How do Sri Vaishnava Acharyas interpret this verse from the Kaushitaki Upanishad?












2















This verse:




For he [Brahman](the self of prâna and pragñâ) makes him [the Jivatma], whom he wishes to lead up from these worlds, do a good deed; and the same makes him, whom he wishes to lead down from these worlds, do a bad deed.




If I remember correctly from a summary of Visishtadvaita by a Vadakalai scholar, he says when a Jiva wants to do good things, and starts doing good things, the Lord helps him do more good things. On the other hand, if a Jiva wants to do bad things, and starts doing bad things, the Lord helps him do more bad things to give him what he wants.



My question is about the "Lord helping him do more bad things" part.



Medieval Thenkalai Acharya Pillai Lokacharya on the other hand, does not seem to agree with that view. He doesn't think the Lord encourages the Jiva to do more bad deeds. Instead, he thinks the Lord tries to reform the Jiva by punishing him.



From his work called the Tattvatraya:



enter image description here



Is this a difference between the Thenkalai and Vadakalai schools?










share|improve this question



























    2















    This verse:




    For he [Brahman](the self of prâna and pragñâ) makes him [the Jivatma], whom he wishes to lead up from these worlds, do a good deed; and the same makes him, whom he wishes to lead down from these worlds, do a bad deed.




    If I remember correctly from a summary of Visishtadvaita by a Vadakalai scholar, he says when a Jiva wants to do good things, and starts doing good things, the Lord helps him do more good things. On the other hand, if a Jiva wants to do bad things, and starts doing bad things, the Lord helps him do more bad things to give him what he wants.



    My question is about the "Lord helping him do more bad things" part.



    Medieval Thenkalai Acharya Pillai Lokacharya on the other hand, does not seem to agree with that view. He doesn't think the Lord encourages the Jiva to do more bad deeds. Instead, he thinks the Lord tries to reform the Jiva by punishing him.



    From his work called the Tattvatraya:



    enter image description here



    Is this a difference between the Thenkalai and Vadakalai schools?










    share|improve this question

























      2












      2








      2








      This verse:




      For he [Brahman](the self of prâna and pragñâ) makes him [the Jivatma], whom he wishes to lead up from these worlds, do a good deed; and the same makes him, whom he wishes to lead down from these worlds, do a bad deed.




      If I remember correctly from a summary of Visishtadvaita by a Vadakalai scholar, he says when a Jiva wants to do good things, and starts doing good things, the Lord helps him do more good things. On the other hand, if a Jiva wants to do bad things, and starts doing bad things, the Lord helps him do more bad things to give him what he wants.



      My question is about the "Lord helping him do more bad things" part.



      Medieval Thenkalai Acharya Pillai Lokacharya on the other hand, does not seem to agree with that view. He doesn't think the Lord encourages the Jiva to do more bad deeds. Instead, he thinks the Lord tries to reform the Jiva by punishing him.



      From his work called the Tattvatraya:



      enter image description here



      Is this a difference between the Thenkalai and Vadakalai schools?










      share|improve this question














      This verse:




      For he [Brahman](the self of prâna and pragñâ) makes him [the Jivatma], whom he wishes to lead up from these worlds, do a good deed; and the same makes him, whom he wishes to lead down from these worlds, do a bad deed.




      If I remember correctly from a summary of Visishtadvaita by a Vadakalai scholar, he says when a Jiva wants to do good things, and starts doing good things, the Lord helps him do more good things. On the other hand, if a Jiva wants to do bad things, and starts doing bad things, the Lord helps him do more bad things to give him what he wants.



      My question is about the "Lord helping him do more bad things" part.



      Medieval Thenkalai Acharya Pillai Lokacharya on the other hand, does not seem to agree with that view. He doesn't think the Lord encourages the Jiva to do more bad deeds. Instead, he thinks the Lord tries to reform the Jiva by punishing him.



      From his work called the Tattvatraya:



      enter image description here



      Is this a difference between the Thenkalai and Vadakalai schools?







      sri-vaishnava vishishtadvaita thenkalai vadakalai kaushitaki-upanishad






      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question











      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question










      asked 17 hours ago









      IkshvakuIkshvaku

      6,228434




      6,228434






















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          5














          Ramanujacharya discusses this Kaushitaki Upanishad verse in this section of the Sri Bhashya, commenting on Adhyaya 2 Pada 3 Sutra 41 of the Brahma Sutras:




          [Objection:] “But there is a scriptural text.--'He (the Lord) makes him whom he wishes to lead up from these worlds do a good deed, and the same makes him whom he wishes to lead down from these worlds do a bad deed' (Kau. Up. III, 8)--which means that the Lord himself causes men to do good and evil actions, and this does not agree with the partial independence claimed above for the soul.”



          [Reply:] The text quoted, we reply, does not apply to all agents, but means that the Lord, wishing to do a favour to those who are resolved on acting so as fully to please the highest Person, engenders in their minds a tendency towards highly virtuous actions, such as are means to attain to him; while on the other hand, in order to punish those who are resolved on lines of action altogether displeasing to him, he engenders in their minds a delight in such actions as have a downward tendency and are obstacles in the way of the attainment of the Lord. Thus the Lord himself says, 'I am the origin of all, everything proceeds from me; knowing this the wise worship me with love. To them ever devoted, worshipping me in love, I give that means of wisdom by which they attain to me. In mercy only to them, dwelling in their hearts, do I destroy the darkness born of ignorance, with the brilliant light of knowledge' (Bha. Gî. X, 8; 10-11). And further on the Lord--after having described 'demoniac' people, in the passus beginning 'they declare the world to be without a Truth, without a resting-place, without a Ruler,' and ending 'malignantly hating me who abides in their own bodies and those of others'--declares, 'These evil and malign haters, most degraded of men, I hurl perpetually into transmigrations and into demoniac wombs' (XVI, 8-19).




          And this does not contradict the quoted passage of P.B. Annangaracharya’s commentary on the Tattvatrayam, because that passage describes Sriman Narayana giving punishments to the Jiva, and Ramanujacharya is speaking about a way to punish the Jiva. Now it is true that in the larger scheme of things, punishment in general is a way to reform the Jiva and eventually lead him to Moksha. Once the Jiva acquires Viveka or discrimination, he realizes all the consequences that ensue from committing sins, and so he reforms his behavior.






          share|improve this answer































            1 Answer
            1






            active

            oldest

            votes








            1 Answer
            1






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            5














            Ramanujacharya discusses this Kaushitaki Upanishad verse in this section of the Sri Bhashya, commenting on Adhyaya 2 Pada 3 Sutra 41 of the Brahma Sutras:




            [Objection:] “But there is a scriptural text.--'He (the Lord) makes him whom he wishes to lead up from these worlds do a good deed, and the same makes him whom he wishes to lead down from these worlds do a bad deed' (Kau. Up. III, 8)--which means that the Lord himself causes men to do good and evil actions, and this does not agree with the partial independence claimed above for the soul.”



            [Reply:] The text quoted, we reply, does not apply to all agents, but means that the Lord, wishing to do a favour to those who are resolved on acting so as fully to please the highest Person, engenders in their minds a tendency towards highly virtuous actions, such as are means to attain to him; while on the other hand, in order to punish those who are resolved on lines of action altogether displeasing to him, he engenders in their minds a delight in such actions as have a downward tendency and are obstacles in the way of the attainment of the Lord. Thus the Lord himself says, 'I am the origin of all, everything proceeds from me; knowing this the wise worship me with love. To them ever devoted, worshipping me in love, I give that means of wisdom by which they attain to me. In mercy only to them, dwelling in their hearts, do I destroy the darkness born of ignorance, with the brilliant light of knowledge' (Bha. Gî. X, 8; 10-11). And further on the Lord--after having described 'demoniac' people, in the passus beginning 'they declare the world to be without a Truth, without a resting-place, without a Ruler,' and ending 'malignantly hating me who abides in their own bodies and those of others'--declares, 'These evil and malign haters, most degraded of men, I hurl perpetually into transmigrations and into demoniac wombs' (XVI, 8-19).




            And this does not contradict the quoted passage of P.B. Annangaracharya’s commentary on the Tattvatrayam, because that passage describes Sriman Narayana giving punishments to the Jiva, and Ramanujacharya is speaking about a way to punish the Jiva. Now it is true that in the larger scheme of things, punishment in general is a way to reform the Jiva and eventually lead him to Moksha. Once the Jiva acquires Viveka or discrimination, he realizes all the consequences that ensue from committing sins, and so he reforms his behavior.






            share|improve this answer




























              5














              Ramanujacharya discusses this Kaushitaki Upanishad verse in this section of the Sri Bhashya, commenting on Adhyaya 2 Pada 3 Sutra 41 of the Brahma Sutras:




              [Objection:] “But there is a scriptural text.--'He (the Lord) makes him whom he wishes to lead up from these worlds do a good deed, and the same makes him whom he wishes to lead down from these worlds do a bad deed' (Kau. Up. III, 8)--which means that the Lord himself causes men to do good and evil actions, and this does not agree with the partial independence claimed above for the soul.”



              [Reply:] The text quoted, we reply, does not apply to all agents, but means that the Lord, wishing to do a favour to those who are resolved on acting so as fully to please the highest Person, engenders in their minds a tendency towards highly virtuous actions, such as are means to attain to him; while on the other hand, in order to punish those who are resolved on lines of action altogether displeasing to him, he engenders in their minds a delight in such actions as have a downward tendency and are obstacles in the way of the attainment of the Lord. Thus the Lord himself says, 'I am the origin of all, everything proceeds from me; knowing this the wise worship me with love. To them ever devoted, worshipping me in love, I give that means of wisdom by which they attain to me. In mercy only to them, dwelling in their hearts, do I destroy the darkness born of ignorance, with the brilliant light of knowledge' (Bha. Gî. X, 8; 10-11). And further on the Lord--after having described 'demoniac' people, in the passus beginning 'they declare the world to be without a Truth, without a resting-place, without a Ruler,' and ending 'malignantly hating me who abides in their own bodies and those of others'--declares, 'These evil and malign haters, most degraded of men, I hurl perpetually into transmigrations and into demoniac wombs' (XVI, 8-19).




              And this does not contradict the quoted passage of P.B. Annangaracharya’s commentary on the Tattvatrayam, because that passage describes Sriman Narayana giving punishments to the Jiva, and Ramanujacharya is speaking about a way to punish the Jiva. Now it is true that in the larger scheme of things, punishment in general is a way to reform the Jiva and eventually lead him to Moksha. Once the Jiva acquires Viveka or discrimination, he realizes all the consequences that ensue from committing sins, and so he reforms his behavior.






              share|improve this answer


























                5












                5








                5







                Ramanujacharya discusses this Kaushitaki Upanishad verse in this section of the Sri Bhashya, commenting on Adhyaya 2 Pada 3 Sutra 41 of the Brahma Sutras:




                [Objection:] “But there is a scriptural text.--'He (the Lord) makes him whom he wishes to lead up from these worlds do a good deed, and the same makes him whom he wishes to lead down from these worlds do a bad deed' (Kau. Up. III, 8)--which means that the Lord himself causes men to do good and evil actions, and this does not agree with the partial independence claimed above for the soul.”



                [Reply:] The text quoted, we reply, does not apply to all agents, but means that the Lord, wishing to do a favour to those who are resolved on acting so as fully to please the highest Person, engenders in their minds a tendency towards highly virtuous actions, such as are means to attain to him; while on the other hand, in order to punish those who are resolved on lines of action altogether displeasing to him, he engenders in their minds a delight in such actions as have a downward tendency and are obstacles in the way of the attainment of the Lord. Thus the Lord himself says, 'I am the origin of all, everything proceeds from me; knowing this the wise worship me with love. To them ever devoted, worshipping me in love, I give that means of wisdom by which they attain to me. In mercy only to them, dwelling in their hearts, do I destroy the darkness born of ignorance, with the brilliant light of knowledge' (Bha. Gî. X, 8; 10-11). And further on the Lord--after having described 'demoniac' people, in the passus beginning 'they declare the world to be without a Truth, without a resting-place, without a Ruler,' and ending 'malignantly hating me who abides in their own bodies and those of others'--declares, 'These evil and malign haters, most degraded of men, I hurl perpetually into transmigrations and into demoniac wombs' (XVI, 8-19).




                And this does not contradict the quoted passage of P.B. Annangaracharya’s commentary on the Tattvatrayam, because that passage describes Sriman Narayana giving punishments to the Jiva, and Ramanujacharya is speaking about a way to punish the Jiva. Now it is true that in the larger scheme of things, punishment in general is a way to reform the Jiva and eventually lead him to Moksha. Once the Jiva acquires Viveka or discrimination, he realizes all the consequences that ensue from committing sins, and so he reforms his behavior.






                share|improve this answer













                Ramanujacharya discusses this Kaushitaki Upanishad verse in this section of the Sri Bhashya, commenting on Adhyaya 2 Pada 3 Sutra 41 of the Brahma Sutras:




                [Objection:] “But there is a scriptural text.--'He (the Lord) makes him whom he wishes to lead up from these worlds do a good deed, and the same makes him whom he wishes to lead down from these worlds do a bad deed' (Kau. Up. III, 8)--which means that the Lord himself causes men to do good and evil actions, and this does not agree with the partial independence claimed above for the soul.”



                [Reply:] The text quoted, we reply, does not apply to all agents, but means that the Lord, wishing to do a favour to those who are resolved on acting so as fully to please the highest Person, engenders in their minds a tendency towards highly virtuous actions, such as are means to attain to him; while on the other hand, in order to punish those who are resolved on lines of action altogether displeasing to him, he engenders in their minds a delight in such actions as have a downward tendency and are obstacles in the way of the attainment of the Lord. Thus the Lord himself says, 'I am the origin of all, everything proceeds from me; knowing this the wise worship me with love. To them ever devoted, worshipping me in love, I give that means of wisdom by which they attain to me. In mercy only to them, dwelling in their hearts, do I destroy the darkness born of ignorance, with the brilliant light of knowledge' (Bha. Gî. X, 8; 10-11). And further on the Lord--after having described 'demoniac' people, in the passus beginning 'they declare the world to be without a Truth, without a resting-place, without a Ruler,' and ending 'malignantly hating me who abides in their own bodies and those of others'--declares, 'These evil and malign haters, most degraded of men, I hurl perpetually into transmigrations and into demoniac wombs' (XVI, 8-19).




                And this does not contradict the quoted passage of P.B. Annangaracharya’s commentary on the Tattvatrayam, because that passage describes Sriman Narayana giving punishments to the Jiva, and Ramanujacharya is speaking about a way to punish the Jiva. Now it is true that in the larger scheme of things, punishment in general is a way to reform the Jiva and eventually lead him to Moksha. Once the Jiva acquires Viveka or discrimination, he realizes all the consequences that ensue from committing sins, and so he reforms his behavior.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 16 hours ago









                Keshav SrinivasanKeshav Srinivasan

                61k12153486




                61k12153486















                    Popular posts from this blog

                    Færeyskur hestur Heimild | Tengill | Tilvísanir | LeiðsagnarvalRossið - síða um færeyska hrossið á færeyskuGott ár hjá færeyska hestinum

                    He _____ here since 1970 . Answer needed [closed]What does “since he was so high” mean?Meaning of “catch birds for”?How do I ensure “since” takes the meaning I want?“Who cares here” meaningWhat does “right round toward” mean?the time tense (had now been detected)What does the phrase “ring around the roses” mean here?Correct usage of “visited upon”Meaning of “foiled rail sabotage bid”It was the third time I had gone to Rome or It is the third time I had been to Rome

                    Slayer Innehåll Historia | Stil, komposition och lyrik | Bandets betydelse och framgångar | Sidoprojekt och samarbeten | Kontroverser | Medlemmar | Utmärkelser och nomineringar | Turnéer och festivaler | Diskografi | Referenser | Externa länkar | Navigeringsmenywww.slayer.net”Metal Massacre vol. 1””Metal Massacre vol. 3””Metal Massacre Volume III””Show No Mercy””Haunting the Chapel””Live Undead””Hell Awaits””Reign in Blood””Reign in Blood””Gold & Platinum – Reign in Blood””Golden Gods Awards Winners”originalet”Kerrang! Hall Of Fame””Slayer Looks Back On 37-Year Career In New Video Series: Part Two””South of Heaven””Gold & Platinum – South of Heaven””Seasons in the Abyss””Gold & Platinum - Seasons in the Abyss””Divine Intervention””Divine Intervention - Release group by Slayer””Gold & Platinum - Divine Intervention””Live Intrusion””Undisputed Attitude””Abolish Government/Superficial Love””Release “Slatanic Slaughter: A Tribute to Slayer” by Various Artists””Diabolus in Musica””Soundtrack to the Apocalypse””God Hates Us All””Systematic - Relationships””War at the Warfield””Gold & Platinum - War at the Warfield””Soundtrack to the Apocalypse””Gold & Platinum - Still Reigning””Metallica, Slayer, Iron Mauden Among Winners At Metal Hammer Awards””Eternal Pyre””Eternal Pyre - Slayer release group””Eternal Pyre””Metal Storm Awards 2006””Kerrang! Hall Of Fame””Slayer Wins 'Best Metal' Grammy Award””Slayer Guitarist Jeff Hanneman Dies””Bullet-For My Valentine booed at Metal Hammer Golden Gods Awards””Unholy Aliance””The End Of Slayer?””Slayer: We Could Thrash Out Two More Albums If We're Fast Enough...””'The Unholy Alliance: Chapter III' UK Dates Added”originalet”Megadeth And Slayer To Co-Headline 'Canadian Carnage' Trek”originalet”World Painted Blood””Release “World Painted Blood” by Slayer””Metallica Heading To Cinemas””Slayer, Megadeth To Join Forces For 'European Carnage' Tour - Dec. 18, 2010”originalet”Slayer's Hanneman Contracts Acute Infection; Band To Bring In Guest Guitarist””Cannibal Corpse's Pat O'Brien Will Step In As Slayer's Guest Guitarist”originalet”Slayer’s Jeff Hanneman Dead at 49””Dave Lombardo Says He Made Only $67,000 In 2011 While Touring With Slayer””Slayer: We Do Not Agree With Dave Lombardo's Substance Or Timeline Of Events””Slayer Welcomes Drummer Paul Bostaph Back To The Fold””Slayer Hope to Unveil Never-Before-Heard Jeff Hanneman Material on Next Album””Slayer Debut New Song 'Implode' During Surprise Golden Gods Appearance””Release group Repentless by Slayer””Repentless - Slayer - Credits””Slayer””Metal Storm Awards 2015””Slayer - to release comic book "Repentless #1"””Slayer To Release 'Repentless' 6.66" Vinyl Box Set””BREAKING NEWS: Slayer Announce Farewell Tour””Slayer Recruit Lamb of God, Anthrax, Behemoth + Testament for Final Tour””Slayer lägger ner efter 37 år””Slayer Announces Second North American Leg Of 'Final' Tour””Final World Tour””Slayer Announces Final European Tour With Lamb of God, Anthrax And Obituary””Slayer To Tour Europe With Lamb of God, Anthrax And Obituary””Slayer To Play 'Last French Show Ever' At Next Year's Hellfst””Slayer's Final World Tour Will Extend Into 2019””Death Angel's Rob Cavestany On Slayer's 'Farewell' Tour: 'Some Of Us Could See This Coming'””Testament Has No Plans To Retire Anytime Soon, Says Chuck Billy””Anthrax's Scott Ian On Slayer's 'Farewell' Tour Plans: 'I Was Surprised And I Wasn't Surprised'””Slayer””Slayer's Morbid Schlock””Review/Rock; For Slayer, the Mania Is the Message””Slayer - Biography””Slayer - Reign In Blood”originalet”Dave Lombardo””An exclusive oral history of Slayer”originalet”Exclusive! Interview With Slayer Guitarist Jeff Hanneman”originalet”Thinking Out Loud: Slayer's Kerry King on hair metal, Satan and being polite””Slayer Lyrics””Slayer - Biography””Most influential artists for extreme metal music””Slayer - Reign in Blood””Slayer guitarist Jeff Hanneman dies aged 49””Slatanic Slaughter: A Tribute to Slayer””Gateway to Hell: A Tribute to Slayer””Covered In Blood””Slayer: The Origins of Thrash in San Francisco, CA.””Why They Rule - #6 Slayer”originalet”Guitar World's 100 Greatest Heavy Metal Guitarists Of All Time”originalet”The fans have spoken: Slayer comes out on top in readers' polls”originalet”Tribute to Jeff Hanneman (1964-2013)””Lamb Of God Frontman: We Sound Like A Slayer Rip-Off””BEHEMOTH Frontman Pays Tribute To SLAYER's JEFF HANNEMAN””Slayer, Hatebreed Doing Double Duty On This Year's Ozzfest””System of a Down””Lacuna Coil’s Andrea Ferro Talks Influences, Skateboarding, Band Origins + More””Slayer - Reign in Blood””Into The Lungs of Hell””Slayer rules - en utställning om fans””Slayer and Their Fans Slashed Through a No-Holds-Barred Night at Gas Monkey””Home””Slayer””Gold & Platinum - The Big 4 Live from Sofia, Bulgaria””Exclusive! Interview With Slayer Guitarist Kerry King””2008-02-23: Wiltern, Los Angeles, CA, USA””Slayer's Kerry King To Perform With Megadeth Tonight! - Oct. 21, 2010”originalet”Dave Lombardo - Biography”Slayer Case DismissedArkiveradUltimate Classic Rock: Slayer guitarist Jeff Hanneman dead at 49.”Slayer: "We could never do any thing like Some Kind Of Monster..."””Cannibal Corpse'S Pat O'Brien Will Step In As Slayer'S Guest Guitarist | The Official Slayer Site”originalet”Slayer Wins 'Best Metal' Grammy Award””Slayer Guitarist Jeff Hanneman Dies””Kerrang! Awards 2006 Blog: Kerrang! Hall Of Fame””Kerrang! Awards 2013: Kerrang! Legend”originalet”Metallica, Slayer, Iron Maien Among Winners At Metal Hammer Awards””Metal Hammer Golden Gods Awards””Bullet For My Valentine Booed At Metal Hammer Golden Gods Awards””Metal Storm Awards 2006””Metal Storm Awards 2015””Slayer's Concert History””Slayer - Relationships””Slayer - Releases”Slayers officiella webbplatsSlayer på MusicBrainzOfficiell webbplatsSlayerSlayerr1373445760000 0001 1540 47353068615-5086262726cb13906545x(data)6033143kn20030215029