Why doesn't a particle exert force on itself?
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We all have elaborative discussion in physics about classical mechanics as well as interaction of particles through forces and certain laws which all particles obey.
I want to ask, why doesn't a particle exert a force on itself?
EDIT
Thanks for the respectful answers and comments.I edited this question in order to make it more elaborated.
I just want to convey that I assumed the particle to be a standard model of point mass in classical mechanics. As I don't know why there is a minimum requirement of two particles to interact with fundamental forces of nature,in the similar manner I wanted to ask why doesn't a particle exerts a force on itself?
quantum-mechanics newtonian-mechanics forces classical-mechanics particle-physics
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show 9 more comments
$begingroup$
We all have elaborative discussion in physics about classical mechanics as well as interaction of particles through forces and certain laws which all particles obey.
I want to ask, why doesn't a particle exert a force on itself?
EDIT
Thanks for the respectful answers and comments.I edited this question in order to make it more elaborated.
I just want to convey that I assumed the particle to be a standard model of point mass in classical mechanics. As I don't know why there is a minimum requirement of two particles to interact with fundamental forces of nature,in the similar manner I wanted to ask why doesn't a particle exerts a force on itself?
quantum-mechanics newtonian-mechanics forces classical-mechanics particle-physics
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Abraham–Lorentz force.
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– Keith McClary
May 6 at 4:42
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What's a particle? ;)
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– Guido
May 6 at 13:41
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Actually, if it weren't for the intense gravitational force pulling inward, an electron would be several feet in diameter. (This is, of course, pure bullsith, but can you prove that, with any practical demonstration? In fact, any forces that particles may exert on themselves are irrelevant, so long as they don't cause the particles to explode.)
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– Hot Licks
May 6 at 17:03
7
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By Newton, any force a particle exerts on itself will be cancelled out by an equal and opposite force it also exerts on itself.
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– OrangeDog
May 7 at 10:25
1
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This is inertia!
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– Fattie
May 8 at 10:25
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show 9 more comments
$begingroup$
We all have elaborative discussion in physics about classical mechanics as well as interaction of particles through forces and certain laws which all particles obey.
I want to ask, why doesn't a particle exert a force on itself?
EDIT
Thanks for the respectful answers and comments.I edited this question in order to make it more elaborated.
I just want to convey that I assumed the particle to be a standard model of point mass in classical mechanics. As I don't know why there is a minimum requirement of two particles to interact with fundamental forces of nature,in the similar manner I wanted to ask why doesn't a particle exerts a force on itself?
quantum-mechanics newtonian-mechanics forces classical-mechanics particle-physics
$endgroup$
We all have elaborative discussion in physics about classical mechanics as well as interaction of particles through forces and certain laws which all particles obey.
I want to ask, why doesn't a particle exert a force on itself?
EDIT
Thanks for the respectful answers and comments.I edited this question in order to make it more elaborated.
I just want to convey that I assumed the particle to be a standard model of point mass in classical mechanics. As I don't know why there is a minimum requirement of two particles to interact with fundamental forces of nature,in the similar manner I wanted to ask why doesn't a particle exerts a force on itself?
quantum-mechanics newtonian-mechanics forces classical-mechanics particle-physics
quantum-mechanics newtonian-mechanics forces classical-mechanics particle-physics
edited yesterday
Unique
asked May 5 at 14:19
UniqueUnique
7021215
7021215
13
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Abraham–Lorentz force.
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– Keith McClary
May 6 at 4:42
7
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What's a particle? ;)
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– Guido
May 6 at 13:41
14
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Actually, if it weren't for the intense gravitational force pulling inward, an electron would be several feet in diameter. (This is, of course, pure bullsith, but can you prove that, with any practical demonstration? In fact, any forces that particles may exert on themselves are irrelevant, so long as they don't cause the particles to explode.)
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– Hot Licks
May 6 at 17:03
7
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By Newton, any force a particle exerts on itself will be cancelled out by an equal and opposite force it also exerts on itself.
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– OrangeDog
May 7 at 10:25
1
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This is inertia!
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– Fattie
May 8 at 10:25
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show 9 more comments
13
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Abraham–Lorentz force.
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– Keith McClary
May 6 at 4:42
7
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What's a particle? ;)
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– Guido
May 6 at 13:41
14
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Actually, if it weren't for the intense gravitational force pulling inward, an electron would be several feet in diameter. (This is, of course, pure bullsith, but can you prove that, with any practical demonstration? In fact, any forces that particles may exert on themselves are irrelevant, so long as they don't cause the particles to explode.)
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– Hot Licks
May 6 at 17:03
7
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By Newton, any force a particle exerts on itself will be cancelled out by an equal and opposite force it also exerts on itself.
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– OrangeDog
May 7 at 10:25
1
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This is inertia!
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– Fattie
May 8 at 10:25
13
13
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Abraham–Lorentz force.
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– Keith McClary
May 6 at 4:42
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Abraham–Lorentz force.
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– Keith McClary
May 6 at 4:42
7
7
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What's a particle? ;)
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– Guido
May 6 at 13:41
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What's a particle? ;)
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– Guido
May 6 at 13:41
14
14
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Actually, if it weren't for the intense gravitational force pulling inward, an electron would be several feet in diameter. (This is, of course, pure bullsith, but can you prove that, with any practical demonstration? In fact, any forces that particles may exert on themselves are irrelevant, so long as they don't cause the particles to explode.)
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– Hot Licks
May 6 at 17:03
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Actually, if it weren't for the intense gravitational force pulling inward, an electron would be several feet in diameter. (This is, of course, pure bullsith, but can you prove that, with any practical demonstration? In fact, any forces that particles may exert on themselves are irrelevant, so long as they don't cause the particles to explode.)
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– Hot Licks
May 6 at 17:03
7
7
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By Newton, any force a particle exerts on itself will be cancelled out by an equal and opposite force it also exerts on itself.
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– OrangeDog
May 7 at 10:25
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By Newton, any force a particle exerts on itself will be cancelled out by an equal and opposite force it also exerts on itself.
$endgroup$
– OrangeDog
May 7 at 10:25
1
1
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This is inertia!
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– Fattie
May 8 at 10:25
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This is inertia!
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– Fattie
May 8 at 10:25
|
show 9 more comments
7 Answers
7
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oldest
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This is one of those terribly simple questions which is also astonishingly insightful and surprisingly a big deal in physics. I'd like to commend you for the question!
The classical mechanics answer is "because we say it doesn't." One of the peculiarities about science is that it doesn't tell you the true answer, in the philosophical sense. Science provides you with models which have a historical track record of being very good at letting you predict future outcomes. Particles do not apply forces to themselves in classical mechanics because the classical models which were effective for predicting the state of systems did not have them apply forces.
Now one could provide a justification in classical mechanics. Newton's laws state that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If I push on my table with 50N of force, it pushes back on me with 50N of force in the opposite direction. If you think about it, a particle which pushes on itself with some force is then pushed back by itself in the opposite direction with an equal force. This is like you pushing your hands together really hard. You apply a lot of force, but your hands don't move anywhere because you're just pushing on yourself. Every time you push, you push back.
Now it gets more interesting in quantum mechanics. Without getting into the details, in quantum mechanics, we find that particles do indeed interact with themselves. And they have to interact with their own interactions, and so on and so forth. So once we get down to more fundamental levels, we actually do see meaningful self-interactions of particles. We just don't see them in classical mechanics.
Why? Well, going back to the idea of science creating models of the universe, self-interactions are messy. QM has to do all sorts of clever integration and normalization tricks to make them sane. In classical mechanics, we didn't need self-interactions to properly model how systems evolve over time, so we didn't include any of that complexity. In QM, we found that the models without self-interaction simply weren't effective at predicting what we see. We were forced to bring in self-interaction terms to explain what we saw.
In fact, these self-interactions turn out to be a real bugger. You may have heard of "quantum gravity." One of the things quantum mechanics does not explain very well is gravity. Gravity on these scales is typically too small to measure directly, so we can only infer what it should do. On the other end of the spectrum, general relativity is substantially focused on modeling how gravity works on a universal scale (where objects are big enough that measuring gravitational effects is relatively easy). In general relativity, we see the concept of gravity as distortions in space time, creating all sorts of wonderful visual images of objects resting on rubber sheets, distorting the fabric it rests on.
Unfortunately, these distortions cause a huge problem for quantum mechanics. The normalization techniques they use to deal with all of those self-interaction terms don't work in the distorted spaces that general relativity predicts. The numbers balloon and explode off towards infinity. We predict infinite energy for all particles, and yet there's no reason to believe that is accurate. We simply cannot seem to combine the distortion of space time modeled by Einstein's relativity and the self-interactions of particles in quantum mechanics.
So you ask a very simple question. It's well phrased. In fact, it is so well phrased that I can conclude by saying the answer to your question is one of the great questions physics is searching for to this very day. Entire teams of scientists are trying to tease apart this question of self-interaction and they search for models of gravity which function correctly in the quantum realm!
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This is a decent popularization, but I think it's doing a common unsatisfying thing with quantum gravity. The numbers "balloon and explode off towards infinity" in just about all quantum field theories; gravity is not special in this sense at all. The problems with quantum gravity are more subtle, and are covered elsewhere on this site.
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– knzhou
May 5 at 21:08
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@knzhou My understanding was that the explosions off to infinity could be dealt with via renormalization, but the curvature of space from gravity distorted things such that the math of renormalization no longer worked. Obviously comments aren't the place for correcting QM misconceptions, but is that far from the truth?
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– Cort Ammon
May 6 at 14:24
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Just a note: a classical charged particle exerts a force on itself, a classical gravitating mass exerts a force on itself. It is only that 1) if the forces are contained within a finite isolated body, its center of mass does not exert a force on itself (but a body and/or a particle is rarely isolated), and 2) in the Newtonian limit the gravitational self-force vanishes. It is tempting to make this about the classical vs. quantum realm, but it is more that the self-forces are negligible for the situations treated in a 101 classical mechanics course.
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– Void
May 6 at 15:11
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Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
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– ACuriousMind♦
May 7 at 19:40
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Well, self-interactions aren't really interactions of a particle with itself. It is an interaction of more than one particles of the same kind. Correct me if I am wrong.
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– Feynmans Out for Grumpy Cat
May 21 at 14:43
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This question is never addressed by teachers, altough students start asking it more and more every year (surprisingly). Here are two possible arguments.
A particle is meant to have 0 volume. Maybe you're used to exert a force on yourself, but you are an extended body. Particles are points in space. I find it quite hard to exert a force on the same point. Your stating that the sender is the same as the receiver. It's like saying that one point is gaining momentum from itself! Because forces are a gain in momentum, after all. So how can we expect that some point increases its momentum alone? That violates the conservation of momentum principle.
A visual example (because this question usually arises in Electromagnetism with Coulomb's law):
$$vec{F}=K frac{Qq}{r^2} hat{r}$$
If $r=0$, the force is not defined, what's more, the vector $hat{r}$ doesn't even exist. How could such force "know" where to point to? A point is spherically symmetric. What "arrow" (vector) would the force follow? If all directions are equivalent...
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An accelerated charge does exert a force onto itself in general. That's called radiation reaction force, or Abraham-Lorentz force.
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– Ruslan
May 5 at 15:02
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A charged particle at rest outside an uncharged black hole, or outside an uncharged straight cosmic string, also exerts an electrostatic force on itself. Whenever there is no symmetry to rule it out, you can expect that a self-force does exist!
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– G. Smith
May 5 at 16:54
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The two points in this answer make a spherical cow assumption, by saying a particle is a point.
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– Denis de Bernardy
May 5 at 18:36
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The Standard Model of particle physics assumes that all elementary particles are point particles. Any other assumption is speculative. The Standard Model works well, whereas cows are obviously not spherical.
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– G. Smith
May 5 at 20:59
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@G.Smith Still, models of non-point electron were abundant in early XX c, although they seem to almost always had some errors in mathematical calculations. Rohrlich gives an interesting account of them in his "Classical Charged Particles" (and also claims to provide a resolution to self-interaction problem in classical ED).
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– Joker_vD
May 6 at 10:40
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Well a point particle is just an idealization that has spherical symmetry, and we can imagine that in reality we have some finite volume associated with the "point", in which the total charge is distributed. The argument, at least in electromagnetism, is that the spherical symmetry of the charge together with its own spherically symmetric field will lead to a cancellation when computing the total force of the field on the charge distribution.
So we relax the idealization of a point particle and think of it as a little ball with radius $a$ and some uniform charge distribution: $rho= rho_{o}$ for $r<{a}$, and $rho=0$ otherwise.
We first consider the $r<a$ region and draw a nice little Gaussian sphere of radius $r$ inside of the ball. We have: $$int_{} vec{E}cdot{dvec{A}} =dfrac{Q_{enc}}{epsilon_{0}}$$ $$4pi r^{2}E(r) = frac{1}{epsilon_{0}}frac{4}{3}pi r^{3}rho_{0}
qquad , qquad r<a$$
Now we say that the total charge in this ball is $q=frac{4}{3}pi r^{3}rho_{0}$, then we can take the previous line and do $$4pi r^{2}E(r) = frac{1}{epsilon_{0}}frac{4}{3}pi a^{3}*frac{r^{3}}{a^3}rho_{0}=frac{q}{epsilon_0}frac{r^{3}}{a^{3}}rho_0$$
or
$$vec{E}(r)=frac{q}{4piepsilon_{0}}frac{r}{a^{3}}hat{r} qquad,qquad r<a$$
Outside the ball, we have the usual:
$$vec{E}(r)=frac{q}{4piepsilon_{0}}frac{1}{r^{2}}hat{r} qquad,qquad r>a$$
So we see that even if the ball has a finite volume, it still looks like a point generating a spherically symmetric field if we're looking from the outside. This justifies our treatment of a point charge as a spherical distribution of charge instead (the point limit is just when $a$ goes to $0$).
Now we've established that the field that this finite-sized ball generates is also spherically symmetric, with the origin taken to be the origin of the ball. Since we now have a spherically symmetric charge distribution, centered at the origin of a spherically symmetric field, then the force that charge distribution feels from its own field is now
$$vec{F}=int vec{E} , dq =int_{sphere}vec{E} rho dV = int_{sphere} E(r)hat{r}rho dV$$
which will cancel due to spherical symmetry. I think this argument works in most cases where we have a spherically symmetric interaction (Coulomb, gravitational, etc).
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"A point particle is just an idealization that has spherical symmetry" and the fact that it has spherical symmetry both seem to make a spherical cow assumption.
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– Denis de Bernardy
May 5 at 19:03
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If the sphere is in uniform motion (no acceleration), then there's a cylindrical symetry around the velocity vector. Since the electromagnetic field distribution is dipolar in this case, there's still no force exerted on the sphere by itself. But if the sphere is accelerated, there are an instantaneous velocity and acceleration vectors. These vectors destroy the spherical or cylindrical symetry, which implies that there may be an electromagnetic force. This is the origin of the radiation reaction self-force on the particle.
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– Cham
May 5 at 19:56
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"we can imagine that in reality we have some finite volume associated with the "point" - we have no reason to do so, though...
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– AnoE
May 8 at 11:12
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@AnoE the equations above demonstrate that they are equivalent as far as the electric fields they generate, which is really the only physical quantity that we have to work with that can describe the system. this tells us that these models are equivalent from an electrostatic standpoint. now, we have no reason to assume that the fundamental charges are really 0 dimensional, right? in either case, were assuming an approximate model which makes a mathematical analysis possible. whether we assume 0D or finite D, the answer will not change
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– Wai-Ga D Ho
May 8 at 15:28
add a comment |
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What even is a particle in classical mechanics?
Particles do exist in the real world, but their discovery pretty much made the invention of quantum mechanics necessary.
So to answer this question, you have to set up some straw man of a "classical mechanics particle" and then destroy that. For instance, we may pretend that atoms have the exact same properties as the bulk material, they're just for inexplicable reasons indivisible.
At this point, we cannot say any more whether particles do or do not exert forces on themselves. The particle might exert a gravitational force on itself, compressing it every so slightly. We could not detect this force, because it would always be there and it would linearly add up with other forces. Instead, this force would show up as part of the physical properties of the material, in particular its density. And in classical mechanics, those properties are mostly treated as constants of nature.
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Hello Sir, I thought a particle to be just a tiny point mass!
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– Unique
May 7 at 9:46
add a comment |
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This exact question is considered at the end of Jackson's (somewhat infamous) Classical Electrodynamics. I think it would be appropriate to simply quote the relevant passage:
In the preceding chapters the problems of electrodynamics have been
divided into two classes: one in which the sources of charge and
current are specified and the resulting electromagnetic fields are
calculated, and the other in which the external electromagnetic fields
are specified and the motions of charged particles or currents are
calculated...
It is evident that this manner of handling problems in
electrodynamics can be of only approximate validity. The motion of
charged particles in external force fields necessarily involves the
emission of radiation whenever the charges are accelerated. The
emitted radiation carries off energy, momentum, and angular momentum
and so must influence the subsequent motion of the charged particles.
Consequently the motion of the sources of radiation is determined, in
part, by the manner of emission of the radiation. A correct treatment
must include the reaction of the radiation on the motion of the
sources.
Why is it that we have taken so long in our discussion of
electrodynamics to face this fact? Why is it that many answers
calculated in an apparently erroneous way agree so well with
experiment? A partial answer to the first question lies in the second.
There are very many problems in electrodynamics that can be put with
negligible error into one of the two categories described in the first
paragraph. Hence it is worthwhile discussing them without the
added and unnecessary complication of including reaction effects. The
remaining answer to the first question is that a completely
satisfactory classical treatment of the reactive effects of radiation
does not exist. The difficulties presented by this problem touch one
of the most fundamental aspects of physics, the nature of an
elementary particle. Although partial solutions, workable within
limited areas, can be given, the basic problem remains unsolved.
There are ways to try to handle these self-interactions in the classical context which he discusses in this chapter, i.e. the Abraham-Lorentz force, but it is not fully satisfactory.
However, a naive answer to the question is that really particles are excitations of fields, classical mechanics is simply a certain limit of quantum field theory, and therefore these self-interactions should be considered within that context. This is also not entirely satisfactory, as in quantum field theory it is assumed that the fields interact with themselves, and this interaction is treated only perturbatively. Ultimately there is no universally-accepted, non-perturbative description of what these interactions really are, though string theorists might disagree with me there.
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This answer may a bit technical but the clearest argument that there is always self interaction, that is, a force of a particle on itself comes from lagrangian formalism. If we calculate the EM potential of a charge then the source of the potential, the charge, is given by $q=dL/dV$. This means that $L$ must contain a self interaction term $qV$, which leads to a self force. This is true in classical and in quantum electrodynamics. If this term were absent the charge would have no field at all!
In classical ED the self force is ignored, because attempts to describe have so far been problematic. In QED it gives rise to infinities. Renormalisation techniques in QED are successfully used to tame the infinities and extract physically meaningful, even very accurate effects so called radiation effects originating from the self interaction.
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A point particle charge $q$ does not have to obey equation such as $q = partial L/partial V$, because what is $V$ at the point of point particle? External potential? Then there is no connection between $q,V$. Total potential? Then there is connection, but $V$ is infinite at the very point you would like to apply that equation and the Lagrangian cannot depend on $V$ at that point.
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– Ján Lalinský
May 6 at 19:14
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@JanLalinsky Isn't that exactly the point of this question? Also, I repeat, without self interaction term the point charge has no field so it does obey such an equation.
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– my2cts
May 6 at 20:23
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My point is that your argument is wrong, in fact the Lagrangian does not have to contain a self-interaction term in order a charged particle to produce a field. There is a family of consistent non-quantum-theoretical theories that demonstrate this - action at a distance electrodynamics, by Tetrode, Fokker, Frenkel, Feynman and Wheeler etc.
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– Ján Lalinský
May 6 at 21:45
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@JanLalinsky Standard lagrangians contain self interaction or else charges would it produce fields. Calling my post "wrong" overstates your position. Although interesting, these theories are not mainstream physics. What is their status anyway? See en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler%E2%80%93Feynman_absorber_theory
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– my2cts
May 6 at 21:58
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Those theories are deficient in that they do not capture some phenomena involving charges such as pair creation/destruction. But they are an example that there is no necessity to self-interaction to have a consistent theory of interacting particles that is also consistent with macroscopic EM theory.
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– Ján Lalinský
May 7 at 10:50
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The difficulties presented by this problem touch one of the most fundamental aspects of physics, the nature of the elementary particle. Although partial solutions, workable within limited areas, can be given, the basic problem remains unsolved. One might hope that the transition from classical to quantum-mechanical treatments would remove the difficulties. While there is still hope that this may eventually occur, the present quantum-mechanical discussions are beset with even more elaborate troubles than the classical ones. It is one of the triumphs of comparatively recent years (~ 1948–1950) that the concepts of Lorentz covariance and gauge invariance were exploited sufficiently cleverly to circumvent these difficulties in quantum electrodynamics and so allow the calculation of very small radiative effects to extremely high precision, in full agreement with experiment. From a fundamental point of view, however, the difficulties remain.
John David Jackson, Classical Electrodynamics.
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7 Answers
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This is one of those terribly simple questions which is also astonishingly insightful and surprisingly a big deal in physics. I'd like to commend you for the question!
The classical mechanics answer is "because we say it doesn't." One of the peculiarities about science is that it doesn't tell you the true answer, in the philosophical sense. Science provides you with models which have a historical track record of being very good at letting you predict future outcomes. Particles do not apply forces to themselves in classical mechanics because the classical models which were effective for predicting the state of systems did not have them apply forces.
Now one could provide a justification in classical mechanics. Newton's laws state that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If I push on my table with 50N of force, it pushes back on me with 50N of force in the opposite direction. If you think about it, a particle which pushes on itself with some force is then pushed back by itself in the opposite direction with an equal force. This is like you pushing your hands together really hard. You apply a lot of force, but your hands don't move anywhere because you're just pushing on yourself. Every time you push, you push back.
Now it gets more interesting in quantum mechanics. Without getting into the details, in quantum mechanics, we find that particles do indeed interact with themselves. And they have to interact with their own interactions, and so on and so forth. So once we get down to more fundamental levels, we actually do see meaningful self-interactions of particles. We just don't see them in classical mechanics.
Why? Well, going back to the idea of science creating models of the universe, self-interactions are messy. QM has to do all sorts of clever integration and normalization tricks to make them sane. In classical mechanics, we didn't need self-interactions to properly model how systems evolve over time, so we didn't include any of that complexity. In QM, we found that the models without self-interaction simply weren't effective at predicting what we see. We were forced to bring in self-interaction terms to explain what we saw.
In fact, these self-interactions turn out to be a real bugger. You may have heard of "quantum gravity." One of the things quantum mechanics does not explain very well is gravity. Gravity on these scales is typically too small to measure directly, so we can only infer what it should do. On the other end of the spectrum, general relativity is substantially focused on modeling how gravity works on a universal scale (where objects are big enough that measuring gravitational effects is relatively easy). In general relativity, we see the concept of gravity as distortions in space time, creating all sorts of wonderful visual images of objects resting on rubber sheets, distorting the fabric it rests on.
Unfortunately, these distortions cause a huge problem for quantum mechanics. The normalization techniques they use to deal with all of those self-interaction terms don't work in the distorted spaces that general relativity predicts. The numbers balloon and explode off towards infinity. We predict infinite energy for all particles, and yet there's no reason to believe that is accurate. We simply cannot seem to combine the distortion of space time modeled by Einstein's relativity and the self-interactions of particles in quantum mechanics.
So you ask a very simple question. It's well phrased. In fact, it is so well phrased that I can conclude by saying the answer to your question is one of the great questions physics is searching for to this very day. Entire teams of scientists are trying to tease apart this question of self-interaction and they search for models of gravity which function correctly in the quantum realm!
$endgroup$
13
$begingroup$
This is a decent popularization, but I think it's doing a common unsatisfying thing with quantum gravity. The numbers "balloon and explode off towards infinity" in just about all quantum field theories; gravity is not special in this sense at all. The problems with quantum gravity are more subtle, and are covered elsewhere on this site.
$endgroup$
– knzhou
May 5 at 21:08
1
$begingroup$
@knzhou My understanding was that the explosions off to infinity could be dealt with via renormalization, but the curvature of space from gravity distorted things such that the math of renormalization no longer worked. Obviously comments aren't the place for correcting QM misconceptions, but is that far from the truth?
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
May 6 at 14:24
1
$begingroup$
Just a note: a classical charged particle exerts a force on itself, a classical gravitating mass exerts a force on itself. It is only that 1) if the forces are contained within a finite isolated body, its center of mass does not exert a force on itself (but a body and/or a particle is rarely isolated), and 2) in the Newtonian limit the gravitational self-force vanishes. It is tempting to make this about the classical vs. quantum realm, but it is more that the self-forces are negligible for the situations treated in a 101 classical mechanics course.
$endgroup$
– Void
May 6 at 15:11
$begingroup$
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
$endgroup$
– ACuriousMind♦
May 7 at 19:40
1
$begingroup$
Well, self-interactions aren't really interactions of a particle with itself. It is an interaction of more than one particles of the same kind. Correct me if I am wrong.
$endgroup$
– Feynmans Out for Grumpy Cat
May 21 at 14:43
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
This is one of those terribly simple questions which is also astonishingly insightful and surprisingly a big deal in physics. I'd like to commend you for the question!
The classical mechanics answer is "because we say it doesn't." One of the peculiarities about science is that it doesn't tell you the true answer, in the philosophical sense. Science provides you with models which have a historical track record of being very good at letting you predict future outcomes. Particles do not apply forces to themselves in classical mechanics because the classical models which were effective for predicting the state of systems did not have them apply forces.
Now one could provide a justification in classical mechanics. Newton's laws state that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If I push on my table with 50N of force, it pushes back on me with 50N of force in the opposite direction. If you think about it, a particle which pushes on itself with some force is then pushed back by itself in the opposite direction with an equal force. This is like you pushing your hands together really hard. You apply a lot of force, but your hands don't move anywhere because you're just pushing on yourself. Every time you push, you push back.
Now it gets more interesting in quantum mechanics. Without getting into the details, in quantum mechanics, we find that particles do indeed interact with themselves. And they have to interact with their own interactions, and so on and so forth. So once we get down to more fundamental levels, we actually do see meaningful self-interactions of particles. We just don't see them in classical mechanics.
Why? Well, going back to the idea of science creating models of the universe, self-interactions are messy. QM has to do all sorts of clever integration and normalization tricks to make them sane. In classical mechanics, we didn't need self-interactions to properly model how systems evolve over time, so we didn't include any of that complexity. In QM, we found that the models without self-interaction simply weren't effective at predicting what we see. We were forced to bring in self-interaction terms to explain what we saw.
In fact, these self-interactions turn out to be a real bugger. You may have heard of "quantum gravity." One of the things quantum mechanics does not explain very well is gravity. Gravity on these scales is typically too small to measure directly, so we can only infer what it should do. On the other end of the spectrum, general relativity is substantially focused on modeling how gravity works on a universal scale (where objects are big enough that measuring gravitational effects is relatively easy). In general relativity, we see the concept of gravity as distortions in space time, creating all sorts of wonderful visual images of objects resting on rubber sheets, distorting the fabric it rests on.
Unfortunately, these distortions cause a huge problem for quantum mechanics. The normalization techniques they use to deal with all of those self-interaction terms don't work in the distorted spaces that general relativity predicts. The numbers balloon and explode off towards infinity. We predict infinite energy for all particles, and yet there's no reason to believe that is accurate. We simply cannot seem to combine the distortion of space time modeled by Einstein's relativity and the self-interactions of particles in quantum mechanics.
So you ask a very simple question. It's well phrased. In fact, it is so well phrased that I can conclude by saying the answer to your question is one of the great questions physics is searching for to this very day. Entire teams of scientists are trying to tease apart this question of self-interaction and they search for models of gravity which function correctly in the quantum realm!
$endgroup$
13
$begingroup$
This is a decent popularization, but I think it's doing a common unsatisfying thing with quantum gravity. The numbers "balloon and explode off towards infinity" in just about all quantum field theories; gravity is not special in this sense at all. The problems with quantum gravity are more subtle, and are covered elsewhere on this site.
$endgroup$
– knzhou
May 5 at 21:08
1
$begingroup$
@knzhou My understanding was that the explosions off to infinity could be dealt with via renormalization, but the curvature of space from gravity distorted things such that the math of renormalization no longer worked. Obviously comments aren't the place for correcting QM misconceptions, but is that far from the truth?
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
May 6 at 14:24
1
$begingroup$
Just a note: a classical charged particle exerts a force on itself, a classical gravitating mass exerts a force on itself. It is only that 1) if the forces are contained within a finite isolated body, its center of mass does not exert a force on itself (but a body and/or a particle is rarely isolated), and 2) in the Newtonian limit the gravitational self-force vanishes. It is tempting to make this about the classical vs. quantum realm, but it is more that the self-forces are negligible for the situations treated in a 101 classical mechanics course.
$endgroup$
– Void
May 6 at 15:11
$begingroup$
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
$endgroup$
– ACuriousMind♦
May 7 at 19:40
1
$begingroup$
Well, self-interactions aren't really interactions of a particle with itself. It is an interaction of more than one particles of the same kind. Correct me if I am wrong.
$endgroup$
– Feynmans Out for Grumpy Cat
May 21 at 14:43
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
This is one of those terribly simple questions which is also astonishingly insightful and surprisingly a big deal in physics. I'd like to commend you for the question!
The classical mechanics answer is "because we say it doesn't." One of the peculiarities about science is that it doesn't tell you the true answer, in the philosophical sense. Science provides you with models which have a historical track record of being very good at letting you predict future outcomes. Particles do not apply forces to themselves in classical mechanics because the classical models which were effective for predicting the state of systems did not have them apply forces.
Now one could provide a justification in classical mechanics. Newton's laws state that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If I push on my table with 50N of force, it pushes back on me with 50N of force in the opposite direction. If you think about it, a particle which pushes on itself with some force is then pushed back by itself in the opposite direction with an equal force. This is like you pushing your hands together really hard. You apply a lot of force, but your hands don't move anywhere because you're just pushing on yourself. Every time you push, you push back.
Now it gets more interesting in quantum mechanics. Without getting into the details, in quantum mechanics, we find that particles do indeed interact with themselves. And they have to interact with their own interactions, and so on and so forth. So once we get down to more fundamental levels, we actually do see meaningful self-interactions of particles. We just don't see them in classical mechanics.
Why? Well, going back to the idea of science creating models of the universe, self-interactions are messy. QM has to do all sorts of clever integration and normalization tricks to make them sane. In classical mechanics, we didn't need self-interactions to properly model how systems evolve over time, so we didn't include any of that complexity. In QM, we found that the models without self-interaction simply weren't effective at predicting what we see. We were forced to bring in self-interaction terms to explain what we saw.
In fact, these self-interactions turn out to be a real bugger. You may have heard of "quantum gravity." One of the things quantum mechanics does not explain very well is gravity. Gravity on these scales is typically too small to measure directly, so we can only infer what it should do. On the other end of the spectrum, general relativity is substantially focused on modeling how gravity works on a universal scale (where objects are big enough that measuring gravitational effects is relatively easy). In general relativity, we see the concept of gravity as distortions in space time, creating all sorts of wonderful visual images of objects resting on rubber sheets, distorting the fabric it rests on.
Unfortunately, these distortions cause a huge problem for quantum mechanics. The normalization techniques they use to deal with all of those self-interaction terms don't work in the distorted spaces that general relativity predicts. The numbers balloon and explode off towards infinity. We predict infinite energy for all particles, and yet there's no reason to believe that is accurate. We simply cannot seem to combine the distortion of space time modeled by Einstein's relativity and the self-interactions of particles in quantum mechanics.
So you ask a very simple question. It's well phrased. In fact, it is so well phrased that I can conclude by saying the answer to your question is one of the great questions physics is searching for to this very day. Entire teams of scientists are trying to tease apart this question of self-interaction and they search for models of gravity which function correctly in the quantum realm!
$endgroup$
This is one of those terribly simple questions which is also astonishingly insightful and surprisingly a big deal in physics. I'd like to commend you for the question!
The classical mechanics answer is "because we say it doesn't." One of the peculiarities about science is that it doesn't tell you the true answer, in the philosophical sense. Science provides you with models which have a historical track record of being very good at letting you predict future outcomes. Particles do not apply forces to themselves in classical mechanics because the classical models which were effective for predicting the state of systems did not have them apply forces.
Now one could provide a justification in classical mechanics. Newton's laws state that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If I push on my table with 50N of force, it pushes back on me with 50N of force in the opposite direction. If you think about it, a particle which pushes on itself with some force is then pushed back by itself in the opposite direction with an equal force. This is like you pushing your hands together really hard. You apply a lot of force, but your hands don't move anywhere because you're just pushing on yourself. Every time you push, you push back.
Now it gets more interesting in quantum mechanics. Without getting into the details, in quantum mechanics, we find that particles do indeed interact with themselves. And they have to interact with their own interactions, and so on and so forth. So once we get down to more fundamental levels, we actually do see meaningful self-interactions of particles. We just don't see them in classical mechanics.
Why? Well, going back to the idea of science creating models of the universe, self-interactions are messy. QM has to do all sorts of clever integration and normalization tricks to make them sane. In classical mechanics, we didn't need self-interactions to properly model how systems evolve over time, so we didn't include any of that complexity. In QM, we found that the models without self-interaction simply weren't effective at predicting what we see. We were forced to bring in self-interaction terms to explain what we saw.
In fact, these self-interactions turn out to be a real bugger. You may have heard of "quantum gravity." One of the things quantum mechanics does not explain very well is gravity. Gravity on these scales is typically too small to measure directly, so we can only infer what it should do. On the other end of the spectrum, general relativity is substantially focused on modeling how gravity works on a universal scale (where objects are big enough that measuring gravitational effects is relatively easy). In general relativity, we see the concept of gravity as distortions in space time, creating all sorts of wonderful visual images of objects resting on rubber sheets, distorting the fabric it rests on.
Unfortunately, these distortions cause a huge problem for quantum mechanics. The normalization techniques they use to deal with all of those self-interaction terms don't work in the distorted spaces that general relativity predicts. The numbers balloon and explode off towards infinity. We predict infinite energy for all particles, and yet there's no reason to believe that is accurate. We simply cannot seem to combine the distortion of space time modeled by Einstein's relativity and the self-interactions of particles in quantum mechanics.
So you ask a very simple question. It's well phrased. In fact, it is so well phrased that I can conclude by saying the answer to your question is one of the great questions physics is searching for to this very day. Entire teams of scientists are trying to tease apart this question of self-interaction and they search for models of gravity which function correctly in the quantum realm!
answered May 5 at 14:51
Cort AmmonCort Ammon
25.4k45286
25.4k45286
13
$begingroup$
This is a decent popularization, but I think it's doing a common unsatisfying thing with quantum gravity. The numbers "balloon and explode off towards infinity" in just about all quantum field theories; gravity is not special in this sense at all. The problems with quantum gravity are more subtle, and are covered elsewhere on this site.
$endgroup$
– knzhou
May 5 at 21:08
1
$begingroup$
@knzhou My understanding was that the explosions off to infinity could be dealt with via renormalization, but the curvature of space from gravity distorted things such that the math of renormalization no longer worked. Obviously comments aren't the place for correcting QM misconceptions, but is that far from the truth?
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
May 6 at 14:24
1
$begingroup$
Just a note: a classical charged particle exerts a force on itself, a classical gravitating mass exerts a force on itself. It is only that 1) if the forces are contained within a finite isolated body, its center of mass does not exert a force on itself (but a body and/or a particle is rarely isolated), and 2) in the Newtonian limit the gravitational self-force vanishes. It is tempting to make this about the classical vs. quantum realm, but it is more that the self-forces are negligible for the situations treated in a 101 classical mechanics course.
$endgroup$
– Void
May 6 at 15:11
$begingroup$
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
$endgroup$
– ACuriousMind♦
May 7 at 19:40
1
$begingroup$
Well, self-interactions aren't really interactions of a particle with itself. It is an interaction of more than one particles of the same kind. Correct me if I am wrong.
$endgroup$
– Feynmans Out for Grumpy Cat
May 21 at 14:43
|
show 1 more comment
13
$begingroup$
This is a decent popularization, but I think it's doing a common unsatisfying thing with quantum gravity. The numbers "balloon and explode off towards infinity" in just about all quantum field theories; gravity is not special in this sense at all. The problems with quantum gravity are more subtle, and are covered elsewhere on this site.
$endgroup$
– knzhou
May 5 at 21:08
1
$begingroup$
@knzhou My understanding was that the explosions off to infinity could be dealt with via renormalization, but the curvature of space from gravity distorted things such that the math of renormalization no longer worked. Obviously comments aren't the place for correcting QM misconceptions, but is that far from the truth?
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
May 6 at 14:24
1
$begingroup$
Just a note: a classical charged particle exerts a force on itself, a classical gravitating mass exerts a force on itself. It is only that 1) if the forces are contained within a finite isolated body, its center of mass does not exert a force on itself (but a body and/or a particle is rarely isolated), and 2) in the Newtonian limit the gravitational self-force vanishes. It is tempting to make this about the classical vs. quantum realm, but it is more that the self-forces are negligible for the situations treated in a 101 classical mechanics course.
$endgroup$
– Void
May 6 at 15:11
$begingroup$
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
$endgroup$
– ACuriousMind♦
May 7 at 19:40
1
$begingroup$
Well, self-interactions aren't really interactions of a particle with itself. It is an interaction of more than one particles of the same kind. Correct me if I am wrong.
$endgroup$
– Feynmans Out for Grumpy Cat
May 21 at 14:43
13
13
$begingroup$
This is a decent popularization, but I think it's doing a common unsatisfying thing with quantum gravity. The numbers "balloon and explode off towards infinity" in just about all quantum field theories; gravity is not special in this sense at all. The problems with quantum gravity are more subtle, and are covered elsewhere on this site.
$endgroup$
– knzhou
May 5 at 21:08
$begingroup$
This is a decent popularization, but I think it's doing a common unsatisfying thing with quantum gravity. The numbers "balloon and explode off towards infinity" in just about all quantum field theories; gravity is not special in this sense at all. The problems with quantum gravity are more subtle, and are covered elsewhere on this site.
$endgroup$
– knzhou
May 5 at 21:08
1
1
$begingroup$
@knzhou My understanding was that the explosions off to infinity could be dealt with via renormalization, but the curvature of space from gravity distorted things such that the math of renormalization no longer worked. Obviously comments aren't the place for correcting QM misconceptions, but is that far from the truth?
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
May 6 at 14:24
$begingroup$
@knzhou My understanding was that the explosions off to infinity could be dealt with via renormalization, but the curvature of space from gravity distorted things such that the math of renormalization no longer worked. Obviously comments aren't the place for correcting QM misconceptions, but is that far from the truth?
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
May 6 at 14:24
1
1
$begingroup$
Just a note: a classical charged particle exerts a force on itself, a classical gravitating mass exerts a force on itself. It is only that 1) if the forces are contained within a finite isolated body, its center of mass does not exert a force on itself (but a body and/or a particle is rarely isolated), and 2) in the Newtonian limit the gravitational self-force vanishes. It is tempting to make this about the classical vs. quantum realm, but it is more that the self-forces are negligible for the situations treated in a 101 classical mechanics course.
$endgroup$
– Void
May 6 at 15:11
$begingroup$
Just a note: a classical charged particle exerts a force on itself, a classical gravitating mass exerts a force on itself. It is only that 1) if the forces are contained within a finite isolated body, its center of mass does not exert a force on itself (but a body and/or a particle is rarely isolated), and 2) in the Newtonian limit the gravitational self-force vanishes. It is tempting to make this about the classical vs. quantum realm, but it is more that the self-forces are negligible for the situations treated in a 101 classical mechanics course.
$endgroup$
– Void
May 6 at 15:11
$begingroup$
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
$endgroup$
– ACuriousMind♦
May 7 at 19:40
$begingroup$
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
$endgroup$
– ACuriousMind♦
May 7 at 19:40
1
1
$begingroup$
Well, self-interactions aren't really interactions of a particle with itself. It is an interaction of more than one particles of the same kind. Correct me if I am wrong.
$endgroup$
– Feynmans Out for Grumpy Cat
May 21 at 14:43
$begingroup$
Well, self-interactions aren't really interactions of a particle with itself. It is an interaction of more than one particles of the same kind. Correct me if I am wrong.
$endgroup$
– Feynmans Out for Grumpy Cat
May 21 at 14:43
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
This question is never addressed by teachers, altough students start asking it more and more every year (surprisingly). Here are two possible arguments.
A particle is meant to have 0 volume. Maybe you're used to exert a force on yourself, but you are an extended body. Particles are points in space. I find it quite hard to exert a force on the same point. Your stating that the sender is the same as the receiver. It's like saying that one point is gaining momentum from itself! Because forces are a gain in momentum, after all. So how can we expect that some point increases its momentum alone? That violates the conservation of momentum principle.
A visual example (because this question usually arises in Electromagnetism with Coulomb's law):
$$vec{F}=K frac{Qq}{r^2} hat{r}$$
If $r=0$, the force is not defined, what's more, the vector $hat{r}$ doesn't even exist. How could such force "know" where to point to? A point is spherically symmetric. What "arrow" (vector) would the force follow? If all directions are equivalent...
$endgroup$
9
$begingroup$
An accelerated charge does exert a force onto itself in general. That's called radiation reaction force, or Abraham-Lorentz force.
$endgroup$
– Ruslan
May 5 at 15:02
2
$begingroup$
A charged particle at rest outside an uncharged black hole, or outside an uncharged straight cosmic string, also exerts an electrostatic force on itself. Whenever there is no symmetry to rule it out, you can expect that a self-force does exist!
$endgroup$
– G. Smith
May 5 at 16:54
4
$begingroup$
The two points in this answer make a spherical cow assumption, by saying a particle is a point.
$endgroup$
– Denis de Bernardy
May 5 at 18:36
3
$begingroup$
The Standard Model of particle physics assumes that all elementary particles are point particles. Any other assumption is speculative. The Standard Model works well, whereas cows are obviously not spherical.
$endgroup$
– G. Smith
May 5 at 20:59
$begingroup$
@G.Smith Still, models of non-point electron were abundant in early XX c, although they seem to almost always had some errors in mathematical calculations. Rohrlich gives an interesting account of them in his "Classical Charged Particles" (and also claims to provide a resolution to self-interaction problem in classical ED).
$endgroup$
– Joker_vD
May 6 at 10:40
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
This question is never addressed by teachers, altough students start asking it more and more every year (surprisingly). Here are two possible arguments.
A particle is meant to have 0 volume. Maybe you're used to exert a force on yourself, but you are an extended body. Particles are points in space. I find it quite hard to exert a force on the same point. Your stating that the sender is the same as the receiver. It's like saying that one point is gaining momentum from itself! Because forces are a gain in momentum, after all. So how can we expect that some point increases its momentum alone? That violates the conservation of momentum principle.
A visual example (because this question usually arises in Electromagnetism with Coulomb's law):
$$vec{F}=K frac{Qq}{r^2} hat{r}$$
If $r=0$, the force is not defined, what's more, the vector $hat{r}$ doesn't even exist. How could such force "know" where to point to? A point is spherically symmetric. What "arrow" (vector) would the force follow? If all directions are equivalent...
$endgroup$
9
$begingroup$
An accelerated charge does exert a force onto itself in general. That's called radiation reaction force, or Abraham-Lorentz force.
$endgroup$
– Ruslan
May 5 at 15:02
2
$begingroup$
A charged particle at rest outside an uncharged black hole, or outside an uncharged straight cosmic string, also exerts an electrostatic force on itself. Whenever there is no symmetry to rule it out, you can expect that a self-force does exist!
$endgroup$
– G. Smith
May 5 at 16:54
4
$begingroup$
The two points in this answer make a spherical cow assumption, by saying a particle is a point.
$endgroup$
– Denis de Bernardy
May 5 at 18:36
3
$begingroup$
The Standard Model of particle physics assumes that all elementary particles are point particles. Any other assumption is speculative. The Standard Model works well, whereas cows are obviously not spherical.
$endgroup$
– G. Smith
May 5 at 20:59
$begingroup$
@G.Smith Still, models of non-point electron were abundant in early XX c, although they seem to almost always had some errors in mathematical calculations. Rohrlich gives an interesting account of them in his "Classical Charged Particles" (and also claims to provide a resolution to self-interaction problem in classical ED).
$endgroup$
– Joker_vD
May 6 at 10:40
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
This question is never addressed by teachers, altough students start asking it more and more every year (surprisingly). Here are two possible arguments.
A particle is meant to have 0 volume. Maybe you're used to exert a force on yourself, but you are an extended body. Particles are points in space. I find it quite hard to exert a force on the same point. Your stating that the sender is the same as the receiver. It's like saying that one point is gaining momentum from itself! Because forces are a gain in momentum, after all. So how can we expect that some point increases its momentum alone? That violates the conservation of momentum principle.
A visual example (because this question usually arises in Electromagnetism with Coulomb's law):
$$vec{F}=K frac{Qq}{r^2} hat{r}$$
If $r=0$, the force is not defined, what's more, the vector $hat{r}$ doesn't even exist. How could such force "know" where to point to? A point is spherically symmetric. What "arrow" (vector) would the force follow? If all directions are equivalent...
$endgroup$
This question is never addressed by teachers, altough students start asking it more and more every year (surprisingly). Here are two possible arguments.
A particle is meant to have 0 volume. Maybe you're used to exert a force on yourself, but you are an extended body. Particles are points in space. I find it quite hard to exert a force on the same point. Your stating that the sender is the same as the receiver. It's like saying that one point is gaining momentum from itself! Because forces are a gain in momentum, after all. So how can we expect that some point increases its momentum alone? That violates the conservation of momentum principle.
A visual example (because this question usually arises in Electromagnetism with Coulomb's law):
$$vec{F}=K frac{Qq}{r^2} hat{r}$$
If $r=0$, the force is not defined, what's more, the vector $hat{r}$ doesn't even exist. How could such force "know" where to point to? A point is spherically symmetric. What "arrow" (vector) would the force follow? If all directions are equivalent...
edited May 6 at 16:27
user191954
answered May 5 at 14:39
FGSUZFGSUZ
5,04121027
5,04121027
9
$begingroup$
An accelerated charge does exert a force onto itself in general. That's called radiation reaction force, or Abraham-Lorentz force.
$endgroup$
– Ruslan
May 5 at 15:02
2
$begingroup$
A charged particle at rest outside an uncharged black hole, or outside an uncharged straight cosmic string, also exerts an electrostatic force on itself. Whenever there is no symmetry to rule it out, you can expect that a self-force does exist!
$endgroup$
– G. Smith
May 5 at 16:54
4
$begingroup$
The two points in this answer make a spherical cow assumption, by saying a particle is a point.
$endgroup$
– Denis de Bernardy
May 5 at 18:36
3
$begingroup$
The Standard Model of particle physics assumes that all elementary particles are point particles. Any other assumption is speculative. The Standard Model works well, whereas cows are obviously not spherical.
$endgroup$
– G. Smith
May 5 at 20:59
$begingroup$
@G.Smith Still, models of non-point electron were abundant in early XX c, although they seem to almost always had some errors in mathematical calculations. Rohrlich gives an interesting account of them in his "Classical Charged Particles" (and also claims to provide a resolution to self-interaction problem in classical ED).
$endgroup$
– Joker_vD
May 6 at 10:40
|
show 2 more comments
9
$begingroup$
An accelerated charge does exert a force onto itself in general. That's called radiation reaction force, or Abraham-Lorentz force.
$endgroup$
– Ruslan
May 5 at 15:02
2
$begingroup$
A charged particle at rest outside an uncharged black hole, or outside an uncharged straight cosmic string, also exerts an electrostatic force on itself. Whenever there is no symmetry to rule it out, you can expect that a self-force does exist!
$endgroup$
– G. Smith
May 5 at 16:54
4
$begingroup$
The two points in this answer make a spherical cow assumption, by saying a particle is a point.
$endgroup$
– Denis de Bernardy
May 5 at 18:36
3
$begingroup$
The Standard Model of particle physics assumes that all elementary particles are point particles. Any other assumption is speculative. The Standard Model works well, whereas cows are obviously not spherical.
$endgroup$
– G. Smith
May 5 at 20:59
$begingroup$
@G.Smith Still, models of non-point electron were abundant in early XX c, although they seem to almost always had some errors in mathematical calculations. Rohrlich gives an interesting account of them in his "Classical Charged Particles" (and also claims to provide a resolution to self-interaction problem in classical ED).
$endgroup$
– Joker_vD
May 6 at 10:40
9
9
$begingroup$
An accelerated charge does exert a force onto itself in general. That's called radiation reaction force, or Abraham-Lorentz force.
$endgroup$
– Ruslan
May 5 at 15:02
$begingroup$
An accelerated charge does exert a force onto itself in general. That's called radiation reaction force, or Abraham-Lorentz force.
$endgroup$
– Ruslan
May 5 at 15:02
2
2
$begingroup$
A charged particle at rest outside an uncharged black hole, or outside an uncharged straight cosmic string, also exerts an electrostatic force on itself. Whenever there is no symmetry to rule it out, you can expect that a self-force does exist!
$endgroup$
– G. Smith
May 5 at 16:54
$begingroup$
A charged particle at rest outside an uncharged black hole, or outside an uncharged straight cosmic string, also exerts an electrostatic force on itself. Whenever there is no symmetry to rule it out, you can expect that a self-force does exist!
$endgroup$
– G. Smith
May 5 at 16:54
4
4
$begingroup$
The two points in this answer make a spherical cow assumption, by saying a particle is a point.
$endgroup$
– Denis de Bernardy
May 5 at 18:36
$begingroup$
The two points in this answer make a spherical cow assumption, by saying a particle is a point.
$endgroup$
– Denis de Bernardy
May 5 at 18:36
3
3
$begingroup$
The Standard Model of particle physics assumes that all elementary particles are point particles. Any other assumption is speculative. The Standard Model works well, whereas cows are obviously not spherical.
$endgroup$
– G. Smith
May 5 at 20:59
$begingroup$
The Standard Model of particle physics assumes that all elementary particles are point particles. Any other assumption is speculative. The Standard Model works well, whereas cows are obviously not spherical.
$endgroup$
– G. Smith
May 5 at 20:59
$begingroup$
@G.Smith Still, models of non-point electron were abundant in early XX c, although they seem to almost always had some errors in mathematical calculations. Rohrlich gives an interesting account of them in his "Classical Charged Particles" (and also claims to provide a resolution to self-interaction problem in classical ED).
$endgroup$
– Joker_vD
May 6 at 10:40
$begingroup$
@G.Smith Still, models of non-point electron were abundant in early XX c, although they seem to almost always had some errors in mathematical calculations. Rohrlich gives an interesting account of them in his "Classical Charged Particles" (and also claims to provide a resolution to self-interaction problem in classical ED).
$endgroup$
– Joker_vD
May 6 at 10:40
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Well a point particle is just an idealization that has spherical symmetry, and we can imagine that in reality we have some finite volume associated with the "point", in which the total charge is distributed. The argument, at least in electromagnetism, is that the spherical symmetry of the charge together with its own spherically symmetric field will lead to a cancellation when computing the total force of the field on the charge distribution.
So we relax the idealization of a point particle and think of it as a little ball with radius $a$ and some uniform charge distribution: $rho= rho_{o}$ for $r<{a}$, and $rho=0$ otherwise.
We first consider the $r<a$ region and draw a nice little Gaussian sphere of radius $r$ inside of the ball. We have: $$int_{} vec{E}cdot{dvec{A}} =dfrac{Q_{enc}}{epsilon_{0}}$$ $$4pi r^{2}E(r) = frac{1}{epsilon_{0}}frac{4}{3}pi r^{3}rho_{0}
qquad , qquad r<a$$
Now we say that the total charge in this ball is $q=frac{4}{3}pi r^{3}rho_{0}$, then we can take the previous line and do $$4pi r^{2}E(r) = frac{1}{epsilon_{0}}frac{4}{3}pi a^{3}*frac{r^{3}}{a^3}rho_{0}=frac{q}{epsilon_0}frac{r^{3}}{a^{3}}rho_0$$
or
$$vec{E}(r)=frac{q}{4piepsilon_{0}}frac{r}{a^{3}}hat{r} qquad,qquad r<a$$
Outside the ball, we have the usual:
$$vec{E}(r)=frac{q}{4piepsilon_{0}}frac{1}{r^{2}}hat{r} qquad,qquad r>a$$
So we see that even if the ball has a finite volume, it still looks like a point generating a spherically symmetric field if we're looking from the outside. This justifies our treatment of a point charge as a spherical distribution of charge instead (the point limit is just when $a$ goes to $0$).
Now we've established that the field that this finite-sized ball generates is also spherically symmetric, with the origin taken to be the origin of the ball. Since we now have a spherically symmetric charge distribution, centered at the origin of a spherically symmetric field, then the force that charge distribution feels from its own field is now
$$vec{F}=int vec{E} , dq =int_{sphere}vec{E} rho dV = int_{sphere} E(r)hat{r}rho dV$$
which will cancel due to spherical symmetry. I think this argument works in most cases where we have a spherically symmetric interaction (Coulomb, gravitational, etc).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
"A point particle is just an idealization that has spherical symmetry" and the fact that it has spherical symmetry both seem to make a spherical cow assumption.
$endgroup$
– Denis de Bernardy
May 5 at 19:03
4
$begingroup$
If the sphere is in uniform motion (no acceleration), then there's a cylindrical symetry around the velocity vector. Since the electromagnetic field distribution is dipolar in this case, there's still no force exerted on the sphere by itself. But if the sphere is accelerated, there are an instantaneous velocity and acceleration vectors. These vectors destroy the spherical or cylindrical symetry, which implies that there may be an electromagnetic force. This is the origin of the radiation reaction self-force on the particle.
$endgroup$
– Cham
May 5 at 19:56
$begingroup$
"we can imagine that in reality we have some finite volume associated with the "point" - we have no reason to do so, though...
$endgroup$
– AnoE
May 8 at 11:12
$begingroup$
@AnoE the equations above demonstrate that they are equivalent as far as the electric fields they generate, which is really the only physical quantity that we have to work with that can describe the system. this tells us that these models are equivalent from an electrostatic standpoint. now, we have no reason to assume that the fundamental charges are really 0 dimensional, right? in either case, were assuming an approximate model which makes a mathematical analysis possible. whether we assume 0D or finite D, the answer will not change
$endgroup$
– Wai-Ga D Ho
May 8 at 15:28
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Well a point particle is just an idealization that has spherical symmetry, and we can imagine that in reality we have some finite volume associated with the "point", in which the total charge is distributed. The argument, at least in electromagnetism, is that the spherical symmetry of the charge together with its own spherically symmetric field will lead to a cancellation when computing the total force of the field on the charge distribution.
So we relax the idealization of a point particle and think of it as a little ball with radius $a$ and some uniform charge distribution: $rho= rho_{o}$ for $r<{a}$, and $rho=0$ otherwise.
We first consider the $r<a$ region and draw a nice little Gaussian sphere of radius $r$ inside of the ball. We have: $$int_{} vec{E}cdot{dvec{A}} =dfrac{Q_{enc}}{epsilon_{0}}$$ $$4pi r^{2}E(r) = frac{1}{epsilon_{0}}frac{4}{3}pi r^{3}rho_{0}
qquad , qquad r<a$$
Now we say that the total charge in this ball is $q=frac{4}{3}pi r^{3}rho_{0}$, then we can take the previous line and do $$4pi r^{2}E(r) = frac{1}{epsilon_{0}}frac{4}{3}pi a^{3}*frac{r^{3}}{a^3}rho_{0}=frac{q}{epsilon_0}frac{r^{3}}{a^{3}}rho_0$$
or
$$vec{E}(r)=frac{q}{4piepsilon_{0}}frac{r}{a^{3}}hat{r} qquad,qquad r<a$$
Outside the ball, we have the usual:
$$vec{E}(r)=frac{q}{4piepsilon_{0}}frac{1}{r^{2}}hat{r} qquad,qquad r>a$$
So we see that even if the ball has a finite volume, it still looks like a point generating a spherically symmetric field if we're looking from the outside. This justifies our treatment of a point charge as a spherical distribution of charge instead (the point limit is just when $a$ goes to $0$).
Now we've established that the field that this finite-sized ball generates is also spherically symmetric, with the origin taken to be the origin of the ball. Since we now have a spherically symmetric charge distribution, centered at the origin of a spherically symmetric field, then the force that charge distribution feels from its own field is now
$$vec{F}=int vec{E} , dq =int_{sphere}vec{E} rho dV = int_{sphere} E(r)hat{r}rho dV$$
which will cancel due to spherical symmetry. I think this argument works in most cases where we have a spherically symmetric interaction (Coulomb, gravitational, etc).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
"A point particle is just an idealization that has spherical symmetry" and the fact that it has spherical symmetry both seem to make a spherical cow assumption.
$endgroup$
– Denis de Bernardy
May 5 at 19:03
4
$begingroup$
If the sphere is in uniform motion (no acceleration), then there's a cylindrical symetry around the velocity vector. Since the electromagnetic field distribution is dipolar in this case, there's still no force exerted on the sphere by itself. But if the sphere is accelerated, there are an instantaneous velocity and acceleration vectors. These vectors destroy the spherical or cylindrical symetry, which implies that there may be an electromagnetic force. This is the origin of the radiation reaction self-force on the particle.
$endgroup$
– Cham
May 5 at 19:56
$begingroup$
"we can imagine that in reality we have some finite volume associated with the "point" - we have no reason to do so, though...
$endgroup$
– AnoE
May 8 at 11:12
$begingroup$
@AnoE the equations above demonstrate that they are equivalent as far as the electric fields they generate, which is really the only physical quantity that we have to work with that can describe the system. this tells us that these models are equivalent from an electrostatic standpoint. now, we have no reason to assume that the fundamental charges are really 0 dimensional, right? in either case, were assuming an approximate model which makes a mathematical analysis possible. whether we assume 0D or finite D, the answer will not change
$endgroup$
– Wai-Ga D Ho
May 8 at 15:28
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Well a point particle is just an idealization that has spherical symmetry, and we can imagine that in reality we have some finite volume associated with the "point", in which the total charge is distributed. The argument, at least in electromagnetism, is that the spherical symmetry of the charge together with its own spherically symmetric field will lead to a cancellation when computing the total force of the field on the charge distribution.
So we relax the idealization of a point particle and think of it as a little ball with radius $a$ and some uniform charge distribution: $rho= rho_{o}$ for $r<{a}$, and $rho=0$ otherwise.
We first consider the $r<a$ region and draw a nice little Gaussian sphere of radius $r$ inside of the ball. We have: $$int_{} vec{E}cdot{dvec{A}} =dfrac{Q_{enc}}{epsilon_{0}}$$ $$4pi r^{2}E(r) = frac{1}{epsilon_{0}}frac{4}{3}pi r^{3}rho_{0}
qquad , qquad r<a$$
Now we say that the total charge in this ball is $q=frac{4}{3}pi r^{3}rho_{0}$, then we can take the previous line and do $$4pi r^{2}E(r) = frac{1}{epsilon_{0}}frac{4}{3}pi a^{3}*frac{r^{3}}{a^3}rho_{0}=frac{q}{epsilon_0}frac{r^{3}}{a^{3}}rho_0$$
or
$$vec{E}(r)=frac{q}{4piepsilon_{0}}frac{r}{a^{3}}hat{r} qquad,qquad r<a$$
Outside the ball, we have the usual:
$$vec{E}(r)=frac{q}{4piepsilon_{0}}frac{1}{r^{2}}hat{r} qquad,qquad r>a$$
So we see that even if the ball has a finite volume, it still looks like a point generating a spherically symmetric field if we're looking from the outside. This justifies our treatment of a point charge as a spherical distribution of charge instead (the point limit is just when $a$ goes to $0$).
Now we've established that the field that this finite-sized ball generates is also spherically symmetric, with the origin taken to be the origin of the ball. Since we now have a spherically symmetric charge distribution, centered at the origin of a spherically symmetric field, then the force that charge distribution feels from its own field is now
$$vec{F}=int vec{E} , dq =int_{sphere}vec{E} rho dV = int_{sphere} E(r)hat{r}rho dV$$
which will cancel due to spherical symmetry. I think this argument works in most cases where we have a spherically symmetric interaction (Coulomb, gravitational, etc).
$endgroup$
Well a point particle is just an idealization that has spherical symmetry, and we can imagine that in reality we have some finite volume associated with the "point", in which the total charge is distributed. The argument, at least in electromagnetism, is that the spherical symmetry of the charge together with its own spherically symmetric field will lead to a cancellation when computing the total force of the field on the charge distribution.
So we relax the idealization of a point particle and think of it as a little ball with radius $a$ and some uniform charge distribution: $rho= rho_{o}$ for $r<{a}$, and $rho=0$ otherwise.
We first consider the $r<a$ region and draw a nice little Gaussian sphere of radius $r$ inside of the ball. We have: $$int_{} vec{E}cdot{dvec{A}} =dfrac{Q_{enc}}{epsilon_{0}}$$ $$4pi r^{2}E(r) = frac{1}{epsilon_{0}}frac{4}{3}pi r^{3}rho_{0}
qquad , qquad r<a$$
Now we say that the total charge in this ball is $q=frac{4}{3}pi r^{3}rho_{0}$, then we can take the previous line and do $$4pi r^{2}E(r) = frac{1}{epsilon_{0}}frac{4}{3}pi a^{3}*frac{r^{3}}{a^3}rho_{0}=frac{q}{epsilon_0}frac{r^{3}}{a^{3}}rho_0$$
or
$$vec{E}(r)=frac{q}{4piepsilon_{0}}frac{r}{a^{3}}hat{r} qquad,qquad r<a$$
Outside the ball, we have the usual:
$$vec{E}(r)=frac{q}{4piepsilon_{0}}frac{1}{r^{2}}hat{r} qquad,qquad r>a$$
So we see that even if the ball has a finite volume, it still looks like a point generating a spherically symmetric field if we're looking from the outside. This justifies our treatment of a point charge as a spherical distribution of charge instead (the point limit is just when $a$ goes to $0$).
Now we've established that the field that this finite-sized ball generates is also spherically symmetric, with the origin taken to be the origin of the ball. Since we now have a spherically symmetric charge distribution, centered at the origin of a spherically symmetric field, then the force that charge distribution feels from its own field is now
$$vec{F}=int vec{E} , dq =int_{sphere}vec{E} rho dV = int_{sphere} E(r)hat{r}rho dV$$
which will cancel due to spherical symmetry. I think this argument works in most cases where we have a spherically symmetric interaction (Coulomb, gravitational, etc).
edited May 5 at 19:05
Cham
1,63021232
1,63021232
answered May 5 at 16:53
Wai-Ga D HoWai-Ga D Ho
513
513
$begingroup$
"A point particle is just an idealization that has spherical symmetry" and the fact that it has spherical symmetry both seem to make a spherical cow assumption.
$endgroup$
– Denis de Bernardy
May 5 at 19:03
4
$begingroup$
If the sphere is in uniform motion (no acceleration), then there's a cylindrical symetry around the velocity vector. Since the electromagnetic field distribution is dipolar in this case, there's still no force exerted on the sphere by itself. But if the sphere is accelerated, there are an instantaneous velocity and acceleration vectors. These vectors destroy the spherical or cylindrical symetry, which implies that there may be an electromagnetic force. This is the origin of the radiation reaction self-force on the particle.
$endgroup$
– Cham
May 5 at 19:56
$begingroup$
"we can imagine that in reality we have some finite volume associated with the "point" - we have no reason to do so, though...
$endgroup$
– AnoE
May 8 at 11:12
$begingroup$
@AnoE the equations above demonstrate that they are equivalent as far as the electric fields they generate, which is really the only physical quantity that we have to work with that can describe the system. this tells us that these models are equivalent from an electrostatic standpoint. now, we have no reason to assume that the fundamental charges are really 0 dimensional, right? in either case, were assuming an approximate model which makes a mathematical analysis possible. whether we assume 0D or finite D, the answer will not change
$endgroup$
– Wai-Ga D Ho
May 8 at 15:28
add a comment |
$begingroup$
"A point particle is just an idealization that has spherical symmetry" and the fact that it has spherical symmetry both seem to make a spherical cow assumption.
$endgroup$
– Denis de Bernardy
May 5 at 19:03
4
$begingroup$
If the sphere is in uniform motion (no acceleration), then there's a cylindrical symetry around the velocity vector. Since the electromagnetic field distribution is dipolar in this case, there's still no force exerted on the sphere by itself. But if the sphere is accelerated, there are an instantaneous velocity and acceleration vectors. These vectors destroy the spherical or cylindrical symetry, which implies that there may be an electromagnetic force. This is the origin of the radiation reaction self-force on the particle.
$endgroup$
– Cham
May 5 at 19:56
$begingroup$
"we can imagine that in reality we have some finite volume associated with the "point" - we have no reason to do so, though...
$endgroup$
– AnoE
May 8 at 11:12
$begingroup$
@AnoE the equations above demonstrate that they are equivalent as far as the electric fields they generate, which is really the only physical quantity that we have to work with that can describe the system. this tells us that these models are equivalent from an electrostatic standpoint. now, we have no reason to assume that the fundamental charges are really 0 dimensional, right? in either case, were assuming an approximate model which makes a mathematical analysis possible. whether we assume 0D or finite D, the answer will not change
$endgroup$
– Wai-Ga D Ho
May 8 at 15:28
$begingroup$
"A point particle is just an idealization that has spherical symmetry" and the fact that it has spherical symmetry both seem to make a spherical cow assumption.
$endgroup$
– Denis de Bernardy
May 5 at 19:03
$begingroup$
"A point particle is just an idealization that has spherical symmetry" and the fact that it has spherical symmetry both seem to make a spherical cow assumption.
$endgroup$
– Denis de Bernardy
May 5 at 19:03
4
4
$begingroup$
If the sphere is in uniform motion (no acceleration), then there's a cylindrical symetry around the velocity vector. Since the electromagnetic field distribution is dipolar in this case, there's still no force exerted on the sphere by itself. But if the sphere is accelerated, there are an instantaneous velocity and acceleration vectors. These vectors destroy the spherical or cylindrical symetry, which implies that there may be an electromagnetic force. This is the origin of the radiation reaction self-force on the particle.
$endgroup$
– Cham
May 5 at 19:56
$begingroup$
If the sphere is in uniform motion (no acceleration), then there's a cylindrical symetry around the velocity vector. Since the electromagnetic field distribution is dipolar in this case, there's still no force exerted on the sphere by itself. But if the sphere is accelerated, there are an instantaneous velocity and acceleration vectors. These vectors destroy the spherical or cylindrical symetry, which implies that there may be an electromagnetic force. This is the origin of the radiation reaction self-force on the particle.
$endgroup$
– Cham
May 5 at 19:56
$begingroup$
"we can imagine that in reality we have some finite volume associated with the "point" - we have no reason to do so, though...
$endgroup$
– AnoE
May 8 at 11:12
$begingroup$
"we can imagine that in reality we have some finite volume associated with the "point" - we have no reason to do so, though...
$endgroup$
– AnoE
May 8 at 11:12
$begingroup$
@AnoE the equations above demonstrate that they are equivalent as far as the electric fields they generate, which is really the only physical quantity that we have to work with that can describe the system. this tells us that these models are equivalent from an electrostatic standpoint. now, we have no reason to assume that the fundamental charges are really 0 dimensional, right? in either case, were assuming an approximate model which makes a mathematical analysis possible. whether we assume 0D or finite D, the answer will not change
$endgroup$
– Wai-Ga D Ho
May 8 at 15:28
$begingroup$
@AnoE the equations above demonstrate that they are equivalent as far as the electric fields they generate, which is really the only physical quantity that we have to work with that can describe the system. this tells us that these models are equivalent from an electrostatic standpoint. now, we have no reason to assume that the fundamental charges are really 0 dimensional, right? in either case, were assuming an approximate model which makes a mathematical analysis possible. whether we assume 0D or finite D, the answer will not change
$endgroup$
– Wai-Ga D Ho
May 8 at 15:28
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What even is a particle in classical mechanics?
Particles do exist in the real world, but their discovery pretty much made the invention of quantum mechanics necessary.
So to answer this question, you have to set up some straw man of a "classical mechanics particle" and then destroy that. For instance, we may pretend that atoms have the exact same properties as the bulk material, they're just for inexplicable reasons indivisible.
At this point, we cannot say any more whether particles do or do not exert forces on themselves. The particle might exert a gravitational force on itself, compressing it every so slightly. We could not detect this force, because it would always be there and it would linearly add up with other forces. Instead, this force would show up as part of the physical properties of the material, in particular its density. And in classical mechanics, those properties are mostly treated as constants of nature.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Hello Sir, I thought a particle to be just a tiny point mass!
$endgroup$
– Unique
May 7 at 9:46
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What even is a particle in classical mechanics?
Particles do exist in the real world, but their discovery pretty much made the invention of quantum mechanics necessary.
So to answer this question, you have to set up some straw man of a "classical mechanics particle" and then destroy that. For instance, we may pretend that atoms have the exact same properties as the bulk material, they're just for inexplicable reasons indivisible.
At this point, we cannot say any more whether particles do or do not exert forces on themselves. The particle might exert a gravitational force on itself, compressing it every so slightly. We could not detect this force, because it would always be there and it would linearly add up with other forces. Instead, this force would show up as part of the physical properties of the material, in particular its density. And in classical mechanics, those properties are mostly treated as constants of nature.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Hello Sir, I thought a particle to be just a tiny point mass!
$endgroup$
– Unique
May 7 at 9:46
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What even is a particle in classical mechanics?
Particles do exist in the real world, but their discovery pretty much made the invention of quantum mechanics necessary.
So to answer this question, you have to set up some straw man of a "classical mechanics particle" and then destroy that. For instance, we may pretend that atoms have the exact same properties as the bulk material, they're just for inexplicable reasons indivisible.
At this point, we cannot say any more whether particles do or do not exert forces on themselves. The particle might exert a gravitational force on itself, compressing it every so slightly. We could not detect this force, because it would always be there and it would linearly add up with other forces. Instead, this force would show up as part of the physical properties of the material, in particular its density. And in classical mechanics, those properties are mostly treated as constants of nature.
$endgroup$
What even is a particle in classical mechanics?
Particles do exist in the real world, but their discovery pretty much made the invention of quantum mechanics necessary.
So to answer this question, you have to set up some straw man of a "classical mechanics particle" and then destroy that. For instance, we may pretend that atoms have the exact same properties as the bulk material, they're just for inexplicable reasons indivisible.
At this point, we cannot say any more whether particles do or do not exert forces on themselves. The particle might exert a gravitational force on itself, compressing it every so slightly. We could not detect this force, because it would always be there and it would linearly add up with other forces. Instead, this force would show up as part of the physical properties of the material, in particular its density. And in classical mechanics, those properties are mostly treated as constants of nature.
answered May 6 at 12:22
MSaltersMSalters
4,6491224
4,6491224
1
$begingroup$
Hello Sir, I thought a particle to be just a tiny point mass!
$endgroup$
– Unique
May 7 at 9:46
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Hello Sir, I thought a particle to be just a tiny point mass!
$endgroup$
– Unique
May 7 at 9:46
1
1
$begingroup$
Hello Sir, I thought a particle to be just a tiny point mass!
$endgroup$
– Unique
May 7 at 9:46
$begingroup$
Hello Sir, I thought a particle to be just a tiny point mass!
$endgroup$
– Unique
May 7 at 9:46
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This exact question is considered at the end of Jackson's (somewhat infamous) Classical Electrodynamics. I think it would be appropriate to simply quote the relevant passage:
In the preceding chapters the problems of electrodynamics have been
divided into two classes: one in which the sources of charge and
current are specified and the resulting electromagnetic fields are
calculated, and the other in which the external electromagnetic fields
are specified and the motions of charged particles or currents are
calculated...
It is evident that this manner of handling problems in
electrodynamics can be of only approximate validity. The motion of
charged particles in external force fields necessarily involves the
emission of radiation whenever the charges are accelerated. The
emitted radiation carries off energy, momentum, and angular momentum
and so must influence the subsequent motion of the charged particles.
Consequently the motion of the sources of radiation is determined, in
part, by the manner of emission of the radiation. A correct treatment
must include the reaction of the radiation on the motion of the
sources.
Why is it that we have taken so long in our discussion of
electrodynamics to face this fact? Why is it that many answers
calculated in an apparently erroneous way agree so well with
experiment? A partial answer to the first question lies in the second.
There are very many problems in electrodynamics that can be put with
negligible error into one of the two categories described in the first
paragraph. Hence it is worthwhile discussing them without the
added and unnecessary complication of including reaction effects. The
remaining answer to the first question is that a completely
satisfactory classical treatment of the reactive effects of radiation
does not exist. The difficulties presented by this problem touch one
of the most fundamental aspects of physics, the nature of an
elementary particle. Although partial solutions, workable within
limited areas, can be given, the basic problem remains unsolved.
There are ways to try to handle these self-interactions in the classical context which he discusses in this chapter, i.e. the Abraham-Lorentz force, but it is not fully satisfactory.
However, a naive answer to the question is that really particles are excitations of fields, classical mechanics is simply a certain limit of quantum field theory, and therefore these self-interactions should be considered within that context. This is also not entirely satisfactory, as in quantum field theory it is assumed that the fields interact with themselves, and this interaction is treated only perturbatively. Ultimately there is no universally-accepted, non-perturbative description of what these interactions really are, though string theorists might disagree with me there.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This exact question is considered at the end of Jackson's (somewhat infamous) Classical Electrodynamics. I think it would be appropriate to simply quote the relevant passage:
In the preceding chapters the problems of electrodynamics have been
divided into two classes: one in which the sources of charge and
current are specified and the resulting electromagnetic fields are
calculated, and the other in which the external electromagnetic fields
are specified and the motions of charged particles or currents are
calculated...
It is evident that this manner of handling problems in
electrodynamics can be of only approximate validity. The motion of
charged particles in external force fields necessarily involves the
emission of radiation whenever the charges are accelerated. The
emitted radiation carries off energy, momentum, and angular momentum
and so must influence the subsequent motion of the charged particles.
Consequently the motion of the sources of radiation is determined, in
part, by the manner of emission of the radiation. A correct treatment
must include the reaction of the radiation on the motion of the
sources.
Why is it that we have taken so long in our discussion of
electrodynamics to face this fact? Why is it that many answers
calculated in an apparently erroneous way agree so well with
experiment? A partial answer to the first question lies in the second.
There are very many problems in electrodynamics that can be put with
negligible error into one of the two categories described in the first
paragraph. Hence it is worthwhile discussing them without the
added and unnecessary complication of including reaction effects. The
remaining answer to the first question is that a completely
satisfactory classical treatment of the reactive effects of radiation
does not exist. The difficulties presented by this problem touch one
of the most fundamental aspects of physics, the nature of an
elementary particle. Although partial solutions, workable within
limited areas, can be given, the basic problem remains unsolved.
There are ways to try to handle these self-interactions in the classical context which he discusses in this chapter, i.e. the Abraham-Lorentz force, but it is not fully satisfactory.
However, a naive answer to the question is that really particles are excitations of fields, classical mechanics is simply a certain limit of quantum field theory, and therefore these self-interactions should be considered within that context. This is also not entirely satisfactory, as in quantum field theory it is assumed that the fields interact with themselves, and this interaction is treated only perturbatively. Ultimately there is no universally-accepted, non-perturbative description of what these interactions really are, though string theorists might disagree with me there.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This exact question is considered at the end of Jackson's (somewhat infamous) Classical Electrodynamics. I think it would be appropriate to simply quote the relevant passage:
In the preceding chapters the problems of electrodynamics have been
divided into two classes: one in which the sources of charge and
current are specified and the resulting electromagnetic fields are
calculated, and the other in which the external electromagnetic fields
are specified and the motions of charged particles or currents are
calculated...
It is evident that this manner of handling problems in
electrodynamics can be of only approximate validity. The motion of
charged particles in external force fields necessarily involves the
emission of radiation whenever the charges are accelerated. The
emitted radiation carries off energy, momentum, and angular momentum
and so must influence the subsequent motion of the charged particles.
Consequently the motion of the sources of radiation is determined, in
part, by the manner of emission of the radiation. A correct treatment
must include the reaction of the radiation on the motion of the
sources.
Why is it that we have taken so long in our discussion of
electrodynamics to face this fact? Why is it that many answers
calculated in an apparently erroneous way agree so well with
experiment? A partial answer to the first question lies in the second.
There are very many problems in electrodynamics that can be put with
negligible error into one of the two categories described in the first
paragraph. Hence it is worthwhile discussing them without the
added and unnecessary complication of including reaction effects. The
remaining answer to the first question is that a completely
satisfactory classical treatment of the reactive effects of radiation
does not exist. The difficulties presented by this problem touch one
of the most fundamental aspects of physics, the nature of an
elementary particle. Although partial solutions, workable within
limited areas, can be given, the basic problem remains unsolved.
There are ways to try to handle these self-interactions in the classical context which he discusses in this chapter, i.e. the Abraham-Lorentz force, but it is not fully satisfactory.
However, a naive answer to the question is that really particles are excitations of fields, classical mechanics is simply a certain limit of quantum field theory, and therefore these self-interactions should be considered within that context. This is also not entirely satisfactory, as in quantum field theory it is assumed that the fields interact with themselves, and this interaction is treated only perturbatively. Ultimately there is no universally-accepted, non-perturbative description of what these interactions really are, though string theorists might disagree with me there.
$endgroup$
This exact question is considered at the end of Jackson's (somewhat infamous) Classical Electrodynamics. I think it would be appropriate to simply quote the relevant passage:
In the preceding chapters the problems of electrodynamics have been
divided into two classes: one in which the sources of charge and
current are specified and the resulting electromagnetic fields are
calculated, and the other in which the external electromagnetic fields
are specified and the motions of charged particles or currents are
calculated...
It is evident that this manner of handling problems in
electrodynamics can be of only approximate validity. The motion of
charged particles in external force fields necessarily involves the
emission of radiation whenever the charges are accelerated. The
emitted radiation carries off energy, momentum, and angular momentum
and so must influence the subsequent motion of the charged particles.
Consequently the motion of the sources of radiation is determined, in
part, by the manner of emission of the radiation. A correct treatment
must include the reaction of the radiation on the motion of the
sources.
Why is it that we have taken so long in our discussion of
electrodynamics to face this fact? Why is it that many answers
calculated in an apparently erroneous way agree so well with
experiment? A partial answer to the first question lies in the second.
There are very many problems in electrodynamics that can be put with
negligible error into one of the two categories described in the first
paragraph. Hence it is worthwhile discussing them without the
added and unnecessary complication of including reaction effects. The
remaining answer to the first question is that a completely
satisfactory classical treatment of the reactive effects of radiation
does not exist. The difficulties presented by this problem touch one
of the most fundamental aspects of physics, the nature of an
elementary particle. Although partial solutions, workable within
limited areas, can be given, the basic problem remains unsolved.
There are ways to try to handle these self-interactions in the classical context which he discusses in this chapter, i.e. the Abraham-Lorentz force, but it is not fully satisfactory.
However, a naive answer to the question is that really particles are excitations of fields, classical mechanics is simply a certain limit of quantum field theory, and therefore these self-interactions should be considered within that context. This is also not entirely satisfactory, as in quantum field theory it is assumed that the fields interact with themselves, and this interaction is treated only perturbatively. Ultimately there is no universally-accepted, non-perturbative description of what these interactions really are, though string theorists might disagree with me there.
edited May 6 at 14:46
answered May 5 at 21:04
KaiKai
1,073316
1,073316
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This answer may a bit technical but the clearest argument that there is always self interaction, that is, a force of a particle on itself comes from lagrangian formalism. If we calculate the EM potential of a charge then the source of the potential, the charge, is given by $q=dL/dV$. This means that $L$ must contain a self interaction term $qV$, which leads to a self force. This is true in classical and in quantum electrodynamics. If this term were absent the charge would have no field at all!
In classical ED the self force is ignored, because attempts to describe have so far been problematic. In QED it gives rise to infinities. Renormalisation techniques in QED are successfully used to tame the infinities and extract physically meaningful, even very accurate effects so called radiation effects originating from the self interaction.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
A point particle charge $q$ does not have to obey equation such as $q = partial L/partial V$, because what is $V$ at the point of point particle? External potential? Then there is no connection between $q,V$. Total potential? Then there is connection, but $V$ is infinite at the very point you would like to apply that equation and the Lagrangian cannot depend on $V$ at that point.
$endgroup$
– Ján Lalinský
May 6 at 19:14
$begingroup$
@JanLalinsky Isn't that exactly the point of this question? Also, I repeat, without self interaction term the point charge has no field so it does obey such an equation.
$endgroup$
– my2cts
May 6 at 20:23
$begingroup$
My point is that your argument is wrong, in fact the Lagrangian does not have to contain a self-interaction term in order a charged particle to produce a field. There is a family of consistent non-quantum-theoretical theories that demonstrate this - action at a distance electrodynamics, by Tetrode, Fokker, Frenkel, Feynman and Wheeler etc.
$endgroup$
– Ján Lalinský
May 6 at 21:45
$begingroup$
@JanLalinsky Standard lagrangians contain self interaction or else charges would it produce fields. Calling my post "wrong" overstates your position. Although interesting, these theories are not mainstream physics. What is their status anyway? See en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler%E2%80%93Feynman_absorber_theory
$endgroup$
– my2cts
May 6 at 21:58
$begingroup$
Those theories are deficient in that they do not capture some phenomena involving charges such as pair creation/destruction. But they are an example that there is no necessity to self-interaction to have a consistent theory of interacting particles that is also consistent with macroscopic EM theory.
$endgroup$
– Ján Lalinský
May 7 at 10:50
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
This answer may a bit technical but the clearest argument that there is always self interaction, that is, a force of a particle on itself comes from lagrangian formalism. If we calculate the EM potential of a charge then the source of the potential, the charge, is given by $q=dL/dV$. This means that $L$ must contain a self interaction term $qV$, which leads to a self force. This is true in classical and in quantum electrodynamics. If this term were absent the charge would have no field at all!
In classical ED the self force is ignored, because attempts to describe have so far been problematic. In QED it gives rise to infinities. Renormalisation techniques in QED are successfully used to tame the infinities and extract physically meaningful, even very accurate effects so called radiation effects originating from the self interaction.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
A point particle charge $q$ does not have to obey equation such as $q = partial L/partial V$, because what is $V$ at the point of point particle? External potential? Then there is no connection between $q,V$. Total potential? Then there is connection, but $V$ is infinite at the very point you would like to apply that equation and the Lagrangian cannot depend on $V$ at that point.
$endgroup$
– Ján Lalinský
May 6 at 19:14
$begingroup$
@JanLalinsky Isn't that exactly the point of this question? Also, I repeat, without self interaction term the point charge has no field so it does obey such an equation.
$endgroup$
– my2cts
May 6 at 20:23
$begingroup$
My point is that your argument is wrong, in fact the Lagrangian does not have to contain a self-interaction term in order a charged particle to produce a field. There is a family of consistent non-quantum-theoretical theories that demonstrate this - action at a distance electrodynamics, by Tetrode, Fokker, Frenkel, Feynman and Wheeler etc.
$endgroup$
– Ján Lalinský
May 6 at 21:45
$begingroup$
@JanLalinsky Standard lagrangians contain self interaction or else charges would it produce fields. Calling my post "wrong" overstates your position. Although interesting, these theories are not mainstream physics. What is their status anyway? See en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler%E2%80%93Feynman_absorber_theory
$endgroup$
– my2cts
May 6 at 21:58
$begingroup$
Those theories are deficient in that they do not capture some phenomena involving charges such as pair creation/destruction. But they are an example that there is no necessity to self-interaction to have a consistent theory of interacting particles that is also consistent with macroscopic EM theory.
$endgroup$
– Ján Lalinský
May 7 at 10:50
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
This answer may a bit technical but the clearest argument that there is always self interaction, that is, a force of a particle on itself comes from lagrangian formalism. If we calculate the EM potential of a charge then the source of the potential, the charge, is given by $q=dL/dV$. This means that $L$ must contain a self interaction term $qV$, which leads to a self force. This is true in classical and in quantum electrodynamics. If this term were absent the charge would have no field at all!
In classical ED the self force is ignored, because attempts to describe have so far been problematic. In QED it gives rise to infinities. Renormalisation techniques in QED are successfully used to tame the infinities and extract physically meaningful, even very accurate effects so called radiation effects originating from the self interaction.
$endgroup$
This answer may a bit technical but the clearest argument that there is always self interaction, that is, a force of a particle on itself comes from lagrangian formalism. If we calculate the EM potential of a charge then the source of the potential, the charge, is given by $q=dL/dV$. This means that $L$ must contain a self interaction term $qV$, which leads to a self force. This is true in classical and in quantum electrodynamics. If this term were absent the charge would have no field at all!
In classical ED the self force is ignored, because attempts to describe have so far been problematic. In QED it gives rise to infinities. Renormalisation techniques in QED are successfully used to tame the infinities and extract physically meaningful, even very accurate effects so called radiation effects originating from the self interaction.
answered May 6 at 16:05
my2ctsmy2cts
6,6772722
6,6772722
$begingroup$
A point particle charge $q$ does not have to obey equation such as $q = partial L/partial V$, because what is $V$ at the point of point particle? External potential? Then there is no connection between $q,V$. Total potential? Then there is connection, but $V$ is infinite at the very point you would like to apply that equation and the Lagrangian cannot depend on $V$ at that point.
$endgroup$
– Ján Lalinský
May 6 at 19:14
$begingroup$
@JanLalinsky Isn't that exactly the point of this question? Also, I repeat, without self interaction term the point charge has no field so it does obey such an equation.
$endgroup$
– my2cts
May 6 at 20:23
$begingroup$
My point is that your argument is wrong, in fact the Lagrangian does not have to contain a self-interaction term in order a charged particle to produce a field. There is a family of consistent non-quantum-theoretical theories that demonstrate this - action at a distance electrodynamics, by Tetrode, Fokker, Frenkel, Feynman and Wheeler etc.
$endgroup$
– Ján Lalinský
May 6 at 21:45
$begingroup$
@JanLalinsky Standard lagrangians contain self interaction or else charges would it produce fields. Calling my post "wrong" overstates your position. Although interesting, these theories are not mainstream physics. What is their status anyway? See en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler%E2%80%93Feynman_absorber_theory
$endgroup$
– my2cts
May 6 at 21:58
$begingroup$
Those theories are deficient in that they do not capture some phenomena involving charges such as pair creation/destruction. But they are an example that there is no necessity to self-interaction to have a consistent theory of interacting particles that is also consistent with macroscopic EM theory.
$endgroup$
– Ján Lalinský
May 7 at 10:50
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
A point particle charge $q$ does not have to obey equation such as $q = partial L/partial V$, because what is $V$ at the point of point particle? External potential? Then there is no connection between $q,V$. Total potential? Then there is connection, but $V$ is infinite at the very point you would like to apply that equation and the Lagrangian cannot depend on $V$ at that point.
$endgroup$
– Ján Lalinský
May 6 at 19:14
$begingroup$
@JanLalinsky Isn't that exactly the point of this question? Also, I repeat, without self interaction term the point charge has no field so it does obey such an equation.
$endgroup$
– my2cts
May 6 at 20:23
$begingroup$
My point is that your argument is wrong, in fact the Lagrangian does not have to contain a self-interaction term in order a charged particle to produce a field. There is a family of consistent non-quantum-theoretical theories that demonstrate this - action at a distance electrodynamics, by Tetrode, Fokker, Frenkel, Feynman and Wheeler etc.
$endgroup$
– Ján Lalinský
May 6 at 21:45
$begingroup$
@JanLalinsky Standard lagrangians contain self interaction or else charges would it produce fields. Calling my post "wrong" overstates your position. Although interesting, these theories are not mainstream physics. What is their status anyway? See en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler%E2%80%93Feynman_absorber_theory
$endgroup$
– my2cts
May 6 at 21:58
$begingroup$
Those theories are deficient in that they do not capture some phenomena involving charges such as pair creation/destruction. But they are an example that there is no necessity to self-interaction to have a consistent theory of interacting particles that is also consistent with macroscopic EM theory.
$endgroup$
– Ján Lalinský
May 7 at 10:50
$begingroup$
A point particle charge $q$ does not have to obey equation such as $q = partial L/partial V$, because what is $V$ at the point of point particle? External potential? Then there is no connection between $q,V$. Total potential? Then there is connection, but $V$ is infinite at the very point you would like to apply that equation and the Lagrangian cannot depend on $V$ at that point.
$endgroup$
– Ján Lalinský
May 6 at 19:14
$begingroup$
A point particle charge $q$ does not have to obey equation such as $q = partial L/partial V$, because what is $V$ at the point of point particle? External potential? Then there is no connection between $q,V$. Total potential? Then there is connection, but $V$ is infinite at the very point you would like to apply that equation and the Lagrangian cannot depend on $V$ at that point.
$endgroup$
– Ján Lalinský
May 6 at 19:14
$begingroup$
@JanLalinsky Isn't that exactly the point of this question? Also, I repeat, without self interaction term the point charge has no field so it does obey such an equation.
$endgroup$
– my2cts
May 6 at 20:23
$begingroup$
@JanLalinsky Isn't that exactly the point of this question? Also, I repeat, without self interaction term the point charge has no field so it does obey such an equation.
$endgroup$
– my2cts
May 6 at 20:23
$begingroup$
My point is that your argument is wrong, in fact the Lagrangian does not have to contain a self-interaction term in order a charged particle to produce a field. There is a family of consistent non-quantum-theoretical theories that demonstrate this - action at a distance electrodynamics, by Tetrode, Fokker, Frenkel, Feynman and Wheeler etc.
$endgroup$
– Ján Lalinský
May 6 at 21:45
$begingroup$
My point is that your argument is wrong, in fact the Lagrangian does not have to contain a self-interaction term in order a charged particle to produce a field. There is a family of consistent non-quantum-theoretical theories that demonstrate this - action at a distance electrodynamics, by Tetrode, Fokker, Frenkel, Feynman and Wheeler etc.
$endgroup$
– Ján Lalinský
May 6 at 21:45
$begingroup$
@JanLalinsky Standard lagrangians contain self interaction or else charges would it produce fields. Calling my post "wrong" overstates your position. Although interesting, these theories are not mainstream physics. What is their status anyway? See en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler%E2%80%93Feynman_absorber_theory
$endgroup$
– my2cts
May 6 at 21:58
$begingroup$
@JanLalinsky Standard lagrangians contain self interaction or else charges would it produce fields. Calling my post "wrong" overstates your position. Although interesting, these theories are not mainstream physics. What is their status anyway? See en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler%E2%80%93Feynman_absorber_theory
$endgroup$
– my2cts
May 6 at 21:58
$begingroup$
Those theories are deficient in that they do not capture some phenomena involving charges such as pair creation/destruction. But they are an example that there is no necessity to self-interaction to have a consistent theory of interacting particles that is also consistent with macroscopic EM theory.
$endgroup$
– Ján Lalinský
May 7 at 10:50
$begingroup$
Those theories are deficient in that they do not capture some phenomena involving charges such as pair creation/destruction. But they are an example that there is no necessity to self-interaction to have a consistent theory of interacting particles that is also consistent with macroscopic EM theory.
$endgroup$
– Ján Lalinský
May 7 at 10:50
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
The difficulties presented by this problem touch one of the most fundamental aspects of physics, the nature of the elementary particle. Although partial solutions, workable within limited areas, can be given, the basic problem remains unsolved. One might hope that the transition from classical to quantum-mechanical treatments would remove the difficulties. While there is still hope that this may eventually occur, the present quantum-mechanical discussions are beset with even more elaborate troubles than the classical ones. It is one of the triumphs of comparatively recent years (~ 1948–1950) that the concepts of Lorentz covariance and gauge invariance were exploited sufficiently cleverly to circumvent these difficulties in quantum electrodynamics and so allow the calculation of very small radiative effects to extremely high precision, in full agreement with experiment. From a fundamental point of view, however, the difficulties remain.
John David Jackson, Classical Electrodynamics.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The difficulties presented by this problem touch one of the most fundamental aspects of physics, the nature of the elementary particle. Although partial solutions, workable within limited areas, can be given, the basic problem remains unsolved. One might hope that the transition from classical to quantum-mechanical treatments would remove the difficulties. While there is still hope that this may eventually occur, the present quantum-mechanical discussions are beset with even more elaborate troubles than the classical ones. It is one of the triumphs of comparatively recent years (~ 1948–1950) that the concepts of Lorentz covariance and gauge invariance were exploited sufficiently cleverly to circumvent these difficulties in quantum electrodynamics and so allow the calculation of very small radiative effects to extremely high precision, in full agreement with experiment. From a fundamental point of view, however, the difficulties remain.
John David Jackson, Classical Electrodynamics.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The difficulties presented by this problem touch one of the most fundamental aspects of physics, the nature of the elementary particle. Although partial solutions, workable within limited areas, can be given, the basic problem remains unsolved. One might hope that the transition from classical to quantum-mechanical treatments would remove the difficulties. While there is still hope that this may eventually occur, the present quantum-mechanical discussions are beset with even more elaborate troubles than the classical ones. It is one of the triumphs of comparatively recent years (~ 1948–1950) that the concepts of Lorentz covariance and gauge invariance were exploited sufficiently cleverly to circumvent these difficulties in quantum electrodynamics and so allow the calculation of very small radiative effects to extremely high precision, in full agreement with experiment. From a fundamental point of view, however, the difficulties remain.
John David Jackson, Classical Electrodynamics.
$endgroup$
The difficulties presented by this problem touch one of the most fundamental aspects of physics, the nature of the elementary particle. Although partial solutions, workable within limited areas, can be given, the basic problem remains unsolved. One might hope that the transition from classical to quantum-mechanical treatments would remove the difficulties. While there is still hope that this may eventually occur, the present quantum-mechanical discussions are beset with even more elaborate troubles than the classical ones. It is one of the triumphs of comparatively recent years (~ 1948–1950) that the concepts of Lorentz covariance and gauge invariance were exploited sufficiently cleverly to circumvent these difficulties in quantum electrodynamics and so allow the calculation of very small radiative effects to extremely high precision, in full agreement with experiment. From a fundamental point of view, however, the difficulties remain.
John David Jackson, Classical Electrodynamics.
answered May 13 at 10:45
user212860user212860
6616
6616
add a comment |
add a comment |
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13
$begingroup$
Abraham–Lorentz force.
$endgroup$
– Keith McClary
May 6 at 4:42
7
$begingroup$
What's a particle? ;)
$endgroup$
– Guido
May 6 at 13:41
14
$begingroup$
Actually, if it weren't for the intense gravitational force pulling inward, an electron would be several feet in diameter. (This is, of course, pure bullsith, but can you prove that, with any practical demonstration? In fact, any forces that particles may exert on themselves are irrelevant, so long as they don't cause the particles to explode.)
$endgroup$
– Hot Licks
May 6 at 17:03
7
$begingroup$
By Newton, any force a particle exerts on itself will be cancelled out by an equal and opposite force it also exerts on itself.
$endgroup$
– OrangeDog
May 7 at 10:25
1
$begingroup$
This is inertia!
$endgroup$
– Fattie
May 8 at 10:25