What is the meaning of “so” in 1 John in Luther’s Bible (1912)?
I am trying to work on my German skills (very rusty after years of disuse), and I am reading the 1912 Lutherbibel alongside my English Standard Version as well as the NA28 (original Greek).
In 1 John 1:6-10, the NA28 reads as follows:
6 ἐὰν εἴπωμεν ὅτι κοινωνίαν ἔχομεν μετʼ αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐν τῷ
σκότει περιπατῶμεν, ψευδόμεθα καὶ οὐ ποιοῦμεν τὴν ἀλήθειαν·
7 ἐὰν ἐν τῷ φωτὶ περιπατῶμεν, ὡς αὐτός ἐστιν ἐν τῷ
φωτί, κοινωνίαν ἔχομεν μετʼ ἀλλήλων, καὶ τὸ αἷμα Ἰησοῦ
τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ καθαρίζει ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἁμαρτίας.
8 ἐὰν εἴπωμεν ὅτι ἁμαρτίαν οὐκ ἔχομεν, ἑαυτοὺς πλανῶμεν
καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια οὐκ ἔστιν ἐν ἡμῖν.
9 ἐὰν ὁμολογῶμεν τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν, πιστός ἐστιν καὶ δίκαιος, ἵνα ἀφῇ
ἡμῖν τὰς ἁμαρτίας καὶ καθαρίσῃ ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἀδικίας.
10 ἐὰν εἴπωμεν ὅτι οὐχ ἡμαρτήκαμεν, ψεύστην
ποιοῦμεν αὐτόν, καὶ ὁ λόγος αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἔστιν ἐν ἡμῖν.
The ESV (which I believe translates it well) reads as follows:
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
The 1912 Lutherbibel reads as follows:
So wir sagen, daß wir Gemeinschaft mit ihm haben, und wandeln in Finsternis, so lügen wir und tun nicht die Wahrheit.
So wir aber im Licht wandeln, wie er im Lichte ist, so haben wir Gemeinschaft untereinander, und das Blut JEsu Christi, seines Sohnes, macht uns rein von aller Sünde.
So wir sagen, wir haben keine Sünde, so verführen wir uns selbst, und die Wahrheit ist nicht in uns.
So wir aber unsere Sünde bekennen, so ist er treu und gerecht, daß er uns die Sünde vergibt und reiniget uns von aller Untugend.
So wir sagen, wir haben nicht gesündiget, so machen wir ihn zum Lügner, und sein Wort ist nicht in uns.
As you can see, there’s a lot of repetition in this passage. My question relates to the way that the ἐὰν
conditionals are translated. From my understanding of how they function in the Greek, the English translation of “If we say/walk/confess…” is good.
From my memory of the German I learned, I would have expected to see “Wenn wir sagen/gehen/etc…”, so I was surprised to see the “So wir…” construction. It’s not one with which I’m familiar, and due to the word “so” being identical to the English word “so”, I’m having a hard time googling it.
Can someone give me a resource that explains this construction?
translation
New contributor
|
show 2 more comments
I am trying to work on my German skills (very rusty after years of disuse), and I am reading the 1912 Lutherbibel alongside my English Standard Version as well as the NA28 (original Greek).
In 1 John 1:6-10, the NA28 reads as follows:
6 ἐὰν εἴπωμεν ὅτι κοινωνίαν ἔχομεν μετʼ αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐν τῷ
σκότει περιπατῶμεν, ψευδόμεθα καὶ οὐ ποιοῦμεν τὴν ἀλήθειαν·
7 ἐὰν ἐν τῷ φωτὶ περιπατῶμεν, ὡς αὐτός ἐστιν ἐν τῷ
φωτί, κοινωνίαν ἔχομεν μετʼ ἀλλήλων, καὶ τὸ αἷμα Ἰησοῦ
τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ καθαρίζει ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἁμαρτίας.
8 ἐὰν εἴπωμεν ὅτι ἁμαρτίαν οὐκ ἔχομεν, ἑαυτοὺς πλανῶμεν
καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια οὐκ ἔστιν ἐν ἡμῖν.
9 ἐὰν ὁμολογῶμεν τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν, πιστός ἐστιν καὶ δίκαιος, ἵνα ἀφῇ
ἡμῖν τὰς ἁμαρτίας καὶ καθαρίσῃ ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἀδικίας.
10 ἐὰν εἴπωμεν ὅτι οὐχ ἡμαρτήκαμεν, ψεύστην
ποιοῦμεν αὐτόν, καὶ ὁ λόγος αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἔστιν ἐν ἡμῖν.
The ESV (which I believe translates it well) reads as follows:
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
The 1912 Lutherbibel reads as follows:
So wir sagen, daß wir Gemeinschaft mit ihm haben, und wandeln in Finsternis, so lügen wir und tun nicht die Wahrheit.
So wir aber im Licht wandeln, wie er im Lichte ist, so haben wir Gemeinschaft untereinander, und das Blut JEsu Christi, seines Sohnes, macht uns rein von aller Sünde.
So wir sagen, wir haben keine Sünde, so verführen wir uns selbst, und die Wahrheit ist nicht in uns.
So wir aber unsere Sünde bekennen, so ist er treu und gerecht, daß er uns die Sünde vergibt und reiniget uns von aller Untugend.
So wir sagen, wir haben nicht gesündiget, so machen wir ihn zum Lügner, und sein Wort ist nicht in uns.
As you can see, there’s a lot of repetition in this passage. My question relates to the way that the ἐὰν
conditionals are translated. From my understanding of how they function in the Greek, the English translation of “If we say/walk/confess…” is good.
From my memory of the German I learned, I would have expected to see “Wenn wir sagen/gehen/etc…”, so I was surprised to see the “So wir…” construction. It’s not one with which I’m familiar, and due to the word “so” being identical to the English word “so”, I’m having a hard time googling it.
Can someone give me a resource that explains this construction?
translation
New contributor
12
You should be aware that the German used in the Luther-Bible is often a bit old-fashioned or even outdated, compared to modern standard German. If you just want to read the Bible in German, go ahead, but if your goal is to polish and/or improve your German, I'd recommend working with modern literature/movies etc as well.
– Arsak
Mar 19 at 12:26
You can imagine it being a short form of "sofern", and could translate it as "so far as..." or perhaps "insofar as ..."; that may make it more understandable how "so" could have a conditional function.
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 19 at 12:41
1
... or use a more recent translation, such as the Einheitsübersetzung.
– PMF
Mar 19 at 14:01
3
Möge er nur sprechen wie Luther es in der Bibel that! Der Effekt wäre fürwahr ein trefflicher!
– Christian Geiselmann
Mar 19 at 19:34
2
To elaborate on the comment from @Arsak, you are making a mistake when you are referring to a 1912 Luther Bible. 1912 probably refers to the date it was printed. The Luther Bible is to Germany as the King James version is to the English-language realm, except that it is about 200 years older than the KJ Bible. Martin Luther actually translated it in 1534, just a few years after Columbus. There have been minor updates since then, but only enough to keep it from being incomprehensible. Using a nearly 500-year-old text is probably not your best choice if you are trying to learn the language.
– Kevin Keane
Mar 20 at 5:33
|
show 2 more comments
I am trying to work on my German skills (very rusty after years of disuse), and I am reading the 1912 Lutherbibel alongside my English Standard Version as well as the NA28 (original Greek).
In 1 John 1:6-10, the NA28 reads as follows:
6 ἐὰν εἴπωμεν ὅτι κοινωνίαν ἔχομεν μετʼ αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐν τῷ
σκότει περιπατῶμεν, ψευδόμεθα καὶ οὐ ποιοῦμεν τὴν ἀλήθειαν·
7 ἐὰν ἐν τῷ φωτὶ περιπατῶμεν, ὡς αὐτός ἐστιν ἐν τῷ
φωτί, κοινωνίαν ἔχομεν μετʼ ἀλλήλων, καὶ τὸ αἷμα Ἰησοῦ
τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ καθαρίζει ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἁμαρτίας.
8 ἐὰν εἴπωμεν ὅτι ἁμαρτίαν οὐκ ἔχομεν, ἑαυτοὺς πλανῶμεν
καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια οὐκ ἔστιν ἐν ἡμῖν.
9 ἐὰν ὁμολογῶμεν τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν, πιστός ἐστιν καὶ δίκαιος, ἵνα ἀφῇ
ἡμῖν τὰς ἁμαρτίας καὶ καθαρίσῃ ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἀδικίας.
10 ἐὰν εἴπωμεν ὅτι οὐχ ἡμαρτήκαμεν, ψεύστην
ποιοῦμεν αὐτόν, καὶ ὁ λόγος αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἔστιν ἐν ἡμῖν.
The ESV (which I believe translates it well) reads as follows:
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
The 1912 Lutherbibel reads as follows:
So wir sagen, daß wir Gemeinschaft mit ihm haben, und wandeln in Finsternis, so lügen wir und tun nicht die Wahrheit.
So wir aber im Licht wandeln, wie er im Lichte ist, so haben wir Gemeinschaft untereinander, und das Blut JEsu Christi, seines Sohnes, macht uns rein von aller Sünde.
So wir sagen, wir haben keine Sünde, so verführen wir uns selbst, und die Wahrheit ist nicht in uns.
So wir aber unsere Sünde bekennen, so ist er treu und gerecht, daß er uns die Sünde vergibt und reiniget uns von aller Untugend.
So wir sagen, wir haben nicht gesündiget, so machen wir ihn zum Lügner, und sein Wort ist nicht in uns.
As you can see, there’s a lot of repetition in this passage. My question relates to the way that the ἐὰν
conditionals are translated. From my understanding of how they function in the Greek, the English translation of “If we say/walk/confess…” is good.
From my memory of the German I learned, I would have expected to see “Wenn wir sagen/gehen/etc…”, so I was surprised to see the “So wir…” construction. It’s not one with which I’m familiar, and due to the word “so” being identical to the English word “so”, I’m having a hard time googling it.
Can someone give me a resource that explains this construction?
translation
New contributor
I am trying to work on my German skills (very rusty after years of disuse), and I am reading the 1912 Lutherbibel alongside my English Standard Version as well as the NA28 (original Greek).
In 1 John 1:6-10, the NA28 reads as follows:
6 ἐὰν εἴπωμεν ὅτι κοινωνίαν ἔχομεν μετʼ αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐν τῷ
σκότει περιπατῶμεν, ψευδόμεθα καὶ οὐ ποιοῦμεν τὴν ἀλήθειαν·
7 ἐὰν ἐν τῷ φωτὶ περιπατῶμεν, ὡς αὐτός ἐστιν ἐν τῷ
φωτί, κοινωνίαν ἔχομεν μετʼ ἀλλήλων, καὶ τὸ αἷμα Ἰησοῦ
τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ καθαρίζει ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἁμαρτίας.
8 ἐὰν εἴπωμεν ὅτι ἁμαρτίαν οὐκ ἔχομεν, ἑαυτοὺς πλανῶμεν
καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια οὐκ ἔστιν ἐν ἡμῖν.
9 ἐὰν ὁμολογῶμεν τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν, πιστός ἐστιν καὶ δίκαιος, ἵνα ἀφῇ
ἡμῖν τὰς ἁμαρτίας καὶ καθαρίσῃ ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἀδικίας.
10 ἐὰν εἴπωμεν ὅτι οὐχ ἡμαρτήκαμεν, ψεύστην
ποιοῦμεν αὐτόν, καὶ ὁ λόγος αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἔστιν ἐν ἡμῖν.
The ESV (which I believe translates it well) reads as follows:
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
The 1912 Lutherbibel reads as follows:
So wir sagen, daß wir Gemeinschaft mit ihm haben, und wandeln in Finsternis, so lügen wir und tun nicht die Wahrheit.
So wir aber im Licht wandeln, wie er im Lichte ist, so haben wir Gemeinschaft untereinander, und das Blut JEsu Christi, seines Sohnes, macht uns rein von aller Sünde.
So wir sagen, wir haben keine Sünde, so verführen wir uns selbst, und die Wahrheit ist nicht in uns.
So wir aber unsere Sünde bekennen, so ist er treu und gerecht, daß er uns die Sünde vergibt und reiniget uns von aller Untugend.
So wir sagen, wir haben nicht gesündiget, so machen wir ihn zum Lügner, und sein Wort ist nicht in uns.
As you can see, there’s a lot of repetition in this passage. My question relates to the way that the ἐὰν
conditionals are translated. From my understanding of how they function in the Greek, the English translation of “If we say/walk/confess…” is good.
From my memory of the German I learned, I would have expected to see “Wenn wir sagen/gehen/etc…”, so I was surprised to see the “So wir…” construction. It’s not one with which I’m familiar, and due to the word “so” being identical to the English word “so”, I’m having a hard time googling it.
Can someone give me a resource that explains this construction?
translation
translation
New contributor
New contributor
edited Mar 20 at 11:39
LangLangC
5,45311141
5,45311141
New contributor
asked Mar 19 at 11:09
mbm29414mbm29414
1384
1384
New contributor
New contributor
12
You should be aware that the German used in the Luther-Bible is often a bit old-fashioned or even outdated, compared to modern standard German. If you just want to read the Bible in German, go ahead, but if your goal is to polish and/or improve your German, I'd recommend working with modern literature/movies etc as well.
– Arsak
Mar 19 at 12:26
You can imagine it being a short form of "sofern", and could translate it as "so far as..." or perhaps "insofar as ..."; that may make it more understandable how "so" could have a conditional function.
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 19 at 12:41
1
... or use a more recent translation, such as the Einheitsübersetzung.
– PMF
Mar 19 at 14:01
3
Möge er nur sprechen wie Luther es in der Bibel that! Der Effekt wäre fürwahr ein trefflicher!
– Christian Geiselmann
Mar 19 at 19:34
2
To elaborate on the comment from @Arsak, you are making a mistake when you are referring to a 1912 Luther Bible. 1912 probably refers to the date it was printed. The Luther Bible is to Germany as the King James version is to the English-language realm, except that it is about 200 years older than the KJ Bible. Martin Luther actually translated it in 1534, just a few years after Columbus. There have been minor updates since then, but only enough to keep it from being incomprehensible. Using a nearly 500-year-old text is probably not your best choice if you are trying to learn the language.
– Kevin Keane
Mar 20 at 5:33
|
show 2 more comments
12
You should be aware that the German used in the Luther-Bible is often a bit old-fashioned or even outdated, compared to modern standard German. If you just want to read the Bible in German, go ahead, but if your goal is to polish and/or improve your German, I'd recommend working with modern literature/movies etc as well.
– Arsak
Mar 19 at 12:26
You can imagine it being a short form of "sofern", and could translate it as "so far as..." or perhaps "insofar as ..."; that may make it more understandable how "so" could have a conditional function.
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 19 at 12:41
1
... or use a more recent translation, such as the Einheitsübersetzung.
– PMF
Mar 19 at 14:01
3
Möge er nur sprechen wie Luther es in der Bibel that! Der Effekt wäre fürwahr ein trefflicher!
– Christian Geiselmann
Mar 19 at 19:34
2
To elaborate on the comment from @Arsak, you are making a mistake when you are referring to a 1912 Luther Bible. 1912 probably refers to the date it was printed. The Luther Bible is to Germany as the King James version is to the English-language realm, except that it is about 200 years older than the KJ Bible. Martin Luther actually translated it in 1534, just a few years after Columbus. There have been minor updates since then, but only enough to keep it from being incomprehensible. Using a nearly 500-year-old text is probably not your best choice if you are trying to learn the language.
– Kevin Keane
Mar 20 at 5:33
12
12
You should be aware that the German used in the Luther-Bible is often a bit old-fashioned or even outdated, compared to modern standard German. If you just want to read the Bible in German, go ahead, but if your goal is to polish and/or improve your German, I'd recommend working with modern literature/movies etc as well.
– Arsak
Mar 19 at 12:26
You should be aware that the German used in the Luther-Bible is often a bit old-fashioned or even outdated, compared to modern standard German. If you just want to read the Bible in German, go ahead, but if your goal is to polish and/or improve your German, I'd recommend working with modern literature/movies etc as well.
– Arsak
Mar 19 at 12:26
You can imagine it being a short form of "sofern", and could translate it as "so far as..." or perhaps "insofar as ..."; that may make it more understandable how "so" could have a conditional function.
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 19 at 12:41
You can imagine it being a short form of "sofern", and could translate it as "so far as..." or perhaps "insofar as ..."; that may make it more understandable how "so" could have a conditional function.
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 19 at 12:41
1
1
... or use a more recent translation, such as the Einheitsübersetzung.
– PMF
Mar 19 at 14:01
... or use a more recent translation, such as the Einheitsübersetzung.
– PMF
Mar 19 at 14:01
3
3
Möge er nur sprechen wie Luther es in der Bibel that! Der Effekt wäre fürwahr ein trefflicher!
– Christian Geiselmann
Mar 19 at 19:34
Möge er nur sprechen wie Luther es in der Bibel that! Der Effekt wäre fürwahr ein trefflicher!
– Christian Geiselmann
Mar 19 at 19:34
2
2
To elaborate on the comment from @Arsak, you are making a mistake when you are referring to a 1912 Luther Bible. 1912 probably refers to the date it was printed. The Luther Bible is to Germany as the King James version is to the English-language realm, except that it is about 200 years older than the KJ Bible. Martin Luther actually translated it in 1534, just a few years after Columbus. There have been minor updates since then, but only enough to keep it from being incomprehensible. Using a nearly 500-year-old text is probably not your best choice if you are trying to learn the language.
– Kevin Keane
Mar 20 at 5:33
To elaborate on the comment from @Arsak, you are making a mistake when you are referring to a 1912 Luther Bible. 1912 probably refers to the date it was printed. The Luther Bible is to Germany as the King James version is to the English-language realm, except that it is about 200 years older than the KJ Bible. Martin Luther actually translated it in 1534, just a few years after Columbus. There have been minor updates since then, but only enough to keep it from being incomprehensible. Using a nearly 500-year-old text is probably not your best choice if you are trying to learn the language.
– Kevin Keane
Mar 20 at 5:33
|
show 2 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
You're observing a rather uncommon meaning of "so" in German. This word can occasionally mean if. At dwds.de you find an overview about the many meanings of so.
leitet einen konditionalen Gliedsatz ein
veraltet, gehoben wenn, sofern
Beispiele:
- so Gott will, sehen wir uns nächstes Jahr wieder
- warum sie, so sie mich wirklich liebt, kein Geständnis von mir braucht, daß ich ihr verschollener Gatte sei [Frisch, Stiller, 485]
4
The last one is the proper reference. Why don't you simply delete the first quote since it has nothing to do with the bible passage.
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 19 at 12:38
add a comment |
As often, you can find the answer in an online dictionary: https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/so_obwohl_falls
2) (gehoben) falls
(elevated) if
But how would the asker determine the correct choice?
– Stephie
Mar 19 at 13:34
2
The same as Germans do. From context.
– infinitezero
Mar 19 at 20:00
add a comment |
The ESV passage
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Is indeed rendered quite differently if you compare it to the recent version of the so-called "Luther-text" (2017)
6 Wenn wir sagen, dass wir Gemeinschaft mit ihm haben, und wandeln doch in der Finsternis, so lügen wir und tun nicht die Wahrheit.
7 Wenn wir aber im Licht wandeln, wie er im Licht ist, so haben wir Gemeinschaft untereinander, und das Blut Jesu, seines Sohnes, macht uns rein von aller Sünde.
8 Wenn wir sagen, wir haben keine Sünde, so betrügen wir uns selbst, und die Wahrheit ist nicht in uns.
9 Wenn wir aber unsre Sünden bekennen, so ist er treu und gerecht, dass er uns die Sünden vergibt und reinigt uns von aller Ungerechtigkeit.
10 Wenn wir sagen, wir haben nicht gesündigt, so machen wir ihn zum Lügner, und sein Wort ist nicht in uns.
Luther himself wrote it different than the 1912 version in 1545:
6 So wir sa [383a] gen / das wir Gemeinschafft mit jm haben /vnd wandeln im finsternis / So liegen wir / vnd thun nicht die warheit.
7 So wir aber im Liecht wandeln /wie er im liecht ist / So haben wir gemeinschafft vnternander / Vnd das blut Jhesu Christi seines Sons /machet vns rein von aller sünde.
8 So wir sagen / Wir haben keine sünde / So verfüren wir vns selbs / vnd die warheit ist nicht in vns.
9 So wir aber vnsere sünde bekennen / so ist er trew vnd gerecht / das er vns die sünde vergibt / vnd reiniget vns von aller vntugent.
10 So wir sagen / wir haben nicht gesündiget / So machen wir jn zum Lügener / vnd sein wort ist nicht in vns.
That explains two things: even German readers are now rather unfamiliar with this construction,
and an old dictionary even gives 1 Joh as an example for
wie conditionales wenn: […] 1 Joh. 4, 20; dafur jr sagen soltet, so der herr wil, und wir leben, wollen wir dis oder das thun
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "253"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
mbm29414 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fgerman.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f50208%2fwhat-is-the-meaning-of-so-in-1-john-in-luther-s-bible-1912%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
You're observing a rather uncommon meaning of "so" in German. This word can occasionally mean if. At dwds.de you find an overview about the many meanings of so.
leitet einen konditionalen Gliedsatz ein
veraltet, gehoben wenn, sofern
Beispiele:
- so Gott will, sehen wir uns nächstes Jahr wieder
- warum sie, so sie mich wirklich liebt, kein Geständnis von mir braucht, daß ich ihr verschollener Gatte sei [Frisch, Stiller, 485]
4
The last one is the proper reference. Why don't you simply delete the first quote since it has nothing to do with the bible passage.
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 19 at 12:38
add a comment |
You're observing a rather uncommon meaning of "so" in German. This word can occasionally mean if. At dwds.de you find an overview about the many meanings of so.
leitet einen konditionalen Gliedsatz ein
veraltet, gehoben wenn, sofern
Beispiele:
- so Gott will, sehen wir uns nächstes Jahr wieder
- warum sie, so sie mich wirklich liebt, kein Geständnis von mir braucht, daß ich ihr verschollener Gatte sei [Frisch, Stiller, 485]
4
The last one is the proper reference. Why don't you simply delete the first quote since it has nothing to do with the bible passage.
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 19 at 12:38
add a comment |
You're observing a rather uncommon meaning of "so" in German. This word can occasionally mean if. At dwds.de you find an overview about the many meanings of so.
leitet einen konditionalen Gliedsatz ein
veraltet, gehoben wenn, sofern
Beispiele:
- so Gott will, sehen wir uns nächstes Jahr wieder
- warum sie, so sie mich wirklich liebt, kein Geständnis von mir braucht, daß ich ihr verschollener Gatte sei [Frisch, Stiller, 485]
You're observing a rather uncommon meaning of "so" in German. This word can occasionally mean if. At dwds.de you find an overview about the many meanings of so.
leitet einen konditionalen Gliedsatz ein
veraltet, gehoben wenn, sofern
Beispiele:
- so Gott will, sehen wir uns nächstes Jahr wieder
- warum sie, so sie mich wirklich liebt, kein Geständnis von mir braucht, daß ich ihr verschollener Gatte sei [Frisch, Stiller, 485]
edited Mar 19 at 22:14
npst
1,683722
1,683722
answered Mar 19 at 11:44
Frank from FrankfurtFrank from Frankfurt
1,344116
1,344116
4
The last one is the proper reference. Why don't you simply delete the first quote since it has nothing to do with the bible passage.
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 19 at 12:38
add a comment |
4
The last one is the proper reference. Why don't you simply delete the first quote since it has nothing to do with the bible passage.
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 19 at 12:38
4
4
The last one is the proper reference. Why don't you simply delete the first quote since it has nothing to do with the bible passage.
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 19 at 12:38
The last one is the proper reference. Why don't you simply delete the first quote since it has nothing to do with the bible passage.
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 19 at 12:38
add a comment |
As often, you can find the answer in an online dictionary: https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/so_obwohl_falls
2) (gehoben) falls
(elevated) if
But how would the asker determine the correct choice?
– Stephie
Mar 19 at 13:34
2
The same as Germans do. From context.
– infinitezero
Mar 19 at 20:00
add a comment |
As often, you can find the answer in an online dictionary: https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/so_obwohl_falls
2) (gehoben) falls
(elevated) if
But how would the asker determine the correct choice?
– Stephie
Mar 19 at 13:34
2
The same as Germans do. From context.
– infinitezero
Mar 19 at 20:00
add a comment |
As often, you can find the answer in an online dictionary: https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/so_obwohl_falls
2) (gehoben) falls
(elevated) if
As often, you can find the answer in an online dictionary: https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/so_obwohl_falls
2) (gehoben) falls
(elevated) if
answered Mar 19 at 11:17
infinitezeroinfinitezero
72628
72628
But how would the asker determine the correct choice?
– Stephie
Mar 19 at 13:34
2
The same as Germans do. From context.
– infinitezero
Mar 19 at 20:00
add a comment |
But how would the asker determine the correct choice?
– Stephie
Mar 19 at 13:34
2
The same as Germans do. From context.
– infinitezero
Mar 19 at 20:00
But how would the asker determine the correct choice?
– Stephie
Mar 19 at 13:34
But how would the asker determine the correct choice?
– Stephie
Mar 19 at 13:34
2
2
The same as Germans do. From context.
– infinitezero
Mar 19 at 20:00
The same as Germans do. From context.
– infinitezero
Mar 19 at 20:00
add a comment |
The ESV passage
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Is indeed rendered quite differently if you compare it to the recent version of the so-called "Luther-text" (2017)
6 Wenn wir sagen, dass wir Gemeinschaft mit ihm haben, und wandeln doch in der Finsternis, so lügen wir und tun nicht die Wahrheit.
7 Wenn wir aber im Licht wandeln, wie er im Licht ist, so haben wir Gemeinschaft untereinander, und das Blut Jesu, seines Sohnes, macht uns rein von aller Sünde.
8 Wenn wir sagen, wir haben keine Sünde, so betrügen wir uns selbst, und die Wahrheit ist nicht in uns.
9 Wenn wir aber unsre Sünden bekennen, so ist er treu und gerecht, dass er uns die Sünden vergibt und reinigt uns von aller Ungerechtigkeit.
10 Wenn wir sagen, wir haben nicht gesündigt, so machen wir ihn zum Lügner, und sein Wort ist nicht in uns.
Luther himself wrote it different than the 1912 version in 1545:
6 So wir sa [383a] gen / das wir Gemeinschafft mit jm haben /vnd wandeln im finsternis / So liegen wir / vnd thun nicht die warheit.
7 So wir aber im Liecht wandeln /wie er im liecht ist / So haben wir gemeinschafft vnternander / Vnd das blut Jhesu Christi seines Sons /machet vns rein von aller sünde.
8 So wir sagen / Wir haben keine sünde / So verfüren wir vns selbs / vnd die warheit ist nicht in vns.
9 So wir aber vnsere sünde bekennen / so ist er trew vnd gerecht / das er vns die sünde vergibt / vnd reiniget vns von aller vntugent.
10 So wir sagen / wir haben nicht gesündiget / So machen wir jn zum Lügener / vnd sein wort ist nicht in vns.
That explains two things: even German readers are now rather unfamiliar with this construction,
and an old dictionary even gives 1 Joh as an example for
wie conditionales wenn: […] 1 Joh. 4, 20; dafur jr sagen soltet, so der herr wil, und wir leben, wollen wir dis oder das thun
add a comment |
The ESV passage
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Is indeed rendered quite differently if you compare it to the recent version of the so-called "Luther-text" (2017)
6 Wenn wir sagen, dass wir Gemeinschaft mit ihm haben, und wandeln doch in der Finsternis, so lügen wir und tun nicht die Wahrheit.
7 Wenn wir aber im Licht wandeln, wie er im Licht ist, so haben wir Gemeinschaft untereinander, und das Blut Jesu, seines Sohnes, macht uns rein von aller Sünde.
8 Wenn wir sagen, wir haben keine Sünde, so betrügen wir uns selbst, und die Wahrheit ist nicht in uns.
9 Wenn wir aber unsre Sünden bekennen, so ist er treu und gerecht, dass er uns die Sünden vergibt und reinigt uns von aller Ungerechtigkeit.
10 Wenn wir sagen, wir haben nicht gesündigt, so machen wir ihn zum Lügner, und sein Wort ist nicht in uns.
Luther himself wrote it different than the 1912 version in 1545:
6 So wir sa [383a] gen / das wir Gemeinschafft mit jm haben /vnd wandeln im finsternis / So liegen wir / vnd thun nicht die warheit.
7 So wir aber im Liecht wandeln /wie er im liecht ist / So haben wir gemeinschafft vnternander / Vnd das blut Jhesu Christi seines Sons /machet vns rein von aller sünde.
8 So wir sagen / Wir haben keine sünde / So verfüren wir vns selbs / vnd die warheit ist nicht in vns.
9 So wir aber vnsere sünde bekennen / so ist er trew vnd gerecht / das er vns die sünde vergibt / vnd reiniget vns von aller vntugent.
10 So wir sagen / wir haben nicht gesündiget / So machen wir jn zum Lügener / vnd sein wort ist nicht in vns.
That explains two things: even German readers are now rather unfamiliar with this construction,
and an old dictionary even gives 1 Joh as an example for
wie conditionales wenn: […] 1 Joh. 4, 20; dafur jr sagen soltet, so der herr wil, und wir leben, wollen wir dis oder das thun
add a comment |
The ESV passage
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Is indeed rendered quite differently if you compare it to the recent version of the so-called "Luther-text" (2017)
6 Wenn wir sagen, dass wir Gemeinschaft mit ihm haben, und wandeln doch in der Finsternis, so lügen wir und tun nicht die Wahrheit.
7 Wenn wir aber im Licht wandeln, wie er im Licht ist, so haben wir Gemeinschaft untereinander, und das Blut Jesu, seines Sohnes, macht uns rein von aller Sünde.
8 Wenn wir sagen, wir haben keine Sünde, so betrügen wir uns selbst, und die Wahrheit ist nicht in uns.
9 Wenn wir aber unsre Sünden bekennen, so ist er treu und gerecht, dass er uns die Sünden vergibt und reinigt uns von aller Ungerechtigkeit.
10 Wenn wir sagen, wir haben nicht gesündigt, so machen wir ihn zum Lügner, und sein Wort ist nicht in uns.
Luther himself wrote it different than the 1912 version in 1545:
6 So wir sa [383a] gen / das wir Gemeinschafft mit jm haben /vnd wandeln im finsternis / So liegen wir / vnd thun nicht die warheit.
7 So wir aber im Liecht wandeln /wie er im liecht ist / So haben wir gemeinschafft vnternander / Vnd das blut Jhesu Christi seines Sons /machet vns rein von aller sünde.
8 So wir sagen / Wir haben keine sünde / So verfüren wir vns selbs / vnd die warheit ist nicht in vns.
9 So wir aber vnsere sünde bekennen / so ist er trew vnd gerecht / das er vns die sünde vergibt / vnd reiniget vns von aller vntugent.
10 So wir sagen / wir haben nicht gesündiget / So machen wir jn zum Lügener / vnd sein wort ist nicht in vns.
That explains two things: even German readers are now rather unfamiliar with this construction,
and an old dictionary even gives 1 Joh as an example for
wie conditionales wenn: […] 1 Joh. 4, 20; dafur jr sagen soltet, so der herr wil, und wir leben, wollen wir dis oder das thun
The ESV passage
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Is indeed rendered quite differently if you compare it to the recent version of the so-called "Luther-text" (2017)
6 Wenn wir sagen, dass wir Gemeinschaft mit ihm haben, und wandeln doch in der Finsternis, so lügen wir und tun nicht die Wahrheit.
7 Wenn wir aber im Licht wandeln, wie er im Licht ist, so haben wir Gemeinschaft untereinander, und das Blut Jesu, seines Sohnes, macht uns rein von aller Sünde.
8 Wenn wir sagen, wir haben keine Sünde, so betrügen wir uns selbst, und die Wahrheit ist nicht in uns.
9 Wenn wir aber unsre Sünden bekennen, so ist er treu und gerecht, dass er uns die Sünden vergibt und reinigt uns von aller Ungerechtigkeit.
10 Wenn wir sagen, wir haben nicht gesündigt, so machen wir ihn zum Lügner, und sein Wort ist nicht in uns.
Luther himself wrote it different than the 1912 version in 1545:
6 So wir sa [383a] gen / das wir Gemeinschafft mit jm haben /vnd wandeln im finsternis / So liegen wir / vnd thun nicht die warheit.
7 So wir aber im Liecht wandeln /wie er im liecht ist / So haben wir gemeinschafft vnternander / Vnd das blut Jhesu Christi seines Sons /machet vns rein von aller sünde.
8 So wir sagen / Wir haben keine sünde / So verfüren wir vns selbs / vnd die warheit ist nicht in vns.
9 So wir aber vnsere sünde bekennen / so ist er trew vnd gerecht / das er vns die sünde vergibt / vnd reiniget vns von aller vntugent.
10 So wir sagen / wir haben nicht gesündiget / So machen wir jn zum Lügener / vnd sein wort ist nicht in vns.
That explains two things: even German readers are now rather unfamiliar with this construction,
and an old dictionary even gives 1 Joh as an example for
wie conditionales wenn: […] 1 Joh. 4, 20; dafur jr sagen soltet, so der herr wil, und wir leben, wollen wir dis oder das thun
answered Mar 19 at 23:29
LangLangCLangLangC
5,45311141
5,45311141
add a comment |
add a comment |
mbm29414 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
mbm29414 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
mbm29414 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
mbm29414 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Thanks for contributing an answer to German Language Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fgerman.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f50208%2fwhat-is-the-meaning-of-so-in-1-john-in-luther-s-bible-1912%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
12
You should be aware that the German used in the Luther-Bible is often a bit old-fashioned or even outdated, compared to modern standard German. If you just want to read the Bible in German, go ahead, but if your goal is to polish and/or improve your German, I'd recommend working with modern literature/movies etc as well.
– Arsak
Mar 19 at 12:26
You can imagine it being a short form of "sofern", and could translate it as "so far as..." or perhaps "insofar as ..."; that may make it more understandable how "so" could have a conditional function.
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 19 at 12:41
1
... or use a more recent translation, such as the Einheitsübersetzung.
– PMF
Mar 19 at 14:01
3
Möge er nur sprechen wie Luther es in der Bibel that! Der Effekt wäre fürwahr ein trefflicher!
– Christian Geiselmann
Mar 19 at 19:34
2
To elaborate on the comment from @Arsak, you are making a mistake when you are referring to a 1912 Luther Bible. 1912 probably refers to the date it was printed. The Luther Bible is to Germany as the King James version is to the English-language realm, except that it is about 200 years older than the KJ Bible. Martin Luther actually translated it in 1534, just a few years after Columbus. There have been minor updates since then, but only enough to keep it from being incomprehensible. Using a nearly 500-year-old text is probably not your best choice if you are trying to learn the language.
– Kevin Keane
Mar 20 at 5:33