumstances.

    – a CVn
    Mar 28 at 10:06












  • Backup is hours away and she could get him to HQ before they arrived, so she leaves him his legs

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 12:02











  • @aCVn Somewhat agree on the details, but that's the general principle of self-defence as a legal defence, and all systems of justice recognise that principle. The OP's scenario fails on that score because the easiest way to make herself safe is to let him run away - that's where many alleged self-defence cases (e.g. Tony Martin in the UK) fall down.

    – Graham
    Mar 28 at 12:34






  • 2





    @Rasdashan I appreciate that's something which needs to happen in order for the rest of the plot to follow. It's still a bit like the young half-naked female character in a horror movie going down into the cellar though. A reasonably smart regular cop would just sit it out, knowing that however long they wait, they're still safe. Unless you can tweak your story somewhat so that backup isn't coming - maybe in a radio and phone blackspot?

    – Graham
    Mar 28 at 12:57











  • They are in the middle of nowhere and reception is spotty at best. The manhunt is beginning - so they would reach her location by morning. She was nearby when she was called in - thought going to HQ a waste of time they did not have.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 13:27











Your Answer








StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "166"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);

else
createEditor();

);

function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);



);













draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fwriting.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f44118%2fcrossing-the-line-between-justified-force-and-brutality%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes








4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









15














The tone of your writing will make the difference



Written out in a cold hard list like that is certainly sounds brutal. MC2 has MC1 at their mercy and yet continues to threaten and abuse them. If you want to portray the brutality of the scene then you don't have a problem. If you didn't intend for it to sound so harsh then you need to look at how you describe their actions.



Why are they doing it?



When a character is truly brutal and cares little for the life of their target then they will show little emotion or even take pleasure in the acts. Writing their behaviour in this way will increase the brutality of the scene.




She uses these tactics because she is smaller than he is and she would lose in a fight. She cannot allow him, at that moment, to consider resisting.




This makes it sound like the motivation is fear. MC2 is afraid of what MC1 will do when they break out and are doing everything they possibly can to prevent that. You need to show your readers that fear, a voice-crack and shaking hand when pointing the gun something that displays that MC2 isn't as confident as their actions appear.




Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.




Desperation is a similar motivator to fear. Show how the character doesn't want to do this but feels like they have no choice. This works particularly well if you show us the reason for their desperation, why is this so important to them?



Characters acting out of fear or desperation is something we can emphasize with and will reduce the feeling of brutality in your scene. Potentially you still make one too many threats but if you make it clear that these are hollow threats and MC2 is unlikely to follow through it won't seem so brutal.




A side note, if MC2 is performing an arrest in any kind of official capacity; law-enforcement, military or covert operation, they have certainly crossed the line. The most concerning is the choke-hold leash and the threat of gelding. Everything else is within the bounds of normal arrest behaviour.






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    The choke-hold is something she rigs so she can safely transport him. She cannot be both guard and driver, so rigs the choke-hold to maintain control during transit

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 0:38






  • 6





    @Rasdashan Fair enough, the point is that a police officer still wouldn't do this. Lock them in the boot/trunk of a car maybe if they had no other way to restrain them but choke-hold is pretty brutal. Usually restraining the arms and putting them in the backseat is enough.

    – linksassin
    Mar 28 at 0:40







  • 4





    As a brainstorm: if your POV permits getting in her head, you could spend a few sentences showing her convincing herself that the gelding threat needs to be made, needs to be successful, and thus she needs to believe it herself. I think that it would be easy to sympathize with someone who realizes she is going to have to convince herself the gelding threat is a legitimate threat in order to make the threat do its job.

    – Cort Ammon
    Mar 28 at 15:41











  • @CortAmmon That is an excellent suggestion. She has a theory that a gap exists in CIA training and this threat helps to render such an officer easier to read, if only briefly. She knows she has to sell it or it is worse than useless. MC1 figures it out, but by then the threat has served its purpose. I will just make that a bit more clear.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 20:14















15














The tone of your writing will make the difference



Written out in a cold hard list like that is certainly sounds brutal. MC2 has MC1 at their mercy and yet continues to threaten and abuse them. If you want to portray the brutality of the scene then you don't have a problem. If you didn't intend for it to sound so harsh then you need to look at how you describe their actions.



Why are they doing it?



When a character is truly brutal and cares little for the life of their target then they will show little emotion or even take pleasure in the acts. Writing their behaviour in this way will increase the brutality of the scene.




She uses these tactics because she is smaller than he is and she would lose in a fight. She cannot allow him, at that moment, to consider resisting.




This makes it sound like the motivation is fear. MC2 is afraid of what MC1 will do when they break out and are doing everything they possibly can to prevent that. You need to show your readers that fear, a voice-crack and shaking hand when pointing the gun something that displays that MC2 isn't as confident as their actions appear.




Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.




Desperation is a similar motivator to fear. Show how the character doesn't want to do this but feels like they have no choice. This works particularly well if you show us the reason for their desperation, why is this so important to them?



Characters acting out of fear or desperation is something we can emphasize with and will reduce the feeling of brutality in your scene. Potentially you still make one too many threats but if you make it clear that these are hollow threats and MC2 is unlikely to follow through it won't seem so brutal.




A side note, if MC2 is performing an arrest in any kind of official capacity; law-enforcement, military or covert operation, they have certainly crossed the line. The most concerning is the choke-hold leash and the threat of gelding. Everything else is within the bounds of normal arrest behaviour.






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    The choke-hold is something she rigs so she can safely transport him. She cannot be both guard and driver, so rigs the choke-hold to maintain control during transit

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 0:38






  • 6





    @Rasdashan Fair enough, the point is that a police officer still wouldn't do this. Lock them in the boot/trunk of a car maybe if they had no other way to restrain them but choke-hold is pretty brutal. Usually restraining the arms and putting them in the backseat is enough.

    – linksassin
    Mar 28 at 0:40







  • 4





    As a brainstorm: if your POV permits getting in her head, you could spend a few sentences showing her convincing herself that the gelding threat needs to be made, needs to be successful, and thus she needs to believe it herself. I think that it would be easy to sympathize with someone who realizes she is going to have to convince herself the gelding threat is a legitimate threat in order to make the threat do its job.

    – Cort Ammon
    Mar 28 at 15:41











  • @CortAmmon That is an excellent suggestion. She has a theory that a gap exists in CIA training and this threat helps to render such an officer easier to read, if only briefly. She knows she has to sell it or it is worse than useless. MC1 figures it out, but by then the threat has served its purpose. I will just make that a bit more clear.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 20:14













15












15








15







The tone of your writing will make the difference



Written out in a cold hard list like that is certainly sounds brutal. MC2 has MC1 at their mercy and yet continues to threaten and abuse them. If you want to portray the brutality of the scene then you don't have a problem. If you didn't intend for it to sound so harsh then you need to look at how you describe their actions.



Why are they doing it?



When a character is truly brutal and cares little for the life of their target then they will show little emotion or even take pleasure in the acts. Writing their behaviour in this way will increase the brutality of the scene.




She uses these tactics because she is smaller than he is and she would lose in a fight. She cannot allow him, at that moment, to consider resisting.




This makes it sound like the motivation is fear. MC2 is afraid of what MC1 will do when they break out and are doing everything they possibly can to prevent that. You need to show your readers that fear, a voice-crack and shaking hand when pointing the gun something that displays that MC2 isn't as confident as their actions appear.




Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.




Desperation is a similar motivator to fear. Show how the character doesn't want to do this but feels like they have no choice. This works particularly well if you show us the reason for their desperation, why is this so important to them?



Characters acting out of fear or desperation is something we can emphasize with and will reduce the feeling of brutality in your scene. Potentially you still make one too many threats but if you make it clear that these are hollow threats and MC2 is unlikely to follow through it won't seem so brutal.




A side note, if MC2 is performing an arrest in any kind of official capacity; law-enforcement, military or covert operation, they have certainly crossed the line. The most concerning is the choke-hold leash and the threat of gelding. Everything else is within the bounds of normal arrest behaviour.






share|improve this answer















The tone of your writing will make the difference



Written out in a cold hard list like that is certainly sounds brutal. MC2 has MC1 at their mercy and yet continues to threaten and abuse them. If you want to portray the brutality of the scene then you don't have a problem. If you didn't intend for it to sound so harsh then you need to look at how you describe their actions.



Why are they doing it?



When a character is truly brutal and cares little for the life of their target then they will show little emotion or even take pleasure in the acts. Writing their behaviour in this way will increase the brutality of the scene.




She uses these tactics because she is smaller than he is and she would lose in a fight. She cannot allow him, at that moment, to consider resisting.




This makes it sound like the motivation is fear. MC2 is afraid of what MC1 will do when they break out and are doing everything they possibly can to prevent that. You need to show your readers that fear, a voice-crack and shaking hand when pointing the gun something that displays that MC2 isn't as confident as their actions appear.




Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.




Desperation is a similar motivator to fear. Show how the character doesn't want to do this but feels like they have no choice. This works particularly well if you show us the reason for their desperation, why is this so important to them?



Characters acting out of fear or desperation is something we can emphasize with and will reduce the feeling of brutality in your scene. Potentially you still make one too many threats but if you make it clear that these are hollow threats and MC2 is unlikely to follow through it won't seem so brutal.




A side note, if MC2 is performing an arrest in any kind of official capacity; law-enforcement, military or covert operation, they have certainly crossed the line. The most concerning is the choke-hold leash and the threat of gelding. Everything else is within the bounds of normal arrest behaviour.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Mar 28 at 0:44

























answered Mar 28 at 0:29









linksassinlinksassin

2,657939




2,657939







  • 1





    The choke-hold is something she rigs so she can safely transport him. She cannot be both guard and driver, so rigs the choke-hold to maintain control during transit

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 0:38






  • 6





    @Rasdashan Fair enough, the point is that a police officer still wouldn't do this. Lock them in the boot/trunk of a car maybe if they had no other way to restrain them but choke-hold is pretty brutal. Usually restraining the arms and putting them in the backseat is enough.

    – linksassin
    Mar 28 at 0:40







  • 4





    As a brainstorm: if your POV permits getting in her head, you could spend a few sentences showing her convincing herself that the gelding threat needs to be made, needs to be successful, and thus she needs to believe it herself. I think that it would be easy to sympathize with someone who realizes she is going to have to convince herself the gelding threat is a legitimate threat in order to make the threat do its job.

    – Cort Ammon
    Mar 28 at 15:41











  • @CortAmmon That is an excellent suggestion. She has a theory that a gap exists in CIA training and this threat helps to render such an officer easier to read, if only briefly. She knows she has to sell it or it is worse than useless. MC1 figures it out, but by then the threat has served its purpose. I will just make that a bit more clear.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 20:14












  • 1





    The choke-hold is something she rigs so she can safely transport him. She cannot be both guard and driver, so rigs the choke-hold to maintain control during transit

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 0:38






  • 6





    @Rasdashan Fair enough, the point is that a police officer still wouldn't do this. Lock them in the boot/trunk of a car maybe if they had no other way to restrain them but choke-hold is pretty brutal. Usually restraining the arms and putting them in the backseat is enough.

    – linksassin
    Mar 28 at 0:40







  • 4





    As a brainstorm: if your POV permits getting in her head, you could spend a few sentences showing her convincing herself that the gelding threat needs to be made, needs to be successful, and thus she needs to believe it herself. I think that it would be easy to sympathize with someone who realizes she is going to have to convince herself the gelding threat is a legitimate threat in order to make the threat do its job.

    – Cort Ammon
    Mar 28 at 15:41











  • @CortAmmon That is an excellent suggestion. She has a theory that a gap exists in CIA training and this threat helps to render such an officer easier to read, if only briefly. She knows she has to sell it or it is worse than useless. MC1 figures it out, but by then the threat has served its purpose. I will just make that a bit more clear.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 20:14







1




1





The choke-hold is something she rigs so she can safely transport him. She cannot be both guard and driver, so rigs the choke-hold to maintain control during transit

– Rasdashan
Mar 28 at 0:38





The choke-hold is something she rigs so she can safely transport him. She cannot be both guard and driver, so rigs the choke-hold to maintain control during transit

– Rasdashan
Mar 28 at 0:38




6




6





@Rasdashan Fair enough, the point is that a police officer still wouldn't do this. Lock them in the boot/trunk of a car maybe if they had no other way to restrain them but choke-hold is pretty brutal. Usually restraining the arms and putting them in the backseat is enough.

– linksassin
Mar 28 at 0:40






@Rasdashan Fair enough, the point is that a police officer still wouldn't do this. Lock them in the boot/trunk of a car maybe if they had no other way to restrain them but choke-hold is pretty brutal. Usually restraining the arms and putting them in the backseat is enough.

– linksassin
Mar 28 at 0:40





4




4





As a brainstorm: if your POV permits getting in her head, you could spend a few sentences showing her convincing herself that the gelding threat needs to be made, needs to be successful, and thus she needs to believe it herself. I think that it would be easy to sympathize with someone who realizes she is going to have to convince herself the gelding threat is a legitimate threat in order to make the threat do its job.

– Cort Ammon
Mar 28 at 15:41





As a brainstorm: if your POV permits getting in her head, you could spend a few sentences showing her convincing herself that the gelding threat needs to be made, needs to be successful, and thus she needs to believe it herself. I think that it would be easy to sympathize with someone who realizes she is going to have to convince herself the gelding threat is a legitimate threat in order to make the threat do its job.

– Cort Ammon
Mar 28 at 15:41













@CortAmmon That is an excellent suggestion. She has a theory that a gap exists in CIA training and this threat helps to render such an officer easier to read, if only briefly. She knows she has to sell it or it is worse than useless. MC1 figures it out, but by then the threat has served its purpose. I will just make that a bit more clear.

– Rasdashan
Mar 28 at 20:14





@CortAmmon That is an excellent suggestion. She has a theory that a gap exists in CIA training and this threat helps to render such an officer easier to read, if only briefly. She knows she has to sell it or it is worse than useless. MC1 figures it out, but by then the threat has served its purpose. I will just make that a bit more clear.

– Rasdashan
Mar 28 at 20:14











13














Assuming the detainer is a police officer, in many jurisdictions this would be considered unnecessary force, i.e. illegal, and would likely result in the detainee having to be released.



Police forces in many nations are bound by principles of criminal justice ethics, and in fact, there are laws that police officers must adhere to in order to avoid misconduct.



Your officer is likely fully aware that misconduct will badly affect the case she is working on, so unless her behaviour is driven by personal factors rather than professional ones (e.g. fear, hatred, revenge, prejudice), this is likely too brutal.






share|improve this answer


















  • 8





    +1 Laws regarding police misconduct might be different in different places. It is actually a very good idea to check what those laws are in the location where the story takes place. If more brutal actions are permitted there, that could make for an interesting story element.

    – Galastel
    Mar 28 at 0:48
















13














Assuming the detainer is a police officer, in many jurisdictions this would be considered unnecessary force, i.e. illegal, and would likely result in the detainee having to be released.



Police forces in many nations are bound by principles of criminal justice ethics, and in fact, there are laws that police officers must adhere to in order to avoid misconduct.



Your officer is likely fully aware that misconduct will badly affect the case she is working on, so unless her behaviour is driven by personal factors rather than professional ones (e.g. fear, hatred, revenge, prejudice), this is likely too brutal.






share|improve this answer


















  • 8





    +1 Laws regarding police misconduct might be different in different places. It is actually a very good idea to check what those laws are in the location where the story takes place. If more brutal actions are permitted there, that could make for an interesting story element.

    – Galastel
    Mar 28 at 0:48














13












13








13







Assuming the detainer is a police officer, in many jurisdictions this would be considered unnecessary force, i.e. illegal, and would likely result in the detainee having to be released.



Police forces in many nations are bound by principles of criminal justice ethics, and in fact, there are laws that police officers must adhere to in order to avoid misconduct.



Your officer is likely fully aware that misconduct will badly affect the case she is working on, so unless her behaviour is driven by personal factors rather than professional ones (e.g. fear, hatred, revenge, prejudice), this is likely too brutal.






share|improve this answer













Assuming the detainer is a police officer, in many jurisdictions this would be considered unnecessary force, i.e. illegal, and would likely result in the detainee having to be released.



Police forces in many nations are bound by principles of criminal justice ethics, and in fact, there are laws that police officers must adhere to in order to avoid misconduct.



Your officer is likely fully aware that misconduct will badly affect the case she is working on, so unless her behaviour is driven by personal factors rather than professional ones (e.g. fear, hatred, revenge, prejudice), this is likely too brutal.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered Mar 28 at 0:33









Arkenstein XIIArkenstein XII

2666




2666







  • 8





    +1 Laws regarding police misconduct might be different in different places. It is actually a very good idea to check what those laws are in the location where the story takes place. If more brutal actions are permitted there, that could make for an interesting story element.

    – Galastel
    Mar 28 at 0:48













  • 8





    +1 Laws regarding police misconduct might be different in different places. It is actually a very good idea to check what those laws are in the location where the story takes place. If more brutal actions are permitted there, that could make for an interesting story element.

    – Galastel
    Mar 28 at 0:48








8




8





+1 Laws regarding police misconduct might be different in different places. It is actually a very good idea to check what those laws are in the location where the story takes place. If more brutal actions are permitted there, that could make for an interesting story element.

– Galastel
Mar 28 at 0:48






+1 Laws regarding police misconduct might be different in different places. It is actually a very good idea to check what those laws are in the location where the story takes place. If more brutal actions are permitted there, that could make for an interesting story element.

– Galastel
Mar 28 at 0:48












6














Justification is a theme for you to explore



You decide what is justified. You decide what gives someone the right to do what she does.



  • Do the ends justify the means?

  • For the greater good.

  • Fear and self-defense. Is it self-defense when she is the pursuer?

  • No cause is just enough. As an officer of the law she has a duty to make apprehensions while maintaining the basic human rights of the prisoner.

I find a couple of things unlikely and requiring explanation, if you pursued this. Your officer is highly trained and presumably used to making captures. Or is she? If she is new, unqualified or unskilled in some way that might justify her fear. Your prisoner could also have a reputation that precedes itself. Even the most skilled and trained officer might be afraid when faced against a notorious fugitive. These are pretty drastic extremes, but sometimes that happens in our writing.



One thing struck me though. Something you said in a comment in response to me asking you if she was highly trained.




Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists,
her chance to apprehend him is gone.




That doesn't sound like she is afraid for her safety. That sounds like she is afraid she might not win.



If she does this just to be sure she wins, because she always gets her man, and they never escape when she does, then she is a sociopath. This is absolutely brutality.



But then again, maybe she needs to get her man because too much is at stake if he escapes. Too many people will die.



Or they live in a police state.



Regardless of which direction you go with, you should research takedown and restraint techniques for people of smaller stature vs people much bigger than them. Something tells me that even if she was okay with brutality,






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    prisoner is known to be potentially lethal. She is experienced, but feels these measures are required to ensure success and her own safety.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 1:19






  • 5





    @Rasdashan there is a difference between apprehending a known murderer and pursuing Jason Bourne. Many dangerous criminal are potentially lethal. If that alone was justification you would see cops carrying choke collars with their handcuffs.

    – bruglesco
    Mar 28 at 1:22











  • He is a bit more Jason Bourne than known killer.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 1:34






  • 2





    @Rasdashan Well if she knows that, then yes, maybe.

    – bruglesco
    Mar 28 at 1:36















6














Justification is a theme for you to explore



You decide what is justified. You decide what gives someone the right to do what she does.



  • Do the ends justify the means?

  • For the greater good.

  • Fear and self-defense. Is it self-defense when she is the pursuer?

  • No cause is just enough. As an officer of the law she has a duty to make apprehensions while maintaining the basic human rights of the prisoner.

I find a couple of things unlikely and requiring explanation, if you pursued this. Your officer is highly trained and presumably used to making captures. Or is she? If she is new, unqualified or unskilled in some way that might justify her fear. Your prisoner could also have a reputation that precedes itself. Even the most skilled and trained officer might be afraid when faced against a notorious fugitive. These are pretty drastic extremes, but sometimes that happens in our writing.



One thing struck me though. Something you said in a comment in response to me asking you if she was highly trained.




Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists,
her chance to apprehend him is gone.




That doesn't sound like she is afraid for her safety. That sounds like she is afraid she might not win.



If she does this just to be sure she wins, because she always gets her man, and they never escape when she does, then she is a sociopath. This is absolutely brutality.



But then again, maybe she needs to get her man because too much is at stake if he escapes. Too many people will die.



Or they live in a police state.



Regardless of which direction you go with, you should research takedown and restraint techniques for people of smaller stature vs people much bigger than them. Something tells me that even if she was okay with brutality,






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    prisoner is known to be potentially lethal. She is experienced, but feels these measures are required to ensure success and her own safety.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 1:19






  • 5





    @Rasdashan there is a difference between apprehending a known murderer and pursuing Jason Bourne. Many dangerous criminal are potentially lethal. If that alone was justification you would see cops carrying choke collars with their handcuffs.

    – bruglesco
    Mar 28 at 1:22











  • He is a bit more Jason Bourne than known killer.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 1:34






  • 2





    @Rasdashan Well if she knows that, then yes, maybe.

    – bruglesco
    Mar 28 at 1:36













6












6








6







Justification is a theme for you to explore



You decide what is justified. You decide what gives someone the right to do what she does.



  • Do the ends justify the means?

  • For the greater good.

  • Fear and self-defense. Is it self-defense when she is the pursuer?

  • No cause is just enough. As an officer of the law she has a duty to make apprehensions while maintaining the basic human rights of the prisoner.

I find a couple of things unlikely and requiring explanation, if you pursued this. Your officer is highly trained and presumably used to making captures. Or is she? If she is new, unqualified or unskilled in some way that might justify her fear. Your prisoner could also have a reputation that precedes itself. Even the most skilled and trained officer might be afraid when faced against a notorious fugitive. These are pretty drastic extremes, but sometimes that happens in our writing.



One thing struck me though. Something you said in a comment in response to me asking you if she was highly trained.




Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists,
her chance to apprehend him is gone.




That doesn't sound like she is afraid for her safety. That sounds like she is afraid she might not win.



If she does this just to be sure she wins, because she always gets her man, and they never escape when she does, then she is a sociopath. This is absolutely brutality.



But then again, maybe she needs to get her man because too much is at stake if he escapes. Too many people will die.



Or they live in a police state.



Regardless of which direction you go with, you should research takedown and restraint techniques for people of smaller stature vs people much bigger than them. Something tells me that even if she was okay with brutality,






share|improve this answer















Justification is a theme for you to explore



You decide what is justified. You decide what gives someone the right to do what she does.



  • Do the ends justify the means?

  • For the greater good.

  • Fear and self-defense. Is it self-defense when she is the pursuer?

  • No cause is just enough. As an officer of the law she has a duty to make apprehensions while maintaining the basic human rights of the prisoner.

I find a couple of things unlikely and requiring explanation, if you pursued this. Your officer is highly trained and presumably used to making captures. Or is she? If she is new, unqualified or unskilled in some way that might justify her fear. Your prisoner could also have a reputation that precedes itself. Even the most skilled and trained officer might be afraid when faced against a notorious fugitive. These are pretty drastic extremes, but sometimes that happens in our writing.



One thing struck me though. Something you said in a comment in response to me asking you if she was highly trained.




Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists,
her chance to apprehend him is gone.




That doesn't sound like she is afraid for her safety. That sounds like she is afraid she might not win.



If she does this just to be sure she wins, because she always gets her man, and they never escape when she does, then she is a sociopath. This is absolutely brutality.



But then again, maybe she needs to get her man because too much is at stake if he escapes. Too many people will die.



Or they live in a police state.



Regardless of which direction you go with, you should research takedown and restraint techniques for people of smaller stature vs people much bigger than them. Something tells me that even if she was okay with brutality,







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Mar 28 at 1:20

























answered Mar 28 at 1:07









bruglescobruglesco

2,590743




2,590743







  • 1





    prisoner is known to be potentially lethal. She is experienced, but feels these measures are required to ensure success and her own safety.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 1:19






  • 5





    @Rasdashan there is a difference between apprehending a known murderer and pursuing Jason Bourne. Many dangerous criminal are potentially lethal. If that alone was justification you would see cops carrying choke collars with their handcuffs.

    – bruglesco
    Mar 28 at 1:22











  • He is a bit more Jason Bourne than known killer.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 1:34






  • 2





    @Rasdashan Well if she knows that, then yes, maybe.

    – bruglesco
    Mar 28 at 1:36












  • 1





    prisoner is known to be potentially lethal. She is experienced, but feels these measures are required to ensure success and her own safety.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 1:19






  • 5





    @Rasdashan there is a difference between apprehending a known murderer and pursuing Jason Bourne. Many dangerous criminal are potentially lethal. If that alone was justification you would see cops carrying choke collars with their handcuffs.

    – bruglesco
    Mar 28 at 1:22











  • He is a bit more Jason Bourne than known killer.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 1:34






  • 2





    @Rasdashan Well if she knows that, then yes, maybe.

    – bruglesco
    Mar 28 at 1:36







1




1





prisoner is known to be potentially lethal. She is experienced, but feels these measures are required to ensure success and her own safety.

– Rasdashan
Mar 28 at 1:19





prisoner is known to be potentially lethal. She is experienced, but feels these measures are required to ensure success and her own safety.

– Rasdashan
Mar 28 at 1:19




5




5





@Rasdashan there is a difference between apprehending a known murderer and pursuing Jason Bourne. Many dangerous criminal are potentially lethal. If that alone was justification you would see cops carrying choke collars with their handcuffs.

– bruglesco
Mar 28 at 1:22





@Rasdashan there is a difference between apprehending a known murderer and pursuing Jason Bourne. Many dangerous criminal are potentially lethal. If that alone was justification you would see cops carrying choke collars with their handcuffs.

– bruglesco
Mar 28 at 1:22













He is a bit more Jason Bourne than known killer.

– Rasdashan
Mar 28 at 1:34





He is a bit more Jason Bourne than known killer.

– Rasdashan
Mar 28 at 1:34




2




2





@Rasdashan Well if she knows that, then yes, maybe.

– bruglesco
Mar 28 at 1:36





@Rasdashan Well if she knows that, then yes, maybe.

– bruglesco
Mar 28 at 1:36











5














It does depend on what her job is.



If she's special forces of some kind, it's very likely this is SOP. MC1 can think himself lucky he's still alive. As with the raid on Bin Laden's compound, taking a target alive is very much secondary.



For the military in general, this is something they shouldn't do, but evidence shows they'll almost certainly get away with it. It took years before anyone noticed that anything was happening at Abu Ghraib, and only then because some inmates died. Until Obama, torture of prisoners was a formal part of US military intelligence procedures - the issue at Abu Ghraib was simply that the staff there had not been told they could torture those prisoners, and that torture was not carried out according to procedures. She'll get a minor warning at best.



For the police in places ruled by law, this will almost certainly result in disciplinary proceedings. MC1 may need to make a formal complaint for that, of course. And the methods are not sound either - if she can rig a chokehold then she can equally well hogtie him, which is a much more effective way of stopping him running off. Or the cuffs can go on his ankles instead of his wrists, because however much bigger he is, removing his mobility limits his range to purely the reach of his arms. Then she waits for backup.



As a civilian, it's more of a grey area. If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal. Since it's a grey area, you may need to convince a court of that, of course.



But then you say it's Bolivia. Transparency International rate it 29/100 and 132nd out of 186 for rule of law. They had (and may still have) literal death squads of police going round executing street kids. For comparison, Saudi Arabia's police routinely sexually assault and beat prisoners as part of their interrogation, and they rate 49/100. Your MC2 is more likely to be commended for ingenuity, possibly with a verbal warning that we don't arrest these sort of people and we don't let them walk away. Normal rule-of-law principles simply don't apply in places like that.






share|improve this answer


















  • 3





    "If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal." This very much depends on local law. In some places, what you say might be true. In others, not so much, depending on circumstances.

    – a CVn
    Mar 28 at 10:06












  • Backup is hours away and she could get him to HQ before they arrived, so she leaves him his legs

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 12:02











  • @aCVn Somewhat agree on the details, but that's the general principle of self-defence as a legal defence, and all systems of justice recognise that principle. The OP's scenario fails on that score because the easiest way to make herself safe is to let him run away - that's where many alleged self-defence cases (e.g. Tony Martin in the UK) fall down.

    – Graham
    Mar 28 at 12:34






  • 2





    @Rasdashan I appreciate that's something which needs to happen in order for the rest of the plot to follow. It's still a bit like the young half-naked female character in a horror movie going down into the cellar though. A reasonably smart regular cop would just sit it out, knowing that however long they wait, they're still safe. Unless you can tweak your story somewhat so that backup isn't coming - maybe in a radio and phone blackspot?

    – Graham
    Mar 28 at 12:57











  • They are in the middle of nowhere and reception is spotty at best. The manhunt is beginning - so they would reach her location by morning. She was nearby when she was called in - thought going to HQ a waste of time they did not have.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 13:27















5














It does depend on what her job is.



If she's special forces of some kind, it's very likely this is SOP. MC1 can think himself lucky he's still alive. As with the raid on Bin Laden's compound, taking a target alive is very much secondary.



For the military in general, this is something they shouldn't do, but evidence shows they'll almost certainly get away with it. It took years before anyone noticed that anything was happening at Abu Ghraib, and only then because some inmates died. Until Obama, torture of prisoners was a formal part of US military intelligence procedures - the issue at Abu Ghraib was simply that the staff there had not been told they could torture those prisoners, and that torture was not carried out according to procedures. She'll get a minor warning at best.



For the police in places ruled by law, this will almost certainly result in disciplinary proceedings. MC1 may need to make a formal complaint for that, of course. And the methods are not sound either - if she can rig a chokehold then she can equally well hogtie him, which is a much more effective way of stopping him running off. Or the cuffs can go on his ankles instead of his wrists, because however much bigger he is, removing his mobility limits his range to purely the reach of his arms. Then she waits for backup.



As a civilian, it's more of a grey area. If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal. Since it's a grey area, you may need to convince a court of that, of course.



But then you say it's Bolivia. Transparency International rate it 29/100 and 132nd out of 186 for rule of law. They had (and may still have) literal death squads of police going round executing street kids. For comparison, Saudi Arabia's police routinely sexually assault and beat prisoners as part of their interrogation, and they rate 49/100. Your MC2 is more likely to be commended for ingenuity, possibly with a verbal warning that we don't arrest these sort of people and we don't let them walk away. Normal rule-of-law principles simply don't apply in places like that.






share|improve this answer


















  • 3





    "If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal." This very much depends on local law. In some places, what you say might be true. In others, not so much, depending on circumstances.

    – a CVn
    Mar 28 at 10:06












  • Backup is hours away and she could get him to HQ before they arrived, so she leaves him his legs

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 12:02











  • @aCVn Somewhat agree on the details, but that's the general principle of self-defence as a legal defence, and all systems of justice recognise that principle. The OP's scenario fails on that score because the easiest way to make herself safe is to let him run away - that's where many alleged self-defence cases (e.g. Tony Martin in the UK) fall down.

    – Graham
    Mar 28 at 12:34






  • 2





    @Rasdashan I appreciate that's something which needs to happen in order for the rest of the plot to follow. It's still a bit like the young half-naked female character in a horror movie going down into the cellar though. A reasonably smart regular cop would just sit it out, knowing that however long they wait, they're still safe. Unless you can tweak your story somewhat so that backup isn't coming - maybe in a radio and phone blackspot?

    – Graham
    Mar 28 at 12:57











  • They are in the middle of nowhere and reception is spotty at best. The manhunt is beginning - so they would reach her location by morning. She was nearby when she was called in - thought going to HQ a waste of time they did not have.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 13:27













5












5








5







It does depend on what her job is.



If she's special forces of some kind, it's very likely this is SOP. MC1 can think himself lucky he's still alive. As with the raid on Bin Laden's compound, taking a target alive is very much secondary.



For the military in general, this is something they shouldn't do, but evidence shows they'll almost certainly get away with it. It took years before anyone noticed that anything was happening at Abu Ghraib, and only then because some inmates died. Until Obama, torture of prisoners was a formal part of US military intelligence procedures - the issue at Abu Ghraib was simply that the staff there had not been told they could torture those prisoners, and that torture was not carried out according to procedures. She'll get a minor warning at best.



For the police in places ruled by law, this will almost certainly result in disciplinary proceedings. MC1 may need to make a formal complaint for that, of course. And the methods are not sound either - if she can rig a chokehold then she can equally well hogtie him, which is a much more effective way of stopping him running off. Or the cuffs can go on his ankles instead of his wrists, because however much bigger he is, removing his mobility limits his range to purely the reach of his arms. Then she waits for backup.



As a civilian, it's more of a grey area. If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal. Since it's a grey area, you may need to convince a court of that, of course.



But then you say it's Bolivia. Transparency International rate it 29/100 and 132nd out of 186 for rule of law. They had (and may still have) literal death squads of police going round executing street kids. For comparison, Saudi Arabia's police routinely sexually assault and beat prisoners as part of their interrogation, and they rate 49/100. Your MC2 is more likely to be commended for ingenuity, possibly with a verbal warning that we don't arrest these sort of people and we don't let them walk away. Normal rule-of-law principles simply don't apply in places like that.






share|improve this answer













It does depend on what her job is.



If she's special forces of some kind, it's very likely this is SOP. MC1 can think himself lucky he's still alive. As with the raid on Bin Laden's compound, taking a target alive is very much secondary.



For the military in general, this is something they shouldn't do, but evidence shows they'll almost certainly get away with it. It took years before anyone noticed that anything was happening at Abu Ghraib, and only then because some inmates died. Until Obama, torture of prisoners was a formal part of US military intelligence procedures - the issue at Abu Ghraib was simply that the staff there had not been told they could torture those prisoners, and that torture was not carried out according to procedures. She'll get a minor warning at best.



For the police in places ruled by law, this will almost certainly result in disciplinary proceedings. MC1 may need to make a formal complaint for that, of course. And the methods are not sound either - if she can rig a chokehold then she can equally well hogtie him, which is a much more effective way of stopping him running off. Or the cuffs can go on his ankles instead of his wrists, because however much bigger he is, removing his mobility limits his range to purely the reach of his arms. Then she waits for backup.



As a civilian, it's more of a grey area. If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal. Since it's a grey area, you may need to convince a court of that, of course.



But then you say it's Bolivia. Transparency International rate it 29/100 and 132nd out of 186 for rule of law. They had (and may still have) literal death squads of police going round executing street kids. For comparison, Saudi Arabia's police routinely sexually assault and beat prisoners as part of their interrogation, and they rate 49/100. Your MC2 is more likely to be commended for ingenuity, possibly with a verbal warning that we don't arrest these sort of people and we don't let them walk away. Normal rule-of-law principles simply don't apply in places like that.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered Mar 28 at 9:05









GrahamGraham

1,11725




1,11725







  • 3





    "If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal." This very much depends on local law. In some places, what you say might be true. In others, not so much, depending on circumstances.

    – a CVn
    Mar 28 at 10:06












  • Backup is hours away and she could get him to HQ before they arrived, so she leaves him his legs

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 12:02











  • @aCVn Somewhat agree on the details, but that's the general principle of self-defence as a legal defence, and all systems of justice recognise that principle. The OP's scenario fails on that score because the easiest way to make herself safe is to let him run away - that's where many alleged self-defence cases (e.g. Tony Martin in the UK) fall down.

    – Graham
    Mar 28 at 12:34






  • 2





    @Rasdashan I appreciate that's something which needs to happen in order for the rest of the plot to follow. It's still a bit like the young half-naked female character in a horror movie going down into the cellar though. A reasonably smart regular cop would just sit it out, knowing that however long they wait, they're still safe. Unless you can tweak your story somewhat so that backup isn't coming - maybe in a radio and phone blackspot?

    – Graham
    Mar 28 at 12:57











  • They are in the middle of nowhere and reception is spotty at best. The manhunt is beginning - so they would reach her location by morning. She was nearby when she was called in - thought going to HQ a waste of time they did not have.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 13:27












  • 3





    "If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal." This very much depends on local law. In some places, what you say might be true. In others, not so much, depending on circumstances.

    – a CVn
    Mar 28 at 10:06












  • Backup is hours away and she could get him to HQ before they arrived, so she leaves him his legs

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 12:02











  • @aCVn Somewhat agree on the details, but that's the general principle of self-defence as a legal defence, and all systems of justice recognise that principle. The OP's scenario fails on that score because the easiest way to make herself safe is to let him run away - that's where many alleged self-defence cases (e.g. Tony Martin in the UK) fall down.

    – Graham
    Mar 28 at 12:34






  • 2





    @Rasdashan I appreciate that's something which needs to happen in order for the rest of the plot to follow. It's still a bit like the young half-naked female character in a horror movie going down into the cellar though. A reasonably smart regular cop would just sit it out, knowing that however long they wait, they're still safe. Unless you can tweak your story somewhat so that backup isn't coming - maybe in a radio and phone blackspot?

    – Graham
    Mar 28 at 12:57











  • They are in the middle of nowhere and reception is spotty at best. The manhunt is beginning - so they would reach her location by morning. She was nearby when she was called in - thought going to HQ a waste of time they did not have.

    – Rasdashan
    Mar 28 at 13:27







3




3





"If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal." This very much depends on local law. In some places, what you say might be true. In others, not so much, depending on circumstances.

– a CVn
Mar 28 at 10:06






"If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal." This very much depends on local law. In some places, what you say might be true. In others, not so much, depending on circumstances.

– a CVn
Mar 28 at 10:06














Backup is hours away and she could get him to HQ before they arrived, so she leaves him his legs

– Rasdashan
Mar 28 at 12:02





Backup is hours away and she could get him to HQ before they arrived, so she leaves him his legs

– Rasdashan
Mar 28 at 12:02













@aCVn Somewhat agree on the details, but that's the general principle of self-defence as a legal defence, and all systems of justice recognise that principle. The OP's scenario fails on that score because the easiest way to make herself safe is to let him run away - that's where many alleged self-defence cases (e.g. Tony Martin in the UK) fall down.

– Graham
Mar 28 at 12:34





@aCVn Somewhat agree on the details, but that's the general principle of self-defence as a legal defence, and all systems of justice recognise that principle. The OP's scenario fails on that score because the easiest way to make herself safe is to let him run away - that's where many alleged self-defence cases (e.g. Tony Martin in the UK) fall down.

– Graham
Mar 28 at 12:34




2




2





@Rasdashan I appreciate that's something which needs to happen in order for the rest of the plot to follow. It's still a bit like the young half-naked female character in a horror movie going down into the cellar though. A reasonably smart regular cop would just sit it out, knowing that however long they wait, they're still safe. Unless you can tweak your story somewhat so that backup isn't coming - maybe in a radio and phone blackspot?

– Graham
Mar 28 at 12:57





@Rasdashan I appreciate that's something which needs to happen in order for the rest of the plot to follow. It's still a bit like the young half-naked female character in a horror movie going down into the cellar though. A reasonably smart regular cop would just sit it out, knowing that however long they wait, they're still safe. Unless you can tweak your story somewhat so that backup isn't coming - maybe in a radio and phone blackspot?

– Graham
Mar 28 at 12:57













They are in the middle of nowhere and reception is spotty at best. The manhunt is beginning - so they would reach her location by morning. She was nearby when she was called in - thought going to HQ a waste of time they did not have.

– Rasdashan
Mar 28 at 13:27





They are in the middle of nowhere and reception is spotty at best. The manhunt is beginning - so they would reach her location by morning. She was nearby when she was called in - thought going to HQ a waste of time they did not have.

– Rasdashan
Mar 28 at 13:27

















draft saved

draft discarded
















































Thanks for contributing an answer to Writing Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid


  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fwriting.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f44118%2fcrossing-the-line-between-justified-force-and-brutality%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

Færeyskur hestur Heimild | Tengill | Tilvísanir | LeiðsagnarvalRossið - síða um færeyska hrossið á færeyskuGott ár hjá færeyska hestinum

He _____ here since 1970 . Answer needed [closed]What does “since he was so high” mean?Meaning of “catch birds for”?How do I ensure “since” takes the meaning I want?“Who cares here” meaningWhat does “right round toward” mean?the time tense (had now been detected)What does the phrase “ring around the roses” mean here?Correct usage of “visited upon”Meaning of “foiled rail sabotage bid”It was the third time I had gone to Rome or It is the third time I had been to Rome

Slayer Innehåll Historia | Stil, komposition och lyrik | Bandets betydelse och framgångar | Sidoprojekt och samarbeten | Kontroverser | Medlemmar | Utmärkelser och nomineringar | Turnéer och festivaler | Diskografi | Referenser | Externa länkar | Navigeringsmenywww.slayer.net”Metal Massacre vol. 1””Metal Massacre vol. 3””Metal Massacre Volume III””Show No Mercy””Haunting the Chapel””Live Undead””Hell Awaits””Reign in Blood””Reign in Blood””Gold & Platinum – Reign in Blood””Golden Gods Awards Winners”originalet”Kerrang! Hall Of Fame””Slayer Looks Back On 37-Year Career In New Video Series: Part Two””South of Heaven””Gold & Platinum – South of Heaven””Seasons in the Abyss””Gold & Platinum - Seasons in the Abyss””Divine Intervention””Divine Intervention - Release group by Slayer””Gold & Platinum - Divine Intervention””Live Intrusion””Undisputed Attitude””Abolish Government/Superficial Love””Release “Slatanic Slaughter: A Tribute to Slayer” by Various Artists””Diabolus in Musica””Soundtrack to the Apocalypse””God Hates Us All””Systematic - Relationships””War at the Warfield””Gold & Platinum - War at the Warfield””Soundtrack to the Apocalypse””Gold & Platinum - Still Reigning””Metallica, Slayer, Iron Mauden Among Winners At Metal Hammer Awards””Eternal Pyre””Eternal Pyre - Slayer release group””Eternal Pyre””Metal Storm Awards 2006””Kerrang! Hall Of Fame””Slayer Wins 'Best Metal' Grammy Award””Slayer Guitarist Jeff Hanneman Dies””Bullet-For My Valentine booed at Metal Hammer Golden Gods Awards””Unholy Aliance””The End Of Slayer?””Slayer: We Could Thrash Out Two More Albums If We're Fast Enough...””'The Unholy Alliance: Chapter III' UK Dates Added”originalet”Megadeth And Slayer To Co-Headline 'Canadian Carnage' Trek”originalet”World Painted Blood””Release “World Painted Blood” by Slayer””Metallica Heading To Cinemas””Slayer, Megadeth To Join Forces For 'European Carnage' Tour - Dec. 18, 2010”originalet”Slayer's Hanneman Contracts Acute Infection; Band To Bring In Guest Guitarist””Cannibal Corpse's Pat O'Brien Will Step In As Slayer's Guest Guitarist”originalet”Slayer’s Jeff Hanneman Dead at 49””Dave Lombardo Says He Made Only $67,000 In 2011 While Touring With Slayer””Slayer: We Do Not Agree With Dave Lombardo's Substance Or Timeline Of Events””Slayer Welcomes Drummer Paul Bostaph Back To The Fold””Slayer Hope to Unveil Never-Before-Heard Jeff Hanneman Material on Next Album””Slayer Debut New Song 'Implode' During Surprise Golden Gods Appearance””Release group Repentless by Slayer””Repentless - Slayer - Credits””Slayer””Metal Storm Awards 2015””Slayer - to release comic book "Repentless #1"””Slayer To Release 'Repentless' 6.66" Vinyl Box Set””BREAKING NEWS: Slayer Announce Farewell Tour””Slayer Recruit Lamb of God, Anthrax, Behemoth + Testament for Final Tour””Slayer lägger ner efter 37 år””Slayer Announces Second North American Leg Of 'Final' Tour””Final World Tour””Slayer Announces Final European Tour With Lamb of God, Anthrax And Obituary””Slayer To Tour Europe With Lamb of God, Anthrax And Obituary””Slayer To Play 'Last French Show Ever' At Next Year's Hellfst””Slayer's Final World Tour Will Extend Into 2019””Death Angel's Rob Cavestany On Slayer's 'Farewell' Tour: 'Some Of Us Could See This Coming'””Testament Has No Plans To Retire Anytime Soon, Says Chuck Billy””Anthrax's Scott Ian On Slayer's 'Farewell' Tour Plans: 'I Was Surprised And I Wasn't Surprised'””Slayer””Slayer's Morbid Schlock””Review/Rock; For Slayer, the Mania Is the Message””Slayer - Biography””Slayer - Reign In Blood”originalet”Dave Lombardo””An exclusive oral history of Slayer”originalet”Exclusive! Interview With Slayer Guitarist Jeff Hanneman”originalet”Thinking Out Loud: Slayer's Kerry King on hair metal, Satan and being polite””Slayer Lyrics””Slayer - Biography””Most influential artists for extreme metal music””Slayer - Reign in Blood””Slayer guitarist Jeff Hanneman dies aged 49””Slatanic Slaughter: A Tribute to Slayer””Gateway to Hell: A Tribute to Slayer””Covered In Blood””Slayer: The Origins of Thrash in San Francisco, CA.””Why They Rule - #6 Slayer”originalet”Guitar World's 100 Greatest Heavy Metal Guitarists Of All Time”originalet”The fans have spoken: Slayer comes out on top in readers' polls”originalet”Tribute to Jeff Hanneman (1964-2013)””Lamb Of God Frontman: We Sound Like A Slayer Rip-Off””BEHEMOTH Frontman Pays Tribute To SLAYER's JEFF HANNEMAN””Slayer, Hatebreed Doing Double Duty On This Year's Ozzfest””System of a Down””Lacuna Coil’s Andrea Ferro Talks Influences, Skateboarding, Band Origins + More””Slayer - Reign in Blood””Into The Lungs of Hell””Slayer rules - en utställning om fans””Slayer and Their Fans Slashed Through a No-Holds-Barred Night at Gas Monkey””Home””Slayer””Gold & Platinum - The Big 4 Live from Sofia, Bulgaria””Exclusive! Interview With Slayer Guitarist Kerry King””2008-02-23: Wiltern, Los Angeles, CA, USA””Slayer's Kerry King To Perform With Megadeth Tonight! - Oct. 21, 2010”originalet”Dave Lombardo - Biography”Slayer Case DismissedArkiveradUltimate Classic Rock: Slayer guitarist Jeff Hanneman dead at 49.”Slayer: "We could never do any thing like Some Kind Of Monster..."””Cannibal Corpse'S Pat O'Brien Will Step In As Slayer'S Guest Guitarist | The Official Slayer Site”originalet”Slayer Wins 'Best Metal' Grammy Award””Slayer Guitarist Jeff Hanneman Dies””Kerrang! Awards 2006 Blog: Kerrang! Hall Of Fame””Kerrang! Awards 2013: Kerrang! Legend”originalet”Metallica, Slayer, Iron Maien Among Winners At Metal Hammer Awards””Metal Hammer Golden Gods Awards””Bullet For My Valentine Booed At Metal Hammer Golden Gods Awards””Metal Storm Awards 2006””Metal Storm Awards 2015””Slayer's Concert History””Slayer - Relationships””Slayer - Releases”Slayers officiella webbplatsSlayer på MusicBrainzOfficiell webbplatsSlayerSlayerr1373445760000 0001 1540 47353068615-5086262726cb13906545x(data)6033143kn20030215029