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How do you balance your desire for liberation with your wordly desires?


How do you talk to someone whose loved one is dying?Aversion and MahayanaStrange feelings after meditation and mindfulness practice?How do I make non-buddhists help understand I operate with a different view?Shamata and vipassana - loss of willpowerBeing “Present” with the help of body sensations then how to proceed?The arising of arroganceWorking with cycles in meditationWhat is the best way to develop a mind observation habit?Suffering more in order to feel less suffering? Living with suffering?Need some pointers about the current phaseHow to navigate the impracticality of Sigalovada sutra?













5















I'm in a strange situation right now (weird for me, at least).
These past few days have been intense days of reflection on the Dhamma, which generated two effects at the same time in my overall life:



1) I feel like I'm seeing things clearer than ever before. Anicca, Anatta and Dukkha are no more just simple intellectual statements, but they are the filter of most of my experiences.
This is not a declaration of attainments nor anything alike, but rather an oportunity to share how true is the Dhamma and how much freedom can it bring to our lives.
I feel more at peace than ever before, and people around seem to be benefiting from these changes (or so it seems from the outside).
But...



2) I feel more isolated than ever before, which is not a bad thing in itself. It is rather a kind of peaceful loneliness, but loneliness nonetheless.
I feel like quite a few people could understand these feelings, and that I have few people around me to get advice from.
And so it seems be noticed by some close friends and acquantances. Some of them seem to think that I'm becoming something like a robot. I don't think that's the case. Maybe "equanimous" is the word I'd use to describe such state.
One of my friends asked me if I talk to her just out of compassion instead of out of real feelings of friendship.
That question really freaked me out, especially because it seems to be pointing to some truth, but I cannot put my finger on it; I don't know if there's a real difference between those two motivations.



One part of me wants to keep going along this Path, because all of the peace it has brought to me.
The other part is not so sure if it's ready to lose its bonds, relationships and wordly goals and ties, feelings which can be ascribed to still being in love with Samsara, and still having ignorant tendencies.



I feel in a kind of crossroad right now.



Have you experienced something like this?
Is it possible to balance these two goals?



I'd really appreaciate any piece of advice, whether from personal experience or from suttas.



Thanks in advance for your patience and understanding!










share|improve this question
























  • Thanks to all of your wonderful answer. I picked Ruben's as the one that resonates the more with my present mind and situation. But that does not mean that the others were bad answers. Honestly, I could choose more than one, I would. Thanks for your time and compassion, I really appreaciate the kwowledge you had given to me. :)

    – Brian Díaz Flores
    Mar 18 at 18:43















5















I'm in a strange situation right now (weird for me, at least).
These past few days have been intense days of reflection on the Dhamma, which generated two effects at the same time in my overall life:



1) I feel like I'm seeing things clearer than ever before. Anicca, Anatta and Dukkha are no more just simple intellectual statements, but they are the filter of most of my experiences.
This is not a declaration of attainments nor anything alike, but rather an oportunity to share how true is the Dhamma and how much freedom can it bring to our lives.
I feel more at peace than ever before, and people around seem to be benefiting from these changes (or so it seems from the outside).
But...



2) I feel more isolated than ever before, which is not a bad thing in itself. It is rather a kind of peaceful loneliness, but loneliness nonetheless.
I feel like quite a few people could understand these feelings, and that I have few people around me to get advice from.
And so it seems be noticed by some close friends and acquantances. Some of them seem to think that I'm becoming something like a robot. I don't think that's the case. Maybe "equanimous" is the word I'd use to describe such state.
One of my friends asked me if I talk to her just out of compassion instead of out of real feelings of friendship.
That question really freaked me out, especially because it seems to be pointing to some truth, but I cannot put my finger on it; I don't know if there's a real difference between those two motivations.



One part of me wants to keep going along this Path, because all of the peace it has brought to me.
The other part is not so sure if it's ready to lose its bonds, relationships and wordly goals and ties, feelings which can be ascribed to still being in love with Samsara, and still having ignorant tendencies.



I feel in a kind of crossroad right now.



Have you experienced something like this?
Is it possible to balance these two goals?



I'd really appreaciate any piece of advice, whether from personal experience or from suttas.



Thanks in advance for your patience and understanding!










share|improve this question
























  • Thanks to all of your wonderful answer. I picked Ruben's as the one that resonates the more with my present mind and situation. But that does not mean that the others were bad answers. Honestly, I could choose more than one, I would. Thanks for your time and compassion, I really appreaciate the kwowledge you had given to me. :)

    – Brian Díaz Flores
    Mar 18 at 18:43













5












5








5


1






I'm in a strange situation right now (weird for me, at least).
These past few days have been intense days of reflection on the Dhamma, which generated two effects at the same time in my overall life:



1) I feel like I'm seeing things clearer than ever before. Anicca, Anatta and Dukkha are no more just simple intellectual statements, but they are the filter of most of my experiences.
This is not a declaration of attainments nor anything alike, but rather an oportunity to share how true is the Dhamma and how much freedom can it bring to our lives.
I feel more at peace than ever before, and people around seem to be benefiting from these changes (or so it seems from the outside).
But...



2) I feel more isolated than ever before, which is not a bad thing in itself. It is rather a kind of peaceful loneliness, but loneliness nonetheless.
I feel like quite a few people could understand these feelings, and that I have few people around me to get advice from.
And so it seems be noticed by some close friends and acquantances. Some of them seem to think that I'm becoming something like a robot. I don't think that's the case. Maybe "equanimous" is the word I'd use to describe such state.
One of my friends asked me if I talk to her just out of compassion instead of out of real feelings of friendship.
That question really freaked me out, especially because it seems to be pointing to some truth, but I cannot put my finger on it; I don't know if there's a real difference between those two motivations.



One part of me wants to keep going along this Path, because all of the peace it has brought to me.
The other part is not so sure if it's ready to lose its bonds, relationships and wordly goals and ties, feelings which can be ascribed to still being in love with Samsara, and still having ignorant tendencies.



I feel in a kind of crossroad right now.



Have you experienced something like this?
Is it possible to balance these two goals?



I'd really appreaciate any piece of advice, whether from personal experience or from suttas.



Thanks in advance for your patience and understanding!










share|improve this question
















I'm in a strange situation right now (weird for me, at least).
These past few days have been intense days of reflection on the Dhamma, which generated two effects at the same time in my overall life:



1) I feel like I'm seeing things clearer than ever before. Anicca, Anatta and Dukkha are no more just simple intellectual statements, but they are the filter of most of my experiences.
This is not a declaration of attainments nor anything alike, but rather an oportunity to share how true is the Dhamma and how much freedom can it bring to our lives.
I feel more at peace than ever before, and people around seem to be benefiting from these changes (or so it seems from the outside).
But...



2) I feel more isolated than ever before, which is not a bad thing in itself. It is rather a kind of peaceful loneliness, but loneliness nonetheless.
I feel like quite a few people could understand these feelings, and that I have few people around me to get advice from.
And so it seems be noticed by some close friends and acquantances. Some of them seem to think that I'm becoming something like a robot. I don't think that's the case. Maybe "equanimous" is the word I'd use to describe such state.
One of my friends asked me if I talk to her just out of compassion instead of out of real feelings of friendship.
That question really freaked me out, especially because it seems to be pointing to some truth, but I cannot put my finger on it; I don't know if there's a real difference between those two motivations.



One part of me wants to keep going along this Path, because all of the peace it has brought to me.
The other part is not so sure if it's ready to lose its bonds, relationships and wordly goals and ties, feelings which can be ascribed to still being in love with Samsara, and still having ignorant tendencies.



I feel in a kind of crossroad right now.



Have you experienced something like this?
Is it possible to balance these two goals?



I'd really appreaciate any piece of advice, whether from personal experience or from suttas.



Thanks in advance for your patience and understanding!







personal-practice desire personal-experience






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Mar 18 at 9:15







Brian Díaz Flores

















asked Mar 18 at 7:19









Brian Díaz FloresBrian Díaz Flores

47218




47218












  • Thanks to all of your wonderful answer. I picked Ruben's as the one that resonates the more with my present mind and situation. But that does not mean that the others were bad answers. Honestly, I could choose more than one, I would. Thanks for your time and compassion, I really appreaciate the kwowledge you had given to me. :)

    – Brian Díaz Flores
    Mar 18 at 18:43

















  • Thanks to all of your wonderful answer. I picked Ruben's as the one that resonates the more with my present mind and situation. But that does not mean that the others were bad answers. Honestly, I could choose more than one, I would. Thanks for your time and compassion, I really appreaciate the kwowledge you had given to me. :)

    – Brian Díaz Flores
    Mar 18 at 18:43
















Thanks to all of your wonderful answer. I picked Ruben's as the one that resonates the more with my present mind and situation. But that does not mean that the others were bad answers. Honestly, I could choose more than one, I would. Thanks for your time and compassion, I really appreaciate the kwowledge you had given to me. :)

– Brian Díaz Flores
Mar 18 at 18:43





Thanks to all of your wonderful answer. I picked Ruben's as the one that resonates the more with my present mind and situation. But that does not mean that the others were bad answers. Honestly, I could choose more than one, I would. Thanks for your time and compassion, I really appreaciate the kwowledge you had given to me. :)

– Brian Díaz Flores
Mar 18 at 18:43










6 Answers
6






active

oldest

votes


















1














Perhaps the essay "The Balanced Way" by Bhikkhu Bodhi could help you balance your renunciation with the ordinary world around you (but I guess your lady friend could see that you are probably already using this method):




Like a bird in flight borne by its two wings, the practice of Dhamma
is sustained by two contrasting qualities whose balanced development
is essential to straight and steady progress. These two qualities are
renunciation and compassion. As a doctrine of renunciation the Dhamma
points out that the path to liberation is a personal course of
training that centers on the gradual control and mastery of desire,
the root cause of suffering. As a teaching of compassion the Dhamma
bids us to avoid harming others, to act for their welfare, and to help
realize the Buddha's own great resolve to offer the world the way to
the Deathless.



Considered in isolation, renunciation and compassion have inverse
logics that at times seem to point us in opposite directions. The one
steers us to greater solitude aimed at personal purification, the
other to increased involvement with others issuing in beneficent
action. Yet, despite their differences, renunciation and compassion
nurture each other in dynamic interplay throughout the practice of the
path, from its elementary steps of moral discipline to its culmination
in liberating wisdom. The synthesis of the two, their balanced fusion,
is expressed most perfectly in the figure of the Fully Enlightened
One, who is at once the embodiment of complete renunciation and of
all-embracing compassion.



Both renunciation and compassion share a common root in the encounter
with suffering. The one represents our response to suffering
confronted in our own individual experience, the other our response to
suffering witnessed in the lives of others.
Our spontaneous reactions,
however, are only the seeds of these higher qualities, not their
substance. To acquire the capacity to sustain our practice of Dhamma,
renunciation and compassion must be methodically cultivated, and this
requires an ongoing process of reflection which transmutes our initial
stirrings into full-fledged spiritual virtues.



The framework within which this reflection is to be exercised is the
teaching of the Four Noble Truths, which thus provides the common
doctrinal matrix for both renunciation and compassion. Renunciation
develops out of our innate urge to avoid suffering and pain. But
whereas this urge, prior to reflection, leads to an anxious withdrawal
from particular situations perceived as personally threatening,
reflection reveals the basic danger to lie in our existential
situation itself — in being bound by ignorance and craving to a world
which is inherently fearsome, deceptive and unreliable. Thence the
governing motive behind the act of renunciation is the longing for
spiritual freedom, coupled with the recognition that self-purification
is an inward task most easily accomplished when we distance ourselves
from the outer circumstances that nourish our unwholesome tendencies.



Compassion develops out of our spontaneous feelings of sympathy with
others. However, as a spiritual virtue compassion cannot be equated
with a sentimental effusion of emotion, nor does it necessarily imply
a dictum to lose oneself in altruistic activity. Though compassion
surely includes emotional empathy and often does express itself in
action, it comes to full maturity only when guided by wisdom and
tempered by detachment. Wisdom enables us to see beyond the
adventitious misfortunes with which living beings may be temporarily
afflicted to the deep and hidden dimensions of suffering inseparable
from conditioned existence. As a profound and comprehensive
understanding of the Four Noble Truths, wisdom discloses to us the
wide range, diverse gradations, and subtle roots of the suffering to
which our fellow beings are enmeshed, as well as the means to lead
them to irreversible release from suffering. Thence the directives of
spontaneous sympathy and mature compassion are often contradictory,
and only the latter are fully trustworthy as guides to beneficent
action effective in the highest degree. Though often the judicious
exercise of compassion will require us to act or speak up, sometimes
it may well enjoin us to retreat into silence and solitude as the
course most conducive to the long-range good of others as well as of
ourselves.



In our attempt to follow the Dhamma, one or the other of these twin
cardinal virtues will have to be given prominence, depending on our
temperament and circumstances. However, for monk and householder
alike, success in developing the path requires that both receive due
attention and that deficiencies in either gradually be remedied. Over
time we will find that the two, though tending in different
directions, eventually are mutually reinforcing.
Compassion impels us
toward greater renunciation, as we see how our own greed and
attachment make us a danger to others. And renunciation impels us
toward greater compassion, since the relinquishing of craving enables
us to exchange the narrow perspectives of the ego for the wider
perspectives of a mind of boundless sympathy. Held together in this
mutually strengthening tension, renunciation and compassion contribute
to the wholesome balance of the Buddhist path and to the completeness
of its final fruit.







share|improve this answer






























    6















    One of my friends asked me if I talk to her just out of compassion instead of out of real feelings of friendship. That question really freaked me out, especially because it seems to be pointing to some truth




    Indeed. Insightful or intuitive question by the lady




    One part of me wants to keep going along this Path, because all of the peace it has brought to me. The other part is not so sure if is
    ready to lose its bonds, relationships and wordly goals and ties,
    feelings which can be ascribed to still being in love with Samsara,
    and still having ignorant tendencies.




    Worldly friends generally will not abandon you when you live a more isolated life. They like to reassure themselves you are not crazy when you occasionally turn up to one of their social events & act reasonably normally. This said, yes, a genuine Dhamma life in ordinary society is very isolated. It can be more isolated than living in a monastery (because in the monastery there may be some like-minded persons).






    share|improve this answer
































      2














      Kalyāṇamittādivaggo: Good companionship and others



      Zen teachers would say: Don't live a half-hearten life, and the wise praise 3 things: rendering help for ones parents, generosity, renouncing. Once the things done in right order, it would be a lot of self-cheating and the defilement kitchen, not to seek simply the way out. Actually there are less real obligations and the most compassionate gift for this world, for one self and all others, is to become being at least on the straight way to an Arahat. The world is already full of "Bodhisatvas" and soon there will be no more place for all of them...



      So it's all about the question if one likes to get ride of ones "body-debts" or cheat one further on one of the many desired Ahara-hat-path laid out by Mara.



      The younger the better, since an old tree is even harder to bend and handicaps for a full holly life can arise tomorrow.



      (like always not given for trade, exchange, stacks for the world but for release and so most possible not for everyone)






      share|improve this answer










      New contributor




      Samana Johann is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.



























        1














        I guess "desire" (whether "worldly" or "for liberation") has two components: it's an ambition or a goal for the future ("I do X because I aspire towards Y"), a motive; and it's a preference ("I prefer Y", possibly "I'm attached to Y").



        In summary, I guess you try to balance "Wholesome desires" for or about the future; combined with "liberation" in the present.



        I have been motivated to behave "appropriately", where "appropriate behaviour" can be understood as "behaviour taught to children" -- for example, having a temper tantrum in a parking lot is "inappropriate behaviour"; whereas washing the food containers after eating a meal is "appropriate behaviour".



        There are further definitions of "appropriate behaviour" for adults -- keeping laws -- but a lot of freedom too (e.g. to be or not to be a recluse, to practice this or to practice that).



        But maybe "avoiding inappropriate behaviour" is a way to satisfy both desires: a way towards liberation, and, towards worldly situations. For all that the N8P is prescriptive (e.g. "right view, right effort"), the suttas are proscriptive too (e.g. "don't break the precepts, uproot the poisons, avoid the hindrances, abandon the fetters") -- I guess a lot of my desires have been proscriptive.



        My recent questions on this site (e.g. here and here) have been wondering what to put in place of that negativity.




        I'm not sure how anatta informs your view, is "the filter for most of your experiences".



        If someone asked me now whether it was "just out of compassion instead of out of real feelings of friendship", I guess I'd answer something based on Dhamma (since the Dhamma has so much to say about compassion) -- maybe something like, "Relationships! They can be complicated, can't they. Perhaps you're right that compassion isn't real friendship, but I think it's a real part of friendship -- I think "compassion" is wanting someone to be happy, and wanting to avoid ever hurting someone -- and ideally that might go both ways in a relationship, both people feel that. There are other aspects to friendship too -- admiring someone for their virtues, generosity, self-sufficiency, their skills in interacting with people, bravery, kindness."



        In terms of relationships, it's not all about "me" or "my loneliness" -- a more, kind of, objective question might be something like, "am I hurting this person? is this relationship beneficial or is it harmful?"



        To get back to talking about compassion then, you might say, "There's more to a relationship than compassion, but harmlessness is a minimum. I don't want to say, 'I'm doing more good than harm': I need a relationship where I'm not hurting you at all."




        You mentioned loneliness and isolation. I don't understand those words, possibly (if I project onto them from my own experience), they disappear when you stop thinking, "there is an 'I' who is isolated" (i.e. a self-view), and "I wish had a relationship" (i.e. a craving). I suppose I have a Theory of mind and therefore don't believe that I'm alone (instead, the Dalai Lama said once, "I'm not special, I'm like everyone else; seeing yourself as 'special' is a prison.").




        As for, "Some of them seem to think that I'm becoming something like a robot. I don't think that's the case.", maybe there's less conflict if you don't contradict people.



        So "Yes I space out a bit sometimes" might be an appropriate reply, might it?
        My teachers' report card called me dans la lune when I first started grade school, so that's easy for me to accept, that people might see that.
        And if they (friends) really want to talk about mental health and so on, then maybe that's no bad thing, an important topic, worth listening, conversing.



        I guess my view of having an enlightened friend is that, "That's good -- mudita and metta. And yet, enlightened isn't meant to be (shouldn't be, ideally isn't) a handicap or an incapacity." Still there's a reason, I guess, why some people leave home, calling it a "dusty path" and so on, and (I don't know) perhaps that reason is to escape the social obligations which other people try to impose.






        share|improve this answer






























          0














          In the right direction, but still have a long way to go. When your worldly desires fade out, you become closer to liberation. If you are at a cross road, that means something is bothering you, is it the loss of worldly friends ? Or Loneliness ?



          In short, they can be perfectly balanced.



          "If a fool persists in his folly, he can become wise."






          share|improve this answer






























            0














            Peaceful states are great in the path, but they are temporary. So you can enjoy them when they arise but don't cling to these states because peaceful states of mind can't be permanent in one's life unless the person completely disidentifies from the core of the subconscious mind, and the disidentification process from the core of the subconscious mind starts in the last phase of the stream-enterer stage. Only after reaching the once-returner stage the person would have continous peace that would not end in time or with the worldly conditions. That's necessary for a meditator to remember time to time because when the peaceful states gone, it can make the meditators very dissapointed and can stop the meditator to keep going If they haven't prepared themselves for it.



            Feeling of isolation and loneliness is normal in the path. As you go further in the path you'll be internally more vulnerable and as vulnerability grows, you'll open your heart and mind more to the nature of reality and the feeling of isolation and loneliness will decrease and eventually dissapear completely. Then you can live in a cave or you can be in Bill Gates position it doesn't matter. You'll not feel lonely or isolated anymore.



            A Buddhist meditator must either live in solitude or find right people to spend time with and build a Sangha for him/her that would help him/her in the path and give the energy to continue in the path. In some of the countries this is very difficult or impossible, but in the Buddhist countries and many of the western countries this is certainly a doable thing. So when you build a sangha, spend your time with right people, it would be far easier for you to let go of the worldly desires and ordinary wordly people who have completely wrong perceptions, ideas and beliefs and can only pull you down to their own level of frequency and eventually make you stop your spiritual practise completely. That's why being disloyal to the popular culture and society is necessary. Ordinary people's path is the complete opposite of the dhamma. Their path is the suffering path.




            Remember what the Buddha said. There is no condition of life that more powerfully influences your development than cultivating wholesome friends and companions. Start with yourself, as you are today, and build on your strengths to become a better friend and companion to others. And choose who you spend time with carefully




            https://buddhasadvice.wordpress.com/friendships/






            share|improve this answer
























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              6 Answers
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              6 Answers
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              active

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              1














              Perhaps the essay "The Balanced Way" by Bhikkhu Bodhi could help you balance your renunciation with the ordinary world around you (but I guess your lady friend could see that you are probably already using this method):




              Like a bird in flight borne by its two wings, the practice of Dhamma
              is sustained by two contrasting qualities whose balanced development
              is essential to straight and steady progress. These two qualities are
              renunciation and compassion. As a doctrine of renunciation the Dhamma
              points out that the path to liberation is a personal course of
              training that centers on the gradual control and mastery of desire,
              the root cause of suffering. As a teaching of compassion the Dhamma
              bids us to avoid harming others, to act for their welfare, and to help
              realize the Buddha's own great resolve to offer the world the way to
              the Deathless.



              Considered in isolation, renunciation and compassion have inverse
              logics that at times seem to point us in opposite directions. The one
              steers us to greater solitude aimed at personal purification, the
              other to increased involvement with others issuing in beneficent
              action. Yet, despite their differences, renunciation and compassion
              nurture each other in dynamic interplay throughout the practice of the
              path, from its elementary steps of moral discipline to its culmination
              in liberating wisdom. The synthesis of the two, their balanced fusion,
              is expressed most perfectly in the figure of the Fully Enlightened
              One, who is at once the embodiment of complete renunciation and of
              all-embracing compassion.



              Both renunciation and compassion share a common root in the encounter
              with suffering. The one represents our response to suffering
              confronted in our own individual experience, the other our response to
              suffering witnessed in the lives of others.
              Our spontaneous reactions,
              however, are only the seeds of these higher qualities, not their
              substance. To acquire the capacity to sustain our practice of Dhamma,
              renunciation and compassion must be methodically cultivated, and this
              requires an ongoing process of reflection which transmutes our initial
              stirrings into full-fledged spiritual virtues.



              The framework within which this reflection is to be exercised is the
              teaching of the Four Noble Truths, which thus provides the common
              doctrinal matrix for both renunciation and compassion. Renunciation
              develops out of our innate urge to avoid suffering and pain. But
              whereas this urge, prior to reflection, leads to an anxious withdrawal
              from particular situations perceived as personally threatening,
              reflection reveals the basic danger to lie in our existential
              situation itself — in being bound by ignorance and craving to a world
              which is inherently fearsome, deceptive and unreliable. Thence the
              governing motive behind the act of renunciation is the longing for
              spiritual freedom, coupled with the recognition that self-purification
              is an inward task most easily accomplished when we distance ourselves
              from the outer circumstances that nourish our unwholesome tendencies.



              Compassion develops out of our spontaneous feelings of sympathy with
              others. However, as a spiritual virtue compassion cannot be equated
              with a sentimental effusion of emotion, nor does it necessarily imply
              a dictum to lose oneself in altruistic activity. Though compassion
              surely includes emotional empathy and often does express itself in
              action, it comes to full maturity only when guided by wisdom and
              tempered by detachment. Wisdom enables us to see beyond the
              adventitious misfortunes with which living beings may be temporarily
              afflicted to the deep and hidden dimensions of suffering inseparable
              from conditioned existence. As a profound and comprehensive
              understanding of the Four Noble Truths, wisdom discloses to us the
              wide range, diverse gradations, and subtle roots of the suffering to
              which our fellow beings are enmeshed, as well as the means to lead
              them to irreversible release from suffering. Thence the directives of
              spontaneous sympathy and mature compassion are often contradictory,
              and only the latter are fully trustworthy as guides to beneficent
              action effective in the highest degree. Though often the judicious
              exercise of compassion will require us to act or speak up, sometimes
              it may well enjoin us to retreat into silence and solitude as the
              course most conducive to the long-range good of others as well as of
              ourselves.



              In our attempt to follow the Dhamma, one or the other of these twin
              cardinal virtues will have to be given prominence, depending on our
              temperament and circumstances. However, for monk and householder
              alike, success in developing the path requires that both receive due
              attention and that deficiencies in either gradually be remedied. Over
              time we will find that the two, though tending in different
              directions, eventually are mutually reinforcing.
              Compassion impels us
              toward greater renunciation, as we see how our own greed and
              attachment make us a danger to others. And renunciation impels us
              toward greater compassion, since the relinquishing of craving enables
              us to exchange the narrow perspectives of the ego for the wider
              perspectives of a mind of boundless sympathy. Held together in this
              mutually strengthening tension, renunciation and compassion contribute
              to the wholesome balance of the Buddhist path and to the completeness
              of its final fruit.







              share|improve this answer



























                1














                Perhaps the essay "The Balanced Way" by Bhikkhu Bodhi could help you balance your renunciation with the ordinary world around you (but I guess your lady friend could see that you are probably already using this method):




                Like a bird in flight borne by its two wings, the practice of Dhamma
                is sustained by two contrasting qualities whose balanced development
                is essential to straight and steady progress. These two qualities are
                renunciation and compassion. As a doctrine of renunciation the Dhamma
                points out that the path to liberation is a personal course of
                training that centers on the gradual control and mastery of desire,
                the root cause of suffering. As a teaching of compassion the Dhamma
                bids us to avoid harming others, to act for their welfare, and to help
                realize the Buddha's own great resolve to offer the world the way to
                the Deathless.



                Considered in isolation, renunciation and compassion have inverse
                logics that at times seem to point us in opposite directions. The one
                steers us to greater solitude aimed at personal purification, the
                other to increased involvement with others issuing in beneficent
                action. Yet, despite their differences, renunciation and compassion
                nurture each other in dynamic interplay throughout the practice of the
                path, from its elementary steps of moral discipline to its culmination
                in liberating wisdom. The synthesis of the two, their balanced fusion,
                is expressed most perfectly in the figure of the Fully Enlightened
                One, who is at once the embodiment of complete renunciation and of
                all-embracing compassion.



                Both renunciation and compassion share a common root in the encounter
                with suffering. The one represents our response to suffering
                confronted in our own individual experience, the other our response to
                suffering witnessed in the lives of others.
                Our spontaneous reactions,
                however, are only the seeds of these higher qualities, not their
                substance. To acquire the capacity to sustain our practice of Dhamma,
                renunciation and compassion must be methodically cultivated, and this
                requires an ongoing process of reflection which transmutes our initial
                stirrings into full-fledged spiritual virtues.



                The framework within which this reflection is to be exercised is the
                teaching of the Four Noble Truths, which thus provides the common
                doctrinal matrix for both renunciation and compassion. Renunciation
                develops out of our innate urge to avoid suffering and pain. But
                whereas this urge, prior to reflection, leads to an anxious withdrawal
                from particular situations perceived as personally threatening,
                reflection reveals the basic danger to lie in our existential
                situation itself — in being bound by ignorance and craving to a world
                which is inherently fearsome, deceptive and unreliable. Thence the
                governing motive behind the act of renunciation is the longing for
                spiritual freedom, coupled with the recognition that self-purification
                is an inward task most easily accomplished when we distance ourselves
                from the outer circumstances that nourish our unwholesome tendencies.



                Compassion develops out of our spontaneous feelings of sympathy with
                others. However, as a spiritual virtue compassion cannot be equated
                with a sentimental effusion of emotion, nor does it necessarily imply
                a dictum to lose oneself in altruistic activity. Though compassion
                surely includes emotional empathy and often does express itself in
                action, it comes to full maturity only when guided by wisdom and
                tempered by detachment. Wisdom enables us to see beyond the
                adventitious misfortunes with which living beings may be temporarily
                afflicted to the deep and hidden dimensions of suffering inseparable
                from conditioned existence. As a profound and comprehensive
                understanding of the Four Noble Truths, wisdom discloses to us the
                wide range, diverse gradations, and subtle roots of the suffering to
                which our fellow beings are enmeshed, as well as the means to lead
                them to irreversible release from suffering. Thence the directives of
                spontaneous sympathy and mature compassion are often contradictory,
                and only the latter are fully trustworthy as guides to beneficent
                action effective in the highest degree. Though often the judicious
                exercise of compassion will require us to act or speak up, sometimes
                it may well enjoin us to retreat into silence and solitude as the
                course most conducive to the long-range good of others as well as of
                ourselves.



                In our attempt to follow the Dhamma, one or the other of these twin
                cardinal virtues will have to be given prominence, depending on our
                temperament and circumstances. However, for monk and householder
                alike, success in developing the path requires that both receive due
                attention and that deficiencies in either gradually be remedied. Over
                time we will find that the two, though tending in different
                directions, eventually are mutually reinforcing.
                Compassion impels us
                toward greater renunciation, as we see how our own greed and
                attachment make us a danger to others. And renunciation impels us
                toward greater compassion, since the relinquishing of craving enables
                us to exchange the narrow perspectives of the ego for the wider
                perspectives of a mind of boundless sympathy. Held together in this
                mutually strengthening tension, renunciation and compassion contribute
                to the wholesome balance of the Buddhist path and to the completeness
                of its final fruit.







                share|improve this answer

























                  1












                  1








                  1







                  Perhaps the essay "The Balanced Way" by Bhikkhu Bodhi could help you balance your renunciation with the ordinary world around you (but I guess your lady friend could see that you are probably already using this method):




                  Like a bird in flight borne by its two wings, the practice of Dhamma
                  is sustained by two contrasting qualities whose balanced development
                  is essential to straight and steady progress. These two qualities are
                  renunciation and compassion. As a doctrine of renunciation the Dhamma
                  points out that the path to liberation is a personal course of
                  training that centers on the gradual control and mastery of desire,
                  the root cause of suffering. As a teaching of compassion the Dhamma
                  bids us to avoid harming others, to act for their welfare, and to help
                  realize the Buddha's own great resolve to offer the world the way to
                  the Deathless.



                  Considered in isolation, renunciation and compassion have inverse
                  logics that at times seem to point us in opposite directions. The one
                  steers us to greater solitude aimed at personal purification, the
                  other to increased involvement with others issuing in beneficent
                  action. Yet, despite their differences, renunciation and compassion
                  nurture each other in dynamic interplay throughout the practice of the
                  path, from its elementary steps of moral discipline to its culmination
                  in liberating wisdom. The synthesis of the two, their balanced fusion,
                  is expressed most perfectly in the figure of the Fully Enlightened
                  One, who is at once the embodiment of complete renunciation and of
                  all-embracing compassion.



                  Both renunciation and compassion share a common root in the encounter
                  with suffering. The one represents our response to suffering
                  confronted in our own individual experience, the other our response to
                  suffering witnessed in the lives of others.
                  Our spontaneous reactions,
                  however, are only the seeds of these higher qualities, not their
                  substance. To acquire the capacity to sustain our practice of Dhamma,
                  renunciation and compassion must be methodically cultivated, and this
                  requires an ongoing process of reflection which transmutes our initial
                  stirrings into full-fledged spiritual virtues.



                  The framework within which this reflection is to be exercised is the
                  teaching of the Four Noble Truths, which thus provides the common
                  doctrinal matrix for both renunciation and compassion. Renunciation
                  develops out of our innate urge to avoid suffering and pain. But
                  whereas this urge, prior to reflection, leads to an anxious withdrawal
                  from particular situations perceived as personally threatening,
                  reflection reveals the basic danger to lie in our existential
                  situation itself — in being bound by ignorance and craving to a world
                  which is inherently fearsome, deceptive and unreliable. Thence the
                  governing motive behind the act of renunciation is the longing for
                  spiritual freedom, coupled with the recognition that self-purification
                  is an inward task most easily accomplished when we distance ourselves
                  from the outer circumstances that nourish our unwholesome tendencies.



                  Compassion develops out of our spontaneous feelings of sympathy with
                  others. However, as a spiritual virtue compassion cannot be equated
                  with a sentimental effusion of emotion, nor does it necessarily imply
                  a dictum to lose oneself in altruistic activity. Though compassion
                  surely includes emotional empathy and often does express itself in
                  action, it comes to full maturity only when guided by wisdom and
                  tempered by detachment. Wisdom enables us to see beyond the
                  adventitious misfortunes with which living beings may be temporarily
                  afflicted to the deep and hidden dimensions of suffering inseparable
                  from conditioned existence. As a profound and comprehensive
                  understanding of the Four Noble Truths, wisdom discloses to us the
                  wide range, diverse gradations, and subtle roots of the suffering to
                  which our fellow beings are enmeshed, as well as the means to lead
                  them to irreversible release from suffering. Thence the directives of
                  spontaneous sympathy and mature compassion are often contradictory,
                  and only the latter are fully trustworthy as guides to beneficent
                  action effective in the highest degree. Though often the judicious
                  exercise of compassion will require us to act or speak up, sometimes
                  it may well enjoin us to retreat into silence and solitude as the
                  course most conducive to the long-range good of others as well as of
                  ourselves.



                  In our attempt to follow the Dhamma, one or the other of these twin
                  cardinal virtues will have to be given prominence, depending on our
                  temperament and circumstances. However, for monk and householder
                  alike, success in developing the path requires that both receive due
                  attention and that deficiencies in either gradually be remedied. Over
                  time we will find that the two, though tending in different
                  directions, eventually are mutually reinforcing.
                  Compassion impels us
                  toward greater renunciation, as we see how our own greed and
                  attachment make us a danger to others. And renunciation impels us
                  toward greater compassion, since the relinquishing of craving enables
                  us to exchange the narrow perspectives of the ego for the wider
                  perspectives of a mind of boundless sympathy. Held together in this
                  mutually strengthening tension, renunciation and compassion contribute
                  to the wholesome balance of the Buddhist path and to the completeness
                  of its final fruit.







                  share|improve this answer













                  Perhaps the essay "The Balanced Way" by Bhikkhu Bodhi could help you balance your renunciation with the ordinary world around you (but I guess your lady friend could see that you are probably already using this method):




                  Like a bird in flight borne by its two wings, the practice of Dhamma
                  is sustained by two contrasting qualities whose balanced development
                  is essential to straight and steady progress. These two qualities are
                  renunciation and compassion. As a doctrine of renunciation the Dhamma
                  points out that the path to liberation is a personal course of
                  training that centers on the gradual control and mastery of desire,
                  the root cause of suffering. As a teaching of compassion the Dhamma
                  bids us to avoid harming others, to act for their welfare, and to help
                  realize the Buddha's own great resolve to offer the world the way to
                  the Deathless.



                  Considered in isolation, renunciation and compassion have inverse
                  logics that at times seem to point us in opposite directions. The one
                  steers us to greater solitude aimed at personal purification, the
                  other to increased involvement with others issuing in beneficent
                  action. Yet, despite their differences, renunciation and compassion
                  nurture each other in dynamic interplay throughout the practice of the
                  path, from its elementary steps of moral discipline to its culmination
                  in liberating wisdom. The synthesis of the two, their balanced fusion,
                  is expressed most perfectly in the figure of the Fully Enlightened
                  One, who is at once the embodiment of complete renunciation and of
                  all-embracing compassion.



                  Both renunciation and compassion share a common root in the encounter
                  with suffering. The one represents our response to suffering
                  confronted in our own individual experience, the other our response to
                  suffering witnessed in the lives of others.
                  Our spontaneous reactions,
                  however, are only the seeds of these higher qualities, not their
                  substance. To acquire the capacity to sustain our practice of Dhamma,
                  renunciation and compassion must be methodically cultivated, and this
                  requires an ongoing process of reflection which transmutes our initial
                  stirrings into full-fledged spiritual virtues.



                  The framework within which this reflection is to be exercised is the
                  teaching of the Four Noble Truths, which thus provides the common
                  doctrinal matrix for both renunciation and compassion. Renunciation
                  develops out of our innate urge to avoid suffering and pain. But
                  whereas this urge, prior to reflection, leads to an anxious withdrawal
                  from particular situations perceived as personally threatening,
                  reflection reveals the basic danger to lie in our existential
                  situation itself — in being bound by ignorance and craving to a world
                  which is inherently fearsome, deceptive and unreliable. Thence the
                  governing motive behind the act of renunciation is the longing for
                  spiritual freedom, coupled with the recognition that self-purification
                  is an inward task most easily accomplished when we distance ourselves
                  from the outer circumstances that nourish our unwholesome tendencies.



                  Compassion develops out of our spontaneous feelings of sympathy with
                  others. However, as a spiritual virtue compassion cannot be equated
                  with a sentimental effusion of emotion, nor does it necessarily imply
                  a dictum to lose oneself in altruistic activity. Though compassion
                  surely includes emotional empathy and often does express itself in
                  action, it comes to full maturity only when guided by wisdom and
                  tempered by detachment. Wisdom enables us to see beyond the
                  adventitious misfortunes with which living beings may be temporarily
                  afflicted to the deep and hidden dimensions of suffering inseparable
                  from conditioned existence. As a profound and comprehensive
                  understanding of the Four Noble Truths, wisdom discloses to us the
                  wide range, diverse gradations, and subtle roots of the suffering to
                  which our fellow beings are enmeshed, as well as the means to lead
                  them to irreversible release from suffering. Thence the directives of
                  spontaneous sympathy and mature compassion are often contradictory,
                  and only the latter are fully trustworthy as guides to beneficent
                  action effective in the highest degree. Though often the judicious
                  exercise of compassion will require us to act or speak up, sometimes
                  it may well enjoin us to retreat into silence and solitude as the
                  course most conducive to the long-range good of others as well as of
                  ourselves.



                  In our attempt to follow the Dhamma, one or the other of these twin
                  cardinal virtues will have to be given prominence, depending on our
                  temperament and circumstances. However, for monk and householder
                  alike, success in developing the path requires that both receive due
                  attention and that deficiencies in either gradually be remedied. Over
                  time we will find that the two, though tending in different
                  directions, eventually are mutually reinforcing.
                  Compassion impels us
                  toward greater renunciation, as we see how our own greed and
                  attachment make us a danger to others. And renunciation impels us
                  toward greater compassion, since the relinquishing of craving enables
                  us to exchange the narrow perspectives of the ego for the wider
                  perspectives of a mind of boundless sympathy. Held together in this
                  mutually strengthening tension, renunciation and compassion contribute
                  to the wholesome balance of the Buddhist path and to the completeness
                  of its final fruit.








                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered Mar 18 at 14:37









                  ruben2020ruben2020

                  15.8k31243




                  15.8k31243





















                      6















                      One of my friends asked me if I talk to her just out of compassion instead of out of real feelings of friendship. That question really freaked me out, especially because it seems to be pointing to some truth




                      Indeed. Insightful or intuitive question by the lady




                      One part of me wants to keep going along this Path, because all of the peace it has brought to me. The other part is not so sure if is
                      ready to lose its bonds, relationships and wordly goals and ties,
                      feelings which can be ascribed to still being in love with Samsara,
                      and still having ignorant tendencies.




                      Worldly friends generally will not abandon you when you live a more isolated life. They like to reassure themselves you are not crazy when you occasionally turn up to one of their social events & act reasonably normally. This said, yes, a genuine Dhamma life in ordinary society is very isolated. It can be more isolated than living in a monastery (because in the monastery there may be some like-minded persons).






                      share|improve this answer





























                        6















                        One of my friends asked me if I talk to her just out of compassion instead of out of real feelings of friendship. That question really freaked me out, especially because it seems to be pointing to some truth




                        Indeed. Insightful or intuitive question by the lady




                        One part of me wants to keep going along this Path, because all of the peace it has brought to me. The other part is not so sure if is
                        ready to lose its bonds, relationships and wordly goals and ties,
                        feelings which can be ascribed to still being in love with Samsara,
                        and still having ignorant tendencies.




                        Worldly friends generally will not abandon you when you live a more isolated life. They like to reassure themselves you are not crazy when you occasionally turn up to one of their social events & act reasonably normally. This said, yes, a genuine Dhamma life in ordinary society is very isolated. It can be more isolated than living in a monastery (because in the monastery there may be some like-minded persons).






                        share|improve this answer



























                          6












                          6








                          6








                          One of my friends asked me if I talk to her just out of compassion instead of out of real feelings of friendship. That question really freaked me out, especially because it seems to be pointing to some truth




                          Indeed. Insightful or intuitive question by the lady




                          One part of me wants to keep going along this Path, because all of the peace it has brought to me. The other part is not so sure if is
                          ready to lose its bonds, relationships and wordly goals and ties,
                          feelings which can be ascribed to still being in love with Samsara,
                          and still having ignorant tendencies.




                          Worldly friends generally will not abandon you when you live a more isolated life. They like to reassure themselves you are not crazy when you occasionally turn up to one of their social events & act reasonably normally. This said, yes, a genuine Dhamma life in ordinary society is very isolated. It can be more isolated than living in a monastery (because in the monastery there may be some like-minded persons).






                          share|improve this answer
















                          One of my friends asked me if I talk to her just out of compassion instead of out of real feelings of friendship. That question really freaked me out, especially because it seems to be pointing to some truth




                          Indeed. Insightful or intuitive question by the lady




                          One part of me wants to keep going along this Path, because all of the peace it has brought to me. The other part is not so sure if is
                          ready to lose its bonds, relationships and wordly goals and ties,
                          feelings which can be ascribed to still being in love with Samsara,
                          and still having ignorant tendencies.




                          Worldly friends generally will not abandon you when you live a more isolated life. They like to reassure themselves you are not crazy when you occasionally turn up to one of their social events & act reasonably normally. This said, yes, a genuine Dhamma life in ordinary society is very isolated. It can be more isolated than living in a monastery (because in the monastery there may be some like-minded persons).







                          share|improve this answer














                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer








                          edited Mar 18 at 9:15

























                          answered Mar 18 at 9:07









                          DhammadhatuDhammadhatu

                          25.6k11044




                          25.6k11044





















                              2














                              Kalyāṇamittādivaggo: Good companionship and others



                              Zen teachers would say: Don't live a half-hearten life, and the wise praise 3 things: rendering help for ones parents, generosity, renouncing. Once the things done in right order, it would be a lot of self-cheating and the defilement kitchen, not to seek simply the way out. Actually there are less real obligations and the most compassionate gift for this world, for one self and all others, is to become being at least on the straight way to an Arahat. The world is already full of "Bodhisatvas" and soon there will be no more place for all of them...



                              So it's all about the question if one likes to get ride of ones "body-debts" or cheat one further on one of the many desired Ahara-hat-path laid out by Mara.



                              The younger the better, since an old tree is even harder to bend and handicaps for a full holly life can arise tomorrow.



                              (like always not given for trade, exchange, stacks for the world but for release and so most possible not for everyone)






                              share|improve this answer










                              New contributor




                              Samana Johann is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                              Check out our Code of Conduct.
























                                2














                                Kalyāṇamittādivaggo: Good companionship and others



                                Zen teachers would say: Don't live a half-hearten life, and the wise praise 3 things: rendering help for ones parents, generosity, renouncing. Once the things done in right order, it would be a lot of self-cheating and the defilement kitchen, not to seek simply the way out. Actually there are less real obligations and the most compassionate gift for this world, for one self and all others, is to become being at least on the straight way to an Arahat. The world is already full of "Bodhisatvas" and soon there will be no more place for all of them...



                                So it's all about the question if one likes to get ride of ones "body-debts" or cheat one further on one of the many desired Ahara-hat-path laid out by Mara.



                                The younger the better, since an old tree is even harder to bend and handicaps for a full holly life can arise tomorrow.



                                (like always not given for trade, exchange, stacks for the world but for release and so most possible not for everyone)






                                share|improve this answer










                                New contributor




                                Samana Johann is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                Check out our Code of Conduct.






















                                  2












                                  2








                                  2







                                  Kalyāṇamittādivaggo: Good companionship and others



                                  Zen teachers would say: Don't live a half-hearten life, and the wise praise 3 things: rendering help for ones parents, generosity, renouncing. Once the things done in right order, it would be a lot of self-cheating and the defilement kitchen, not to seek simply the way out. Actually there are less real obligations and the most compassionate gift for this world, for one self and all others, is to become being at least on the straight way to an Arahat. The world is already full of "Bodhisatvas" and soon there will be no more place for all of them...



                                  So it's all about the question if one likes to get ride of ones "body-debts" or cheat one further on one of the many desired Ahara-hat-path laid out by Mara.



                                  The younger the better, since an old tree is even harder to bend and handicaps for a full holly life can arise tomorrow.



                                  (like always not given for trade, exchange, stacks for the world but for release and so most possible not for everyone)






                                  share|improve this answer










                                  New contributor




                                  Samana Johann is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                  Check out our Code of Conduct.










                                  Kalyāṇamittādivaggo: Good companionship and others



                                  Zen teachers would say: Don't live a half-hearten life, and the wise praise 3 things: rendering help for ones parents, generosity, renouncing. Once the things done in right order, it would be a lot of self-cheating and the defilement kitchen, not to seek simply the way out. Actually there are less real obligations and the most compassionate gift for this world, for one self and all others, is to become being at least on the straight way to an Arahat. The world is already full of "Bodhisatvas" and soon there will be no more place for all of them...



                                  So it's all about the question if one likes to get ride of ones "body-debts" or cheat one further on one of the many desired Ahara-hat-path laid out by Mara.



                                  The younger the better, since an old tree is even harder to bend and handicaps for a full holly life can arise tomorrow.



                                  (like always not given for trade, exchange, stacks for the world but for release and so most possible not for everyone)







                                  share|improve this answer










                                  New contributor




                                  Samana Johann is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                  Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                  share|improve this answer



                                  share|improve this answer








                                  edited Mar 18 at 13:52





















                                  New contributor




                                  Samana Johann is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                  Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                  answered Mar 18 at 11:32









                                  Samana JohannSamana Johann

                                  192




                                  192




                                  New contributor




                                  Samana Johann is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                  Check out our Code of Conduct.





                                  New contributor





                                  Samana Johann is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                  Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                  Samana Johann is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                  Check out our Code of Conduct.





















                                      1














                                      I guess "desire" (whether "worldly" or "for liberation") has two components: it's an ambition or a goal for the future ("I do X because I aspire towards Y"), a motive; and it's a preference ("I prefer Y", possibly "I'm attached to Y").



                                      In summary, I guess you try to balance "Wholesome desires" for or about the future; combined with "liberation" in the present.



                                      I have been motivated to behave "appropriately", where "appropriate behaviour" can be understood as "behaviour taught to children" -- for example, having a temper tantrum in a parking lot is "inappropriate behaviour"; whereas washing the food containers after eating a meal is "appropriate behaviour".



                                      There are further definitions of "appropriate behaviour" for adults -- keeping laws -- but a lot of freedom too (e.g. to be or not to be a recluse, to practice this or to practice that).



                                      But maybe "avoiding inappropriate behaviour" is a way to satisfy both desires: a way towards liberation, and, towards worldly situations. For all that the N8P is prescriptive (e.g. "right view, right effort"), the suttas are proscriptive too (e.g. "don't break the precepts, uproot the poisons, avoid the hindrances, abandon the fetters") -- I guess a lot of my desires have been proscriptive.



                                      My recent questions on this site (e.g. here and here) have been wondering what to put in place of that negativity.




                                      I'm not sure how anatta informs your view, is "the filter for most of your experiences".



                                      If someone asked me now whether it was "just out of compassion instead of out of real feelings of friendship", I guess I'd answer something based on Dhamma (since the Dhamma has so much to say about compassion) -- maybe something like, "Relationships! They can be complicated, can't they. Perhaps you're right that compassion isn't real friendship, but I think it's a real part of friendship -- I think "compassion" is wanting someone to be happy, and wanting to avoid ever hurting someone -- and ideally that might go both ways in a relationship, both people feel that. There are other aspects to friendship too -- admiring someone for their virtues, generosity, self-sufficiency, their skills in interacting with people, bravery, kindness."



                                      In terms of relationships, it's not all about "me" or "my loneliness" -- a more, kind of, objective question might be something like, "am I hurting this person? is this relationship beneficial or is it harmful?"



                                      To get back to talking about compassion then, you might say, "There's more to a relationship than compassion, but harmlessness is a minimum. I don't want to say, 'I'm doing more good than harm': I need a relationship where I'm not hurting you at all."




                                      You mentioned loneliness and isolation. I don't understand those words, possibly (if I project onto them from my own experience), they disappear when you stop thinking, "there is an 'I' who is isolated" (i.e. a self-view), and "I wish had a relationship" (i.e. a craving). I suppose I have a Theory of mind and therefore don't believe that I'm alone (instead, the Dalai Lama said once, "I'm not special, I'm like everyone else; seeing yourself as 'special' is a prison.").




                                      As for, "Some of them seem to think that I'm becoming something like a robot. I don't think that's the case.", maybe there's less conflict if you don't contradict people.



                                      So "Yes I space out a bit sometimes" might be an appropriate reply, might it?
                                      My teachers' report card called me dans la lune when I first started grade school, so that's easy for me to accept, that people might see that.
                                      And if they (friends) really want to talk about mental health and so on, then maybe that's no bad thing, an important topic, worth listening, conversing.



                                      I guess my view of having an enlightened friend is that, "That's good -- mudita and metta. And yet, enlightened isn't meant to be (shouldn't be, ideally isn't) a handicap or an incapacity." Still there's a reason, I guess, why some people leave home, calling it a "dusty path" and so on, and (I don't know) perhaps that reason is to escape the social obligations which other people try to impose.






                                      share|improve this answer



























                                        1














                                        I guess "desire" (whether "worldly" or "for liberation") has two components: it's an ambition or a goal for the future ("I do X because I aspire towards Y"), a motive; and it's a preference ("I prefer Y", possibly "I'm attached to Y").



                                        In summary, I guess you try to balance "Wholesome desires" for or about the future; combined with "liberation" in the present.



                                        I have been motivated to behave "appropriately", where "appropriate behaviour" can be understood as "behaviour taught to children" -- for example, having a temper tantrum in a parking lot is "inappropriate behaviour"; whereas washing the food containers after eating a meal is "appropriate behaviour".



                                        There are further definitions of "appropriate behaviour" for adults -- keeping laws -- but a lot of freedom too (e.g. to be or not to be a recluse, to practice this or to practice that).



                                        But maybe "avoiding inappropriate behaviour" is a way to satisfy both desires: a way towards liberation, and, towards worldly situations. For all that the N8P is prescriptive (e.g. "right view, right effort"), the suttas are proscriptive too (e.g. "don't break the precepts, uproot the poisons, avoid the hindrances, abandon the fetters") -- I guess a lot of my desires have been proscriptive.



                                        My recent questions on this site (e.g. here and here) have been wondering what to put in place of that negativity.




                                        I'm not sure how anatta informs your view, is "the filter for most of your experiences".



                                        If someone asked me now whether it was "just out of compassion instead of out of real feelings of friendship", I guess I'd answer something based on Dhamma (since the Dhamma has so much to say about compassion) -- maybe something like, "Relationships! They can be complicated, can't they. Perhaps you're right that compassion isn't real friendship, but I think it's a real part of friendship -- I think "compassion" is wanting someone to be happy, and wanting to avoid ever hurting someone -- and ideally that might go both ways in a relationship, both people feel that. There are other aspects to friendship too -- admiring someone for their virtues, generosity, self-sufficiency, their skills in interacting with people, bravery, kindness."



                                        In terms of relationships, it's not all about "me" or "my loneliness" -- a more, kind of, objective question might be something like, "am I hurting this person? is this relationship beneficial or is it harmful?"



                                        To get back to talking about compassion then, you might say, "There's more to a relationship than compassion, but harmlessness is a minimum. I don't want to say, 'I'm doing more good than harm': I need a relationship where I'm not hurting you at all."




                                        You mentioned loneliness and isolation. I don't understand those words, possibly (if I project onto them from my own experience), they disappear when you stop thinking, "there is an 'I' who is isolated" (i.e. a self-view), and "I wish had a relationship" (i.e. a craving). I suppose I have a Theory of mind and therefore don't believe that I'm alone (instead, the Dalai Lama said once, "I'm not special, I'm like everyone else; seeing yourself as 'special' is a prison.").




                                        As for, "Some of them seem to think that I'm becoming something like a robot. I don't think that's the case.", maybe there's less conflict if you don't contradict people.



                                        So "Yes I space out a bit sometimes" might be an appropriate reply, might it?
                                        My teachers' report card called me dans la lune when I first started grade school, so that's easy for me to accept, that people might see that.
                                        And if they (friends) really want to talk about mental health and so on, then maybe that's no bad thing, an important topic, worth listening, conversing.



                                        I guess my view of having an enlightened friend is that, "That's good -- mudita and metta. And yet, enlightened isn't meant to be (shouldn't be, ideally isn't) a handicap or an incapacity." Still there's a reason, I guess, why some people leave home, calling it a "dusty path" and so on, and (I don't know) perhaps that reason is to escape the social obligations which other people try to impose.






                                        share|improve this answer

























                                          1












                                          1








                                          1







                                          I guess "desire" (whether "worldly" or "for liberation") has two components: it's an ambition or a goal for the future ("I do X because I aspire towards Y"), a motive; and it's a preference ("I prefer Y", possibly "I'm attached to Y").



                                          In summary, I guess you try to balance "Wholesome desires" for or about the future; combined with "liberation" in the present.



                                          I have been motivated to behave "appropriately", where "appropriate behaviour" can be understood as "behaviour taught to children" -- for example, having a temper tantrum in a parking lot is "inappropriate behaviour"; whereas washing the food containers after eating a meal is "appropriate behaviour".



                                          There are further definitions of "appropriate behaviour" for adults -- keeping laws -- but a lot of freedom too (e.g. to be or not to be a recluse, to practice this or to practice that).



                                          But maybe "avoiding inappropriate behaviour" is a way to satisfy both desires: a way towards liberation, and, towards worldly situations. For all that the N8P is prescriptive (e.g. "right view, right effort"), the suttas are proscriptive too (e.g. "don't break the precepts, uproot the poisons, avoid the hindrances, abandon the fetters") -- I guess a lot of my desires have been proscriptive.



                                          My recent questions on this site (e.g. here and here) have been wondering what to put in place of that negativity.




                                          I'm not sure how anatta informs your view, is "the filter for most of your experiences".



                                          If someone asked me now whether it was "just out of compassion instead of out of real feelings of friendship", I guess I'd answer something based on Dhamma (since the Dhamma has so much to say about compassion) -- maybe something like, "Relationships! They can be complicated, can't they. Perhaps you're right that compassion isn't real friendship, but I think it's a real part of friendship -- I think "compassion" is wanting someone to be happy, and wanting to avoid ever hurting someone -- and ideally that might go both ways in a relationship, both people feel that. There are other aspects to friendship too -- admiring someone for their virtues, generosity, self-sufficiency, their skills in interacting with people, bravery, kindness."



                                          In terms of relationships, it's not all about "me" or "my loneliness" -- a more, kind of, objective question might be something like, "am I hurting this person? is this relationship beneficial or is it harmful?"



                                          To get back to talking about compassion then, you might say, "There's more to a relationship than compassion, but harmlessness is a minimum. I don't want to say, 'I'm doing more good than harm': I need a relationship where I'm not hurting you at all."




                                          You mentioned loneliness and isolation. I don't understand those words, possibly (if I project onto them from my own experience), they disappear when you stop thinking, "there is an 'I' who is isolated" (i.e. a self-view), and "I wish had a relationship" (i.e. a craving). I suppose I have a Theory of mind and therefore don't believe that I'm alone (instead, the Dalai Lama said once, "I'm not special, I'm like everyone else; seeing yourself as 'special' is a prison.").




                                          As for, "Some of them seem to think that I'm becoming something like a robot. I don't think that's the case.", maybe there's less conflict if you don't contradict people.



                                          So "Yes I space out a bit sometimes" might be an appropriate reply, might it?
                                          My teachers' report card called me dans la lune when I first started grade school, so that's easy for me to accept, that people might see that.
                                          And if they (friends) really want to talk about mental health and so on, then maybe that's no bad thing, an important topic, worth listening, conversing.



                                          I guess my view of having an enlightened friend is that, "That's good -- mudita and metta. And yet, enlightened isn't meant to be (shouldn't be, ideally isn't) a handicap or an incapacity." Still there's a reason, I guess, why some people leave home, calling it a "dusty path" and so on, and (I don't know) perhaps that reason is to escape the social obligations which other people try to impose.






                                          share|improve this answer













                                          I guess "desire" (whether "worldly" or "for liberation") has two components: it's an ambition or a goal for the future ("I do X because I aspire towards Y"), a motive; and it's a preference ("I prefer Y", possibly "I'm attached to Y").



                                          In summary, I guess you try to balance "Wholesome desires" for or about the future; combined with "liberation" in the present.



                                          I have been motivated to behave "appropriately", where "appropriate behaviour" can be understood as "behaviour taught to children" -- for example, having a temper tantrum in a parking lot is "inappropriate behaviour"; whereas washing the food containers after eating a meal is "appropriate behaviour".



                                          There are further definitions of "appropriate behaviour" for adults -- keeping laws -- but a lot of freedom too (e.g. to be or not to be a recluse, to practice this or to practice that).



                                          But maybe "avoiding inappropriate behaviour" is a way to satisfy both desires: a way towards liberation, and, towards worldly situations. For all that the N8P is prescriptive (e.g. "right view, right effort"), the suttas are proscriptive too (e.g. "don't break the precepts, uproot the poisons, avoid the hindrances, abandon the fetters") -- I guess a lot of my desires have been proscriptive.



                                          My recent questions on this site (e.g. here and here) have been wondering what to put in place of that negativity.




                                          I'm not sure how anatta informs your view, is "the filter for most of your experiences".



                                          If someone asked me now whether it was "just out of compassion instead of out of real feelings of friendship", I guess I'd answer something based on Dhamma (since the Dhamma has so much to say about compassion) -- maybe something like, "Relationships! They can be complicated, can't they. Perhaps you're right that compassion isn't real friendship, but I think it's a real part of friendship -- I think "compassion" is wanting someone to be happy, and wanting to avoid ever hurting someone -- and ideally that might go both ways in a relationship, both people feel that. There are other aspects to friendship too -- admiring someone for their virtues, generosity, self-sufficiency, their skills in interacting with people, bravery, kindness."



                                          In terms of relationships, it's not all about "me" or "my loneliness" -- a more, kind of, objective question might be something like, "am I hurting this person? is this relationship beneficial or is it harmful?"



                                          To get back to talking about compassion then, you might say, "There's more to a relationship than compassion, but harmlessness is a minimum. I don't want to say, 'I'm doing more good than harm': I need a relationship where I'm not hurting you at all."




                                          You mentioned loneliness and isolation. I don't understand those words, possibly (if I project onto them from my own experience), they disappear when you stop thinking, "there is an 'I' who is isolated" (i.e. a self-view), and "I wish had a relationship" (i.e. a craving). I suppose I have a Theory of mind and therefore don't believe that I'm alone (instead, the Dalai Lama said once, "I'm not special, I'm like everyone else; seeing yourself as 'special' is a prison.").




                                          As for, "Some of them seem to think that I'm becoming something like a robot. I don't think that's the case.", maybe there's less conflict if you don't contradict people.



                                          So "Yes I space out a bit sometimes" might be an appropriate reply, might it?
                                          My teachers' report card called me dans la lune when I first started grade school, so that's easy for me to accept, that people might see that.
                                          And if they (friends) really want to talk about mental health and so on, then maybe that's no bad thing, an important topic, worth listening, conversing.



                                          I guess my view of having an enlightened friend is that, "That's good -- mudita and metta. And yet, enlightened isn't meant to be (shouldn't be, ideally isn't) a handicap or an incapacity." Still there's a reason, I guess, why some people leave home, calling it a "dusty path" and so on, and (I don't know) perhaps that reason is to escape the social obligations which other people try to impose.







                                          share|improve this answer












                                          share|improve this answer



                                          share|improve this answer










                                          answered Mar 18 at 11:53









                                          ChrisWChrisW

                                          30.4k42485




                                          30.4k42485





















                                              0














                                              In the right direction, but still have a long way to go. When your worldly desires fade out, you become closer to liberation. If you are at a cross road, that means something is bothering you, is it the loss of worldly friends ? Or Loneliness ?



                                              In short, they can be perfectly balanced.



                                              "If a fool persists in his folly, he can become wise."






                                              share|improve this answer



























                                                0














                                                In the right direction, but still have a long way to go. When your worldly desires fade out, you become closer to liberation. If you are at a cross road, that means something is bothering you, is it the loss of worldly friends ? Or Loneliness ?



                                                In short, they can be perfectly balanced.



                                                "If a fool persists in his folly, he can become wise."






                                                share|improve this answer

























                                                  0












                                                  0








                                                  0







                                                  In the right direction, but still have a long way to go. When your worldly desires fade out, you become closer to liberation. If you are at a cross road, that means something is bothering you, is it the loss of worldly friends ? Or Loneliness ?



                                                  In short, they can be perfectly balanced.



                                                  "If a fool persists in his folly, he can become wise."






                                                  share|improve this answer













                                                  In the right direction, but still have a long way to go. When your worldly desires fade out, you become closer to liberation. If you are at a cross road, that means something is bothering you, is it the loss of worldly friends ? Or Loneliness ?



                                                  In short, they can be perfectly balanced.



                                                  "If a fool persists in his folly, he can become wise."







                                                  share|improve this answer












                                                  share|improve this answer



                                                  share|improve this answer










                                                  answered Mar 18 at 7:48









                                                  Krizalid_13190Krizalid_13190

                                                  56717




                                                  56717





















                                                      0














                                                      Peaceful states are great in the path, but they are temporary. So you can enjoy them when they arise but don't cling to these states because peaceful states of mind can't be permanent in one's life unless the person completely disidentifies from the core of the subconscious mind, and the disidentification process from the core of the subconscious mind starts in the last phase of the stream-enterer stage. Only after reaching the once-returner stage the person would have continous peace that would not end in time or with the worldly conditions. That's necessary for a meditator to remember time to time because when the peaceful states gone, it can make the meditators very dissapointed and can stop the meditator to keep going If they haven't prepared themselves for it.



                                                      Feeling of isolation and loneliness is normal in the path. As you go further in the path you'll be internally more vulnerable and as vulnerability grows, you'll open your heart and mind more to the nature of reality and the feeling of isolation and loneliness will decrease and eventually dissapear completely. Then you can live in a cave or you can be in Bill Gates position it doesn't matter. You'll not feel lonely or isolated anymore.



                                                      A Buddhist meditator must either live in solitude or find right people to spend time with and build a Sangha for him/her that would help him/her in the path and give the energy to continue in the path. In some of the countries this is very difficult or impossible, but in the Buddhist countries and many of the western countries this is certainly a doable thing. So when you build a sangha, spend your time with right people, it would be far easier for you to let go of the worldly desires and ordinary wordly people who have completely wrong perceptions, ideas and beliefs and can only pull you down to their own level of frequency and eventually make you stop your spiritual practise completely. That's why being disloyal to the popular culture and society is necessary. Ordinary people's path is the complete opposite of the dhamma. Their path is the suffering path.




                                                      Remember what the Buddha said. There is no condition of life that more powerfully influences your development than cultivating wholesome friends and companions. Start with yourself, as you are today, and build on your strengths to become a better friend and companion to others. And choose who you spend time with carefully




                                                      https://buddhasadvice.wordpress.com/friendships/






                                                      share|improve this answer





























                                                        0














                                                        Peaceful states are great in the path, but they are temporary. So you can enjoy them when they arise but don't cling to these states because peaceful states of mind can't be permanent in one's life unless the person completely disidentifies from the core of the subconscious mind, and the disidentification process from the core of the subconscious mind starts in the last phase of the stream-enterer stage. Only after reaching the once-returner stage the person would have continous peace that would not end in time or with the worldly conditions. That's necessary for a meditator to remember time to time because when the peaceful states gone, it can make the meditators very dissapointed and can stop the meditator to keep going If they haven't prepared themselves for it.



                                                        Feeling of isolation and loneliness is normal in the path. As you go further in the path you'll be internally more vulnerable and as vulnerability grows, you'll open your heart and mind more to the nature of reality and the feeling of isolation and loneliness will decrease and eventually dissapear completely. Then you can live in a cave or you can be in Bill Gates position it doesn't matter. You'll not feel lonely or isolated anymore.



                                                        A Buddhist meditator must either live in solitude or find right people to spend time with and build a Sangha for him/her that would help him/her in the path and give the energy to continue in the path. In some of the countries this is very difficult or impossible, but in the Buddhist countries and many of the western countries this is certainly a doable thing. So when you build a sangha, spend your time with right people, it would be far easier for you to let go of the worldly desires and ordinary wordly people who have completely wrong perceptions, ideas and beliefs and can only pull you down to their own level of frequency and eventually make you stop your spiritual practise completely. That's why being disloyal to the popular culture and society is necessary. Ordinary people's path is the complete opposite of the dhamma. Their path is the suffering path.




                                                        Remember what the Buddha said. There is no condition of life that more powerfully influences your development than cultivating wholesome friends and companions. Start with yourself, as you are today, and build on your strengths to become a better friend and companion to others. And choose who you spend time with carefully




                                                        https://buddhasadvice.wordpress.com/friendships/






                                                        share|improve this answer



























                                                          0












                                                          0








                                                          0







                                                          Peaceful states are great in the path, but they are temporary. So you can enjoy them when they arise but don't cling to these states because peaceful states of mind can't be permanent in one's life unless the person completely disidentifies from the core of the subconscious mind, and the disidentification process from the core of the subconscious mind starts in the last phase of the stream-enterer stage. Only after reaching the once-returner stage the person would have continous peace that would not end in time or with the worldly conditions. That's necessary for a meditator to remember time to time because when the peaceful states gone, it can make the meditators very dissapointed and can stop the meditator to keep going If they haven't prepared themselves for it.



                                                          Feeling of isolation and loneliness is normal in the path. As you go further in the path you'll be internally more vulnerable and as vulnerability grows, you'll open your heart and mind more to the nature of reality and the feeling of isolation and loneliness will decrease and eventually dissapear completely. Then you can live in a cave or you can be in Bill Gates position it doesn't matter. You'll not feel lonely or isolated anymore.



                                                          A Buddhist meditator must either live in solitude or find right people to spend time with and build a Sangha for him/her that would help him/her in the path and give the energy to continue in the path. In some of the countries this is very difficult or impossible, but in the Buddhist countries and many of the western countries this is certainly a doable thing. So when you build a sangha, spend your time with right people, it would be far easier for you to let go of the worldly desires and ordinary wordly people who have completely wrong perceptions, ideas and beliefs and can only pull you down to their own level of frequency and eventually make you stop your spiritual practise completely. That's why being disloyal to the popular culture and society is necessary. Ordinary people's path is the complete opposite of the dhamma. Their path is the suffering path.




                                                          Remember what the Buddha said. There is no condition of life that more powerfully influences your development than cultivating wholesome friends and companions. Start with yourself, as you are today, and build on your strengths to become a better friend and companion to others. And choose who you spend time with carefully




                                                          https://buddhasadvice.wordpress.com/friendships/






                                                          share|improve this answer















                                                          Peaceful states are great in the path, but they are temporary. So you can enjoy them when they arise but don't cling to these states because peaceful states of mind can't be permanent in one's life unless the person completely disidentifies from the core of the subconscious mind, and the disidentification process from the core of the subconscious mind starts in the last phase of the stream-enterer stage. Only after reaching the once-returner stage the person would have continous peace that would not end in time or with the worldly conditions. That's necessary for a meditator to remember time to time because when the peaceful states gone, it can make the meditators very dissapointed and can stop the meditator to keep going If they haven't prepared themselves for it.



                                                          Feeling of isolation and loneliness is normal in the path. As you go further in the path you'll be internally more vulnerable and as vulnerability grows, you'll open your heart and mind more to the nature of reality and the feeling of isolation and loneliness will decrease and eventually dissapear completely. Then you can live in a cave or you can be in Bill Gates position it doesn't matter. You'll not feel lonely or isolated anymore.



                                                          A Buddhist meditator must either live in solitude or find right people to spend time with and build a Sangha for him/her that would help him/her in the path and give the energy to continue in the path. In some of the countries this is very difficult or impossible, but in the Buddhist countries and many of the western countries this is certainly a doable thing. So when you build a sangha, spend your time with right people, it would be far easier for you to let go of the worldly desires and ordinary wordly people who have completely wrong perceptions, ideas and beliefs and can only pull you down to their own level of frequency and eventually make you stop your spiritual practise completely. That's why being disloyal to the popular culture and society is necessary. Ordinary people's path is the complete opposite of the dhamma. Their path is the suffering path.




                                                          Remember what the Buddha said. There is no condition of life that more powerfully influences your development than cultivating wholesome friends and companions. Start with yourself, as you are today, and build on your strengths to become a better friend and companion to others. And choose who you spend time with carefully




                                                          https://buddhasadvice.wordpress.com/friendships/







                                                          share|improve this answer














                                                          share|improve this answer



                                                          share|improve this answer








                                                          edited Mar 18 at 10:31

























                                                          answered Mar 18 at 10:04









                                                          Murathan1Murathan1

                                                          60447




                                                          60447



























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Interview With Slayer Guitarist Jeff Hanneman”originalet”Thinking Out Loud: Slayer's Kerry King on hair metal, Satan and being polite””Slayer Lyrics””Slayer - Biography””Most influential artists for extreme metal music””Slayer - Reign in Blood””Slayer guitarist Jeff Hanneman dies aged 49””Slatanic Slaughter: A Tribute to Slayer””Gateway to Hell: A Tribute to Slayer””Covered In Blood””Slayer: The Origins of Thrash in San Francisco, CA.””Why They Rule - #6 Slayer”originalet”Guitar World's 100 Greatest Heavy Metal Guitarists Of All Time”originalet”The fans have spoken: Slayer comes out on top in readers' polls”originalet”Tribute to Jeff Hanneman (1964-2013)””Lamb Of God Frontman: We Sound Like A Slayer Rip-Off””BEHEMOTH Frontman Pays Tribute To SLAYER's JEFF HANNEMAN””Slayer, Hatebreed Doing Double Duty On This Year's Ozzfest””System of a Down””Lacuna Coil’s Andrea Ferro Talks Influences, Skateboarding, Band Origins + More””Slayer - Reign in Blood””Into The Lungs of Hell””Slayer rules - en utställning om fans””Slayer and Their Fans Slashed Through a No-Holds-Barred Night at Gas Monkey””Home””Slayer””Gold & Platinum - The Big 4 Live from Sofia, Bulgaria””Exclusive! Interview With Slayer Guitarist Kerry King””2008-02-23: Wiltern, Los Angeles, CA, USA””Slayer's Kerry King To Perform With Megadeth Tonight! - Oct. 21, 2010”originalet”Dave Lombardo - Biography”Slayer Case DismissedArkiveradUltimate Classic Rock: Slayer guitarist Jeff Hanneman dead at 49.”Slayer: "We could never do any thing like Some Kind Of Monster..."””Cannibal Corpse'S Pat O'Brien Will Step In As Slayer'S Guest Guitarist | The Official Slayer Site”originalet”Slayer Wins 'Best Metal' Grammy Award””Slayer Guitarist Jeff Hanneman Dies””Kerrang! Awards 2006 Blog: Kerrang! Hall Of Fame””Kerrang! Awards 2013: Kerrang! Legend”originalet”Metallica, Slayer, Iron Maien Among Winners At Metal Hammer Awards””Metal Hammer Golden Gods Awards””Bullet For My Valentine Booed At Metal Hammer Golden Gods Awards””Metal Storm Awards 2006””Metal Storm Awards 2015””Slayer's Concert History””Slayer - Relationships””Slayer - Releases”Slayers officiella webbplatsSlayer på MusicBrainzOfficiell webbplatsSlayerSlayerr1373445760000 0001 1540 47353068615-5086262726cb13906545x(data)6033143kn20030215029