How can a function with a hole (removable discontinuity) equal a function with no hole?
$begingroup$
I've done some research, and I'm hoping someone can check me. My question was this:
Assume I have the function $f(x) = frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)}$, so it has removable discontinuity at $x = 3$. We remove that discontinuity with algebra: $f(x) = frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)} = (x+2)$. BUT, the graph of the first function has a hole at $x = 3$, and the graph of the second function is continuous everywhere. How can they be "equal" if one has a hole and the other does not?
I think that this is the answer:
Because the original function is undefined at the point $x = 3$, we have to restrict the domain to $mathbb{R} setminus 3$. And when we manipulate that function with algebra, the final result, $f(x) = (x + 2)$ is still using this restricted domain. So even though the function $f(x) = (x+2)$ would not have a hole if the domain were all of $mathbb{R}$, we are sort of "imposing" a hole at $x = 3$ by continuing to throw that point out of the domain.
And then just to close the loop: Removing the removable discontinuity is useful because it allows us to "pretend" that we're working with a function that is everywhere continuous, which helps us easily find the limit. But the reality is that the function $f(x) = (x +2)$ is actually NOT continuous everywhere when we restrict the domain by throwing out the point 3. Or am I now taking things too far?
Thanks in advance!
EDIT: For anyone coming across this in the future, in addition to the excellent answers below, I also found this other question about the continuity of functions with removable discontinuities helpful.
calculus limits discontinuous-functions faq
edited 21 mins ago
YuiTo Cheng
2,1362837
asked 6 hours ago
1Teaches2Learn1Teaches2Learn
724
$endgroup$
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
I've done some research, and I'm hoping someone can check me. My question was this:
Assume I have the function $f(x) = frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)}$, so it has removable discontinuity at $x = 3$. We remove that discontinuity with algebra: $f(x) = frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)} = (x+2)$. BUT, the graph of the first function has a hole at $x = 3$, and the graph of the second function is continuous everywhere. How can they be "equal" if one has a hole and the other does not?
I think that this is the answer:
Because the original function is undefined at the point $x = 3$, we have to restrict the domain to $mathbb{R} setminus 3$. And when we manipulate that function with algebra, the final result, $f(x) = (x + 2)$ is still using this restricted domain. So even though the function $f(x) = (x+2)$ would not have a hole if the domain were all of $mathbb{R}$, we are sort of "imposing" a hole at $x = 3$ by continuing to throw that point out of the domain.
And then just to close the loop: Removing the removable discontinuity is useful because it allows us to "pretend" that we're working with a function that is everywhere continuous, which helps us easily find the limit. But the reality is that the function $f(x) = (x +2)$ is actually NOT continuous everywhere when we restrict the domain by throwing out the point 3. Or am I now taking things too far?
Thanks in advance!
EDIT: For anyone coming across this in the future, in addition to the excellent answers below, I also found this other question about the continuity of functions with removable discontinuities helpful.
calculus limits discontinuous-functions faq
edited 21 mins ago
YuiTo Cheng
2,1362837
asked 6 hours ago
1Teaches2Learn1Teaches2Learn
724
$endgroup$
4
$begingroup$
You have two functions $g: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$, and $f: mathbb{R} setminus {3} to mathbb{R}$, which are equal on all of $mathbb{R} setminus {3}$. The functions are not equal, since they have different domains. Actually both are continuous, but you have to pay attention to what "continuous" means on $mathbb{R} setminus {3}$. And yes, removing holes will not change how the function behaves, or how integrals involving the function work for example, and make things simpler
$endgroup$
– Joppy
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
$x+2$ is continuous on $mathbb R setminus {3}$.
$endgroup$
– Kavi Rama Murthy
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
I see. So the reason we can set $frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)}$ and $x+2$ equal is because of the restriction to the domain?
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Yes you are right. In fact these two functions are equal on a common domain which is $Bbb R-{3}$ but in $x=3$, $f(x)$ is not defined while $x+2$ is, so they can't be equal
$endgroup$
– Mostafa Ayaz
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Continuity is a local phenomenon. A function is continuous or discontinous w.r.t a point, not the whole domain, though we can speak of continuity in the whole domain.
$endgroup$
– Bertrand Wittgenstein's Ghost
6 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
I've done some research, and I'm hoping someone can check me. My question was this:
Assume I have the function $f(x) = frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)}$, so it has removable discontinuity at $x = 3$. We remove that discontinuity with algebra: $f(x) = frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)} = (x+2)$. BUT, the graph of the first function has a hole at $x = 3$, and the graph of the second function is continuous everywhere. How can they be "equal" if one has a hole and the other does not?
I think that this is the answer:
Because the original function is undefined at the point $x = 3$, we have to restrict the domain to $mathbb{R} setminus 3$. And when we manipulate that function with algebra, the final result, $f(x) = (x + 2)$ is still using this restricted domain. So even though the function $f(x) = (x+2)$ would not have a hole if the domain were all of $mathbb{R}$, we are sort of "imposing" a hole at $x = 3$ by continuing to throw that point out of the domain.
And then just to close the loop: Removing the removable discontinuity is useful because it allows us to "pretend" that we're working with a function that is everywhere continuous, which helps us easily find the limit. But the reality is that the function $f(x) = (x +2)$ is actually NOT continuous everywhere when we restrict the domain by throwing out the point 3. Or am I now taking things too far?
Thanks in advance!
EDIT: For anyone coming across this in the future, in addition to the excellent answers below, I also found this other question about the continuity of functions with removable discontinuities helpful.
calculus limits discontinuous-functions faq
edited 21 mins ago
YuiTo Cheng
2,1362837
asked 6 hours ago
1Teaches2Learn1Teaches2Learn
724
$endgroup$
I've done some research, and I'm hoping someone can check me. My question was this:
Assume I have the function $f(x) = frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)}$, so it has removable discontinuity at $x = 3$. We remove that discontinuity with algebra: $f(x) = frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)} = (x+2)$. BUT, the graph of the first function has a hole at $x = 3$, and the graph of the second function is continuous everywhere. How can they be "equal" if one has a hole and the other does not?
I think that this is the answer:
Because the original function is undefined at the point $x = 3$, we have to restrict the domain to $mathbb{R} setminus 3$. And when we manipulate that function with algebra, the final result, $f(x) = (x + 2)$ is still using this restricted domain. So even though the function $f(x) = (x+2)$ would not have a hole if the domain were all of $mathbb{R}$, we are sort of "imposing" a hole at $x = 3$ by continuing to throw that point out of the domain.
And then just to close the loop: Removing the removable discontinuity is useful because it allows us to "pretend" that we're working with a function that is everywhere continuous, which helps us easily find the limit. But the reality is that the function $f(x) = (x +2)$ is actually NOT continuous everywhere when we restrict the domain by throwing out the point 3. Or am I now taking things too far?
Thanks in advance!
EDIT: For anyone coming across this in the future, in addition to the excellent answers below, I also found this other question about the continuity of functions with removable discontinuities helpful.
calculus limits discontinuous-functions faq
calculus limits discontinuous-functions faq
edited 21 mins ago
YuiTo Cheng
2,1362837
asked 6 hours ago
1Teaches2Learn1Teaches2Learn
724
edited 21 mins ago
YuiTo Cheng
2,1362837
asked 6 hours ago
1Teaches2Learn1Teaches2Learn
724
edited 21 mins ago
YuiTo Cheng
2,1362837
edited 21 mins ago
YuiTo Cheng
2,1362837
edited 21 mins ago
YuiTo Cheng
2,1362837
2,1362837
asked 6 hours ago
1Teaches2Learn1Teaches2Learn
724
asked 6 hours ago
1Teaches2Learn1Teaches2Learn
724
asked 6 hours ago
1Teaches2Learn1Teaches2Learn
724
724
4
$begingroup$
You have two functions $g: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$, and $f: mathbb{R} setminus {3} to mathbb{R}$, which are equal on all of $mathbb{R} setminus {3}$. The functions are not equal, since they have different domains. Actually both are continuous, but you have to pay attention to what "continuous" means on $mathbb{R} setminus {3}$. And yes, removing holes will not change how the function behaves, or how integrals involving the function work for example, and make things simpler
$endgroup$
– Joppy
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
$x+2$ is continuous on $mathbb R setminus {3}$.
$endgroup$
– Kavi Rama Murthy
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
I see. So the reason we can set $frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)}$ and $x+2$ equal is because of the restriction to the domain?
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Yes you are right. In fact these two functions are equal on a common domain which is $Bbb R-{3}$ but in $x=3$, $f(x)$ is not defined while $x+2$ is, so they can't be equal
$endgroup$
– Mostafa Ayaz
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Continuity is a local phenomenon. A function is continuous or discontinous w.r.t a point, not the whole domain, though we can speak of continuity in the whole domain.
$endgroup$
– Bertrand Wittgenstein's Ghost
6 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
4
$begingroup$
You have two functions $g: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$, and $f: mathbb{R} setminus {3} to mathbb{R}$, which are equal on all of $mathbb{R} setminus {3}$. The functions are not equal, since they have different domains. Actually both are continuous, but you have to pay attention to what "continuous" means on $mathbb{R} setminus {3}$. And yes, removing holes will not change how the function behaves, or how integrals involving the function work for example, and make things simpler
$endgroup$
– Joppy
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
$x+2$ is continuous on $mathbb R setminus {3}$.
$endgroup$
– Kavi Rama Murthy
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
I see. So the reason we can set $frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)}$ and $x+2$ equal is because of the restriction to the domain?
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Yes you are right. In fact these two functions are equal on a common domain which is $Bbb R-{3}$ but in $x=3$, $f(x)$ is not defined while $x+2$ is, so they can't be equal
$endgroup$
– Mostafa Ayaz
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Continuity is a local phenomenon. A function is continuous or discontinous w.r.t a point, not the whole domain, though we can speak of continuity in the whole domain.
$endgroup$
– Bertrand Wittgenstein's Ghost
6 hours ago
4
4
$begingroup$
You have two functions $g: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$, and $f: mathbb{R} setminus {3} to mathbb{R}$, which are equal on all of $mathbb{R} setminus {3}$. The functions are not equal, since they have different domains. Actually both are continuous, but you have to pay attention to what "continuous" means on $mathbb{R} setminus {3}$. And yes, removing holes will not change how the function behaves, or how integrals involving the function work for example, and make things simpler
$endgroup$
– Joppy
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
You have two functions $g: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$, and $f: mathbb{R} setminus {3} to mathbb{R}$, which are equal on all of $mathbb{R} setminus {3}$. The functions are not equal, since they have different domains. Actually both are continuous, but you have to pay attention to what "continuous" means on $mathbb{R} setminus {3}$. And yes, removing holes will not change how the function behaves, or how integrals involving the function work for example, and make things simpler
$endgroup$
– Joppy
6 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
$x+2$ is continuous on $mathbb R setminus {3}$.
$endgroup$
– Kavi Rama Murthy
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
$x+2$ is continuous on $mathbb R setminus {3}$.
$endgroup$
– Kavi Rama Murthy
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
I see. So the reason we can set $frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)}$ and $x+2$ equal is because of the restriction to the domain?
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
I see. So the reason we can set $frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)}$ and $x+2$ equal is because of the restriction to the domain?
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
Yes you are right. In fact these two functions are equal on a common domain which is $Bbb R-{3}$ but in $x=3$, $f(x)$ is not defined while $x+2$ is, so they can't be equal
$endgroup$
– Mostafa Ayaz
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes you are right. In fact these two functions are equal on a common domain which is $Bbb R-{3}$ but in $x=3$, $f(x)$ is not defined while $x+2$ is, so they can't be equal
$endgroup$
– Mostafa Ayaz
6 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Continuity is a local phenomenon. A function is continuous or discontinous w.r.t a point, not the whole domain, though we can speak of continuity in the whole domain.
$endgroup$
– Bertrand Wittgenstein's Ghost
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Continuity is a local phenomenon. A function is continuous or discontinous w.r.t a point, not the whole domain, though we can speak of continuity in the whole domain.
$endgroup$
– Bertrand Wittgenstein's Ghost
6 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Two functions are typically defined to be equal if and only if they...
- Share the same domain
- Share the same codomain
- Take on the same values for each input.
Thus, functions $f,g : S to T$ for sets $S,T$ have $f=g$ if and only if $f(x) = g(x)$ for all $x$ in $S$.
For functions with holes, we typically restrict the domain by ensuring the values where the function is not defined at not included. For example, in the functions you have, you have
$$f(x) = frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)} ;;;;; g(x) = x+2$$
Are these equal? Yes, and no.
A function must be defined at all values of the domain. Thus, we can say $3$ is not in the domain of $f$ for sure. But we never specified otherwise the domains and codomains of these functions! Typically, unless stated otherwise, we often assume their domain to be $Bbb R$ or $Bbb C$, minus whatever points are causing problems - and of course, in such cases, $f neq g$ since $f(3)$ is not defined, and thus $f$ normally has domain $Bbb R setminus {3}$ and $g$ generally has domain $Bbb R$.
But that restriction is not necessary. For example, we could define the functions to be $f,g : Bbb R setminus Bbb Q to Bbb R$. Notice that the domain of both functions are now all real numbers except rational numbers, i.e. the irrational numbers. This means $3$ is not in the domain of either function - and since that's the only "trouble spot," and the codomains are equal, and the values are equal at each point in the domain, $f=g$ here.
Or even more simply: we could have $Bbb R setminus {3}$ be the domain of $f$ and $g$ and again have equality! The key point in all this is that, just because $f$ or $g$ do attain defined values for certain inputs, doesn't mean they have to be in the domain.
In short, whether $f=g$ depends on your definitions of each. Under typical assumptions, $f neq g$ in this case, but if we deviate from those assumptions even a little we don't necessarily have inequality.
answered 6 hours ago
Eevee TrainerEevee Trainer
8,72431440
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I greatly appreciate this answer. The definition of function equality is very helpful.
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You are almost correct there!
The domain of the function matters, so for your example we have
$$f:mathbb Rsetminus{3}rightarrowmathbb R,~f(x)=frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{x-3}.$$
You can think of it this way: we don't know yet if we have a removable discontinuity at $x=3$ and there might be a reason why we got this $(x-3)$ in the denominator, so we must exclude $3$ from our domain. Now our function $f$ is obviously continuous on its domain (it is a rational function and we know things about rational functions), and as we have excluded $3$ from our domain there is no point in asking if $f$ is continuous in $x=3$ (simply because it doesn't even exist there). Even when we simplify
$$f(x)=frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{x-3}=x+2$$
we still have the same domain because the domain does not change depending on our manipulations.
Now when it comes to asking wether we have a removable discontinuity we are actually asking the following: do we find a continuous function $g$ such that
$$g:mathbb Rrightarrowmathbb R,~g(x)=begin{cases} f(x),&xneq 3 \ c, &x=3 end{cases}$$
So $g(x)=f(x)$ for all $xinmathbb Rsetminus{3}$ (which is the domain of $f$) and for $x=3$ we are looking for a value to assign to $g(3)$ such that this "new function" $g$ is continuous. So because the domains of $f$ and $g$ are not equal the functions themselves are not equal, but for most purposes e.g. integration we can treat them as equal to make things easier. One example:
we want to calculate $intlimits_{-5}^{2}!f(x),mathrm{d}x$. We then first have to discuss what we actually mean by that, as $f$ is not defined on $(-5,2)$ and after that we have an improper integral to solve, maybe split it up into two integrals...
Luckily one can show that in this case where we had a (single) removable discontinuity the following holds:
$$intlimits_{-5}^{2}!f(x),mathrm{d}x=intlimits_{-5}^{2}!g(x),mathrm{d}x.$$
(This result can be extended e.g. it doesn't matter is we have a finite amount of removable discontinuities or $f(x)neq g(x)$ for only finitely many $x$)
So working with $g$ makes this integration much easier which is why one often chooses to get rid of removable discontinuities and work with the new function $g$.
answered 6 hours ago
HirshyHirshy
4,33021339
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Really just a phenomenal answer. Thank you so much!
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Perhaps you should clarify that your integral is not the standard Riemann integral, which cannot tolerate even a single undefined point. Other than that, good answer!
$endgroup$
– user21820
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As others have noted, the functions are equal on $Bbb Rsetminus{3}$, and $(x+2)$ is easier to work with in almost any respect. Yes, using $=$ in this case is an abuse of notation, but it's really common, and more or less universally accepted as a necessary evil.
However, there is a different perspective where $=$ is more correct, and that's if you see them not as functions, but as rational functions ("function" shouldn't be in this name, to be honest). In other words, as just fractions of abstract / formal polynomials, without worrying about any evaluation or function properties. Then they actually are equal, the same way $frac62$ and $3$ are equal.
answered 6 hours ago
ArthurArthur
120k7120204
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
This is an interesting perspective. I'm going to have to do more research into rational functions. Thanks for the lead.
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
5 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@1Teaches2Learn The field is called "Commutative algebra", and some keywords are "polynomial rings" and "ring of fractions". However, it is usually considered graduate level, so most material is going to be written accordingly.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@1Teaches2Learn: Rational functions are just what you get by treating polynomials as finite tuples encoding their coefficients, and considering 'fractions' of these polynomials, with two fractions $A/B$ and $C/D$ equivalent iff $A·D = B·C$. You get a field if you use polynomials over a field and forbid the denominator from being zero. Only if you wish to evaluate a rational function at some input, then you have to check that the denominator evaluated on the input is nonzero.
$endgroup$
– user21820
1 hour ago
add a comment |
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3 Answers
3
active
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votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
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votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Two functions are typically defined to be equal if and only if they...
- Share the same domain
- Share the same codomain
- Take on the same values for each input.
Thus, functions $f,g : S to T$ for sets $S,T$ have $f=g$ if and only if $f(x) = g(x)$ for all $x$ in $S$.
For functions with holes, we typically restrict the domain by ensuring the values where the function is not defined at not included. For example, in the functions you have, you have
$$f(x) = frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)} ;;;;; g(x) = x+2$$
Are these equal? Yes, and no.
A function must be defined at all values of the domain. Thus, we can say $3$ is not in the domain of $f$ for sure. But we never specified otherwise the domains and codomains of these functions! Typically, unless stated otherwise, we often assume their domain to be $Bbb R$ or $Bbb C$, minus whatever points are causing problems - and of course, in such cases, $f neq g$ since $f(3)$ is not defined, and thus $f$ normally has domain $Bbb R setminus {3}$ and $g$ generally has domain $Bbb R$.
But that restriction is not necessary. For example, we could define the functions to be $f,g : Bbb R setminus Bbb Q to Bbb R$. Notice that the domain of both functions are now all real numbers except rational numbers, i.e. the irrational numbers. This means $3$ is not in the domain of either function - and since that's the only "trouble spot," and the codomains are equal, and the values are equal at each point in the domain, $f=g$ here.
Or even more simply: we could have $Bbb R setminus {3}$ be the domain of $f$ and $g$ and again have equality! The key point in all this is that, just because $f$ or $g$ do attain defined values for certain inputs, doesn't mean they have to be in the domain.
In short, whether $f=g$ depends on your definitions of each. Under typical assumptions, $f neq g$ in this case, but if we deviate from those assumptions even a little we don't necessarily have inequality.
answered 6 hours ago
Eevee TrainerEevee Trainer
8,72431440
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I greatly appreciate this answer. The definition of function equality is very helpful.
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Two functions are typically defined to be equal if and only if they...
- Share the same domain
- Share the same codomain
- Take on the same values for each input.
Thus, functions $f,g : S to T$ for sets $S,T$ have $f=g$ if and only if $f(x) = g(x)$ for all $x$ in $S$.
For functions with holes, we typically restrict the domain by ensuring the values where the function is not defined at not included. For example, in the functions you have, you have
$$f(x) = frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)} ;;;;; g(x) = x+2$$
Are these equal? Yes, and no.
A function must be defined at all values of the domain. Thus, we can say $3$ is not in the domain of $f$ for sure. But we never specified otherwise the domains and codomains of these functions! Typically, unless stated otherwise, we often assume their domain to be $Bbb R$ or $Bbb C$, minus whatever points are causing problems - and of course, in such cases, $f neq g$ since $f(3)$ is not defined, and thus $f$ normally has domain $Bbb R setminus {3}$ and $g$ generally has domain $Bbb R$.
But that restriction is not necessary. For example, we could define the functions to be $f,g : Bbb R setminus Bbb Q to Bbb R$. Notice that the domain of both functions are now all real numbers except rational numbers, i.e. the irrational numbers. This means $3$ is not in the domain of either function - and since that's the only "trouble spot," and the codomains are equal, and the values are equal at each point in the domain, $f=g$ here.
Or even more simply: we could have $Bbb R setminus {3}$ be the domain of $f$ and $g$ and again have equality! The key point in all this is that, just because $f$ or $g$ do attain defined values for certain inputs, doesn't mean they have to be in the domain.
In short, whether $f=g$ depends on your definitions of each. Under typical assumptions, $f neq g$ in this case, but if we deviate from those assumptions even a little we don't necessarily have inequality.
answered 6 hours ago
Eevee TrainerEevee Trainer
8,72431440
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I greatly appreciate this answer. The definition of function equality is very helpful.
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Two functions are typically defined to be equal if and only if they...
- Share the same domain
- Share the same codomain
- Take on the same values for each input.
Thus, functions $f,g : S to T$ for sets $S,T$ have $f=g$ if and only if $f(x) = g(x)$ for all $x$ in $S$.
For functions with holes, we typically restrict the domain by ensuring the values where the function is not defined at not included. For example, in the functions you have, you have
$$f(x) = frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)} ;;;;; g(x) = x+2$$
Are these equal? Yes, and no.
A function must be defined at all values of the domain. Thus, we can say $3$ is not in the domain of $f$ for sure. But we never specified otherwise the domains and codomains of these functions! Typically, unless stated otherwise, we often assume their domain to be $Bbb R$ or $Bbb C$, minus whatever points are causing problems - and of course, in such cases, $f neq g$ since $f(3)$ is not defined, and thus $f$ normally has domain $Bbb R setminus {3}$ and $g$ generally has domain $Bbb R$.
But that restriction is not necessary. For example, we could define the functions to be $f,g : Bbb R setminus Bbb Q to Bbb R$. Notice that the domain of both functions are now all real numbers except rational numbers, i.e. the irrational numbers. This means $3$ is not in the domain of either function - and since that's the only "trouble spot," and the codomains are equal, and the values are equal at each point in the domain, $f=g$ here.
Or even more simply: we could have $Bbb R setminus {3}$ be the domain of $f$ and $g$ and again have equality! The key point in all this is that, just because $f$ or $g$ do attain defined values for certain inputs, doesn't mean they have to be in the domain.
In short, whether $f=g$ depends on your definitions of each. Under typical assumptions, $f neq g$ in this case, but if we deviate from those assumptions even a little we don't necessarily have inequality.
answered 6 hours ago
Eevee TrainerEevee Trainer
8,72431440
$endgroup$
Two functions are typically defined to be equal if and only if they...
- Share the same domain
- Share the same codomain
- Take on the same values for each input.
Thus, functions $f,g : S to T$ for sets $S,T$ have $f=g$ if and only if $f(x) = g(x)$ for all $x$ in $S$.
For functions with holes, we typically restrict the domain by ensuring the values where the function is not defined at not included. For example, in the functions you have, you have
$$f(x) = frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)} ;;;;; g(x) = x+2$$
Are these equal? Yes, and no.
A function must be defined at all values of the domain. Thus, we can say $3$ is not in the domain of $f$ for sure. But we never specified otherwise the domains and codomains of these functions! Typically, unless stated otherwise, we often assume their domain to be $Bbb R$ or $Bbb C$, minus whatever points are causing problems - and of course, in such cases, $f neq g$ since $f(3)$ is not defined, and thus $f$ normally has domain $Bbb R setminus {3}$ and $g$ generally has domain $Bbb R$.
But that restriction is not necessary. For example, we could define the functions to be $f,g : Bbb R setminus Bbb Q to Bbb R$. Notice that the domain of both functions are now all real numbers except rational numbers, i.e. the irrational numbers. This means $3$ is not in the domain of either function - and since that's the only "trouble spot," and the codomains are equal, and the values are equal at each point in the domain, $f=g$ here.
Or even more simply: we could have $Bbb R setminus {3}$ be the domain of $f$ and $g$ and again have equality! The key point in all this is that, just because $f$ or $g$ do attain defined values for certain inputs, doesn't mean they have to be in the domain.
In short, whether $f=g$ depends on your definitions of each. Under typical assumptions, $f neq g$ in this case, but if we deviate from those assumptions even a little we don't necessarily have inequality.
answered 6 hours ago
Eevee TrainerEevee Trainer
8,72431440
edited 6 hours ago
answered 6 hours ago
Eevee TrainerEevee Trainer
8,72431440
answered 6 hours ago
Eevee TrainerEevee Trainer
8,72431440
answered 6 hours ago
Eevee TrainerEevee Trainer
8,72431440
8,72431440
$begingroup$
I greatly appreciate this answer. The definition of function equality is very helpful.
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I greatly appreciate this answer. The definition of function equality is very helpful.
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
I greatly appreciate this answer. The definition of function equality is very helpful.
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
I greatly appreciate this answer. The definition of function equality is very helpful.
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You are almost correct there!
The domain of the function matters, so for your example we have
$$f:mathbb Rsetminus{3}rightarrowmathbb R,~f(x)=frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{x-3}.$$
You can think of it this way: we don't know yet if we have a removable discontinuity at $x=3$ and there might be a reason why we got this $(x-3)$ in the denominator, so we must exclude $3$ from our domain. Now our function $f$ is obviously continuous on its domain (it is a rational function and we know things about rational functions), and as we have excluded $3$ from our domain there is no point in asking if $f$ is continuous in $x=3$ (simply because it doesn't even exist there). Even when we simplify
$$f(x)=frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{x-3}=x+2$$
we still have the same domain because the domain does not change depending on our manipulations.
Now when it comes to asking wether we have a removable discontinuity we are actually asking the following: do we find a continuous function $g$ such that
$$g:mathbb Rrightarrowmathbb R,~g(x)=begin{cases} f(x),&xneq 3 \ c, &x=3 end{cases}$$
So $g(x)=f(x)$ for all $xinmathbb Rsetminus{3}$ (which is the domain of $f$) and for $x=3$ we are looking for a value to assign to $g(3)$ such that this "new function" $g$ is continuous. So because the domains of $f$ and $g$ are not equal the functions themselves are not equal, but for most purposes e.g. integration we can treat them as equal to make things easier. One example:
we want to calculate $intlimits_{-5}^{2}!f(x),mathrm{d}x$. We then first have to discuss what we actually mean by that, as $f$ is not defined on $(-5,2)$ and after that we have an improper integral to solve, maybe split it up into two integrals...
Luckily one can show that in this case where we had a (single) removable discontinuity the following holds:
$$intlimits_{-5}^{2}!f(x),mathrm{d}x=intlimits_{-5}^{2}!g(x),mathrm{d}x.$$
(This result can be extended e.g. it doesn't matter is we have a finite amount of removable discontinuities or $f(x)neq g(x)$ for only finitely many $x$)
So working with $g$ makes this integration much easier which is why one often chooses to get rid of removable discontinuities and work with the new function $g$.
answered 6 hours ago
HirshyHirshy
4,33021339
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Really just a phenomenal answer. Thank you so much!
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Perhaps you should clarify that your integral is not the standard Riemann integral, which cannot tolerate even a single undefined point. Other than that, good answer!
$endgroup$
– user21820
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You are almost correct there!
The domain of the function matters, so for your example we have
$$f:mathbb Rsetminus{3}rightarrowmathbb R,~f(x)=frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{x-3}.$$
You can think of it this way: we don't know yet if we have a removable discontinuity at $x=3$ and there might be a reason why we got this $(x-3)$ in the denominator, so we must exclude $3$ from our domain. Now our function $f$ is obviously continuous on its domain (it is a rational function and we know things about rational functions), and as we have excluded $3$ from our domain there is no point in asking if $f$ is continuous in $x=3$ (simply because it doesn't even exist there). Even when we simplify
$$f(x)=frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{x-3}=x+2$$
we still have the same domain because the domain does not change depending on our manipulations.
Now when it comes to asking wether we have a removable discontinuity we are actually asking the following: do we find a continuous function $g$ such that
$$g:mathbb Rrightarrowmathbb R,~g(x)=begin{cases} f(x),&xneq 3 \ c, &x=3 end{cases}$$
So $g(x)=f(x)$ for all $xinmathbb Rsetminus{3}$ (which is the domain of $f$) and for $x=3$ we are looking for a value to assign to $g(3)$ such that this "new function" $g$ is continuous. So because the domains of $f$ and $g$ are not equal the functions themselves are not equal, but for most purposes e.g. integration we can treat them as equal to make things easier. One example:
we want to calculate $intlimits_{-5}^{2}!f(x),mathrm{d}x$. We then first have to discuss what we actually mean by that, as $f$ is not defined on $(-5,2)$ and after that we have an improper integral to solve, maybe split it up into two integrals...
Luckily one can show that in this case where we had a (single) removable discontinuity the following holds:
$$intlimits_{-5}^{2}!f(x),mathrm{d}x=intlimits_{-5}^{2}!g(x),mathrm{d}x.$$
(This result can be extended e.g. it doesn't matter is we have a finite amount of removable discontinuities or $f(x)neq g(x)$ for only finitely many $x$)
So working with $g$ makes this integration much easier which is why one often chooses to get rid of removable discontinuities and work with the new function $g$.
answered 6 hours ago
HirshyHirshy
4,33021339
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Really just a phenomenal answer. Thank you so much!
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Perhaps you should clarify that your integral is not the standard Riemann integral, which cannot tolerate even a single undefined point. Other than that, good answer!
$endgroup$
– user21820
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You are almost correct there!
The domain of the function matters, so for your example we have
$$f:mathbb Rsetminus{3}rightarrowmathbb R,~f(x)=frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{x-3}.$$
You can think of it this way: we don't know yet if we have a removable discontinuity at $x=3$ and there might be a reason why we got this $(x-3)$ in the denominator, so we must exclude $3$ from our domain. Now our function $f$ is obviously continuous on its domain (it is a rational function and we know things about rational functions), and as we have excluded $3$ from our domain there is no point in asking if $f$ is continuous in $x=3$ (simply because it doesn't even exist there). Even when we simplify
$$f(x)=frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{x-3}=x+2$$
we still have the same domain because the domain does not change depending on our manipulations.
Now when it comes to asking wether we have a removable discontinuity we are actually asking the following: do we find a continuous function $g$ such that
$$g:mathbb Rrightarrowmathbb R,~g(x)=begin{cases} f(x),&xneq 3 \ c, &x=3 end{cases}$$
So $g(x)=f(x)$ for all $xinmathbb Rsetminus{3}$ (which is the domain of $f$) and for $x=3$ we are looking for a value to assign to $g(3)$ such that this "new function" $g$ is continuous. So because the domains of $f$ and $g$ are not equal the functions themselves are not equal, but for most purposes e.g. integration we can treat them as equal to make things easier. One example:
we want to calculate $intlimits_{-5}^{2}!f(x),mathrm{d}x$. We then first have to discuss what we actually mean by that, as $f$ is not defined on $(-5,2)$ and after that we have an improper integral to solve, maybe split it up into two integrals...
Luckily one can show that in this case where we had a (single) removable discontinuity the following holds:
$$intlimits_{-5}^{2}!f(x),mathrm{d}x=intlimits_{-5}^{2}!g(x),mathrm{d}x.$$
(This result can be extended e.g. it doesn't matter is we have a finite amount of removable discontinuities or $f(x)neq g(x)$ for only finitely many $x$)
So working with $g$ makes this integration much easier which is why one often chooses to get rid of removable discontinuities and work with the new function $g$.
answered 6 hours ago
HirshyHirshy
4,33021339
$endgroup$
You are almost correct there!
The domain of the function matters, so for your example we have
$$f:mathbb Rsetminus{3}rightarrowmathbb R,~f(x)=frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{x-3}.$$
You can think of it this way: we don't know yet if we have a removable discontinuity at $x=3$ and there might be a reason why we got this $(x-3)$ in the denominator, so we must exclude $3$ from our domain. Now our function $f$ is obviously continuous on its domain (it is a rational function and we know things about rational functions), and as we have excluded $3$ from our domain there is no point in asking if $f$ is continuous in $x=3$ (simply because it doesn't even exist there). Even when we simplify
$$f(x)=frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{x-3}=x+2$$
we still have the same domain because the domain does not change depending on our manipulations.
Now when it comes to asking wether we have a removable discontinuity we are actually asking the following: do we find a continuous function $g$ such that
$$g:mathbb Rrightarrowmathbb R,~g(x)=begin{cases} f(x),&xneq 3 \ c, &x=3 end{cases}$$
So $g(x)=f(x)$ for all $xinmathbb Rsetminus{3}$ (which is the domain of $f$) and for $x=3$ we are looking for a value to assign to $g(3)$ such that this "new function" $g$ is continuous. So because the domains of $f$ and $g$ are not equal the functions themselves are not equal, but for most purposes e.g. integration we can treat them as equal to make things easier. One example:
we want to calculate $intlimits_{-5}^{2}!f(x),mathrm{d}x$. We then first have to discuss what we actually mean by that, as $f$ is not defined on $(-5,2)$ and after that we have an improper integral to solve, maybe split it up into two integrals...
Luckily one can show that in this case where we had a (single) removable discontinuity the following holds:
$$intlimits_{-5}^{2}!f(x),mathrm{d}x=intlimits_{-5}^{2}!g(x),mathrm{d}x.$$
(This result can be extended e.g. it doesn't matter is we have a finite amount of removable discontinuities or $f(x)neq g(x)$ for only finitely many $x$)
So working with $g$ makes this integration much easier which is why one often chooses to get rid of removable discontinuities and work with the new function $g$.
answered 6 hours ago
HirshyHirshy
4,33021339
answered 6 hours ago
HirshyHirshy
4,33021339
answered 6 hours ago
HirshyHirshy
4,33021339
answered 6 hours ago
HirshyHirshy
4,33021339
4,33021339
1
$begingroup$
Really just a phenomenal answer. Thank you so much!
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Perhaps you should clarify that your integral is not the standard Riemann integral, which cannot tolerate even a single undefined point. Other than that, good answer!
$endgroup$
– user21820
1 hour ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Really just a phenomenal answer. Thank you so much!
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Perhaps you should clarify that your integral is not the standard Riemann integral, which cannot tolerate even a single undefined point. Other than that, good answer!
$endgroup$
– user21820
1 hour ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Really just a phenomenal answer. Thank you so much!
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Really just a phenomenal answer. Thank you so much!
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Perhaps you should clarify that your integral is not the standard Riemann integral, which cannot tolerate even a single undefined point. Other than that, good answer!
$endgroup$
– user21820
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Perhaps you should clarify that your integral is not the standard Riemann integral, which cannot tolerate even a single undefined point. Other than that, good answer!
$endgroup$
– user21820
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As others have noted, the functions are equal on $Bbb Rsetminus{3}$, and $(x+2)$ is easier to work with in almost any respect. Yes, using $=$ in this case is an abuse of notation, but it's really common, and more or less universally accepted as a necessary evil.
However, there is a different perspective where $=$ is more correct, and that's if you see them not as functions, but as rational functions ("function" shouldn't be in this name, to be honest). In other words, as just fractions of abstract / formal polynomials, without worrying about any evaluation or function properties. Then they actually are equal, the same way $frac62$ and $3$ are equal.
answered 6 hours ago
ArthurArthur
120k7120204
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
This is an interesting perspective. I'm going to have to do more research into rational functions. Thanks for the lead.
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
5 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@1Teaches2Learn The field is called "Commutative algebra", and some keywords are "polynomial rings" and "ring of fractions". However, it is usually considered graduate level, so most material is going to be written accordingly.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@1Teaches2Learn: Rational functions are just what you get by treating polynomials as finite tuples encoding their coefficients, and considering 'fractions' of these polynomials, with two fractions $A/B$ and $C/D$ equivalent iff $A·D = B·C$. You get a field if you use polynomials over a field and forbid the denominator from being zero. Only if you wish to evaluate a rational function at some input, then you have to check that the denominator evaluated on the input is nonzero.
$endgroup$
– user21820
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As others have noted, the functions are equal on $Bbb Rsetminus{3}$, and $(x+2)$ is easier to work with in almost any respect. Yes, using $=$ in this case is an abuse of notation, but it's really common, and more or less universally accepted as a necessary evil.
However, there is a different perspective where $=$ is more correct, and that's if you see them not as functions, but as rational functions ("function" shouldn't be in this name, to be honest). In other words, as just fractions of abstract / formal polynomials, without worrying about any evaluation or function properties. Then they actually are equal, the same way $frac62$ and $3$ are equal.
answered 6 hours ago
ArthurArthur
120k7120204
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
This is an interesting perspective. I'm going to have to do more research into rational functions. Thanks for the lead.
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
5 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@1Teaches2Learn The field is called "Commutative algebra", and some keywords are "polynomial rings" and "ring of fractions". However, it is usually considered graduate level, so most material is going to be written accordingly.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@1Teaches2Learn: Rational functions are just what you get by treating polynomials as finite tuples encoding their coefficients, and considering 'fractions' of these polynomials, with two fractions $A/B$ and $C/D$ equivalent iff $A·D = B·C$. You get a field if you use polynomials over a field and forbid the denominator from being zero. Only if you wish to evaluate a rational function at some input, then you have to check that the denominator evaluated on the input is nonzero.
$endgroup$
– user21820
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As others have noted, the functions are equal on $Bbb Rsetminus{3}$, and $(x+2)$ is easier to work with in almost any respect. Yes, using $=$ in this case is an abuse of notation, but it's really common, and more or less universally accepted as a necessary evil.
However, there is a different perspective where $=$ is more correct, and that's if you see them not as functions, but as rational functions ("function" shouldn't be in this name, to be honest). In other words, as just fractions of abstract / formal polynomials, without worrying about any evaluation or function properties. Then they actually are equal, the same way $frac62$ and $3$ are equal.
answered 6 hours ago
ArthurArthur
120k7120204
$endgroup$
As others have noted, the functions are equal on $Bbb Rsetminus{3}$, and $(x+2)$ is easier to work with in almost any respect. Yes, using $=$ in this case is an abuse of notation, but it's really common, and more or less universally accepted as a necessary evil.
However, there is a different perspective where $=$ is more correct, and that's if you see them not as functions, but as rational functions ("function" shouldn't be in this name, to be honest). In other words, as just fractions of abstract / formal polynomials, without worrying about any evaluation or function properties. Then they actually are equal, the same way $frac62$ and $3$ are equal.
answered 6 hours ago
ArthurArthur
120k7120204
edited 5 hours ago
answered 6 hours ago
ArthurArthur
120k7120204
answered 6 hours ago
ArthurArthur
120k7120204
answered 6 hours ago
ArthurArthur
120k7120204
120k7120204
1
$begingroup$
This is an interesting perspective. I'm going to have to do more research into rational functions. Thanks for the lead.
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
5 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@1Teaches2Learn The field is called "Commutative algebra", and some keywords are "polynomial rings" and "ring of fractions". However, it is usually considered graduate level, so most material is going to be written accordingly.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@1Teaches2Learn: Rational functions are just what you get by treating polynomials as finite tuples encoding their coefficients, and considering 'fractions' of these polynomials, with two fractions $A/B$ and $C/D$ equivalent iff $A·D = B·C$. You get a field if you use polynomials over a field and forbid the denominator from being zero. Only if you wish to evaluate a rational function at some input, then you have to check that the denominator evaluated on the input is nonzero.
$endgroup$
– user21820
1 hour ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
This is an interesting perspective. I'm going to have to do more research into rational functions. Thanks for the lead.
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
5 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@1Teaches2Learn The field is called "Commutative algebra", and some keywords are "polynomial rings" and "ring of fractions". However, it is usually considered graduate level, so most material is going to be written accordingly.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@1Teaches2Learn: Rational functions are just what you get by treating polynomials as finite tuples encoding their coefficients, and considering 'fractions' of these polynomials, with two fractions $A/B$ and $C/D$ equivalent iff $A·D = B·C$. You get a field if you use polynomials over a field and forbid the denominator from being zero. Only if you wish to evaluate a rational function at some input, then you have to check that the denominator evaluated on the input is nonzero.
$endgroup$
– user21820
1 hour ago
1
1
$begingroup$
This is an interesting perspective. I'm going to have to do more research into rational functions. Thanks for the lead.
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is an interesting perspective. I'm going to have to do more research into rational functions. Thanks for the lead.
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
5 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
@1Teaches2Learn The field is called "Commutative algebra", and some keywords are "polynomial rings" and "ring of fractions". However, it is usually considered graduate level, so most material is going to be written accordingly.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@1Teaches2Learn The field is called "Commutative algebra", and some keywords are "polynomial rings" and "ring of fractions". However, it is usually considered graduate level, so most material is going to be written accordingly.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
5 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@1Teaches2Learn: Rational functions are just what you get by treating polynomials as finite tuples encoding their coefficients, and considering 'fractions' of these polynomials, with two fractions $A/B$ and $C/D$ equivalent iff $A·D = B·C$. You get a field if you use polynomials over a field and forbid the denominator from being zero. Only if you wish to evaluate a rational function at some input, then you have to check that the denominator evaluated on the input is nonzero.
$endgroup$
– user21820
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@1Teaches2Learn: Rational functions are just what you get by treating polynomials as finite tuples encoding their coefficients, and considering 'fractions' of these polynomials, with two fractions $A/B$ and $C/D$ equivalent iff $A·D = B·C$. You get a field if you use polynomials over a field and forbid the denominator from being zero. Only if you wish to evaluate a rational function at some input, then you have to check that the denominator evaluated on the input is nonzero.
$endgroup$
– user21820
1 hour ago
add a comment |
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4
$begingroup$
You have two functions $g: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$, and $f: mathbb{R} setminus {3} to mathbb{R}$, which are equal on all of $mathbb{R} setminus {3}$. The functions are not equal, since they have different domains. Actually both are continuous, but you have to pay attention to what "continuous" means on $mathbb{R} setminus {3}$. And yes, removing holes will not change how the function behaves, or how integrals involving the function work for example, and make things simpler
$endgroup$
– Joppy
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
$x+2$ is continuous on $mathbb R setminus {3}$.
$endgroup$
– Kavi Rama Murthy
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
I see. So the reason we can set $frac{(x-3)(x+2)}{(x-3)}$ and $x+2$ equal is because of the restriction to the domain?
$endgroup$
– 1Teaches2Learn
6 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Yes you are right. In fact these two functions are equal on a common domain which is $Bbb R-{3}$ but in $x=3$, $f(x)$ is not defined while $x+2$ is, so they can't be equal
$endgroup$
– Mostafa Ayaz
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Continuity is a local phenomenon. A function is continuous or discontinous w.r.t a point, not the whole domain, though we can speak of continuity in the whole domain.
$endgroup$
– Bertrand Wittgenstein's Ghost
6 hours ago