Plural noun or singular noun + possessive
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When the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was ratified on July 9, 1868 —150 years ago this Monday — it closed the door on schemes that aimed to make the U.S. a white man’s country. (source)
I wonder why it is not "a white men's country". We often speak of men's clothes and men's room. Consider:
This is the only large dogs' shelter in the area.
This is the only large dog's shelter in the area.
Which one sounds more natural or idiomatic?
grammatical-number possessives
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When the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was ratified on July 9, 1868 —150 years ago this Monday — it closed the door on schemes that aimed to make the U.S. a white man’s country. (source)
I wonder why it is not "a white men's country". We often speak of men's clothes and men's room. Consider:
This is the only large dogs' shelter in the area.
This is the only large dog's shelter in the area.
Which one sounds more natural or idiomatic?
grammatical-number possessives
bumped to the homepage by Community♦ 4 mins ago
This question has answers that may be good or bad; the system has marked it active so that they can be reviewed.
2
... only large dog shelter...
– Jim
Sep 12 '18 at 3:40
@Jim Right, not the best example, since attributive nouns also work in that example. Trying to come up with a better one.
– user280704
Sep 12 '18 at 4:09
I recommend you use the same construction in the secondary example, i.e. "This is a large dogs' shelter" vs "this is a large dog's shelter". Otherwise, you're complicating the question...
– Chappo
Sep 12 '18 at 11:12
It's a rich man's world, the working man's blues, poor man's poison, and so on.
– Matt
Sep 13 '18 at 22:59
1
Dog's vs. dogs' might not be the best example even if we really did say dog(')s(') shelter, because they're pronounced equivalently, so you won't get the same sort of strong native-speaker intuitions that you get with an example like man's vs. men's.
– ruakh
Sep 14 '18 at 1:52
add a comment |
When the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was ratified on July 9, 1868 —150 years ago this Monday — it closed the door on schemes that aimed to make the U.S. a white man’s country. (source)
I wonder why it is not "a white men's country". We often speak of men's clothes and men's room. Consider:
This is the only large dogs' shelter in the area.
This is the only large dog's shelter in the area.
Which one sounds more natural or idiomatic?
grammatical-number possessives
When the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was ratified on July 9, 1868 —150 years ago this Monday — it closed the door on schemes that aimed to make the U.S. a white man’s country. (source)
I wonder why it is not "a white men's country". We often speak of men's clothes and men's room. Consider:
This is the only large dogs' shelter in the area.
This is the only large dog's shelter in the area.
Which one sounds more natural or idiomatic?
grammatical-number possessives
grammatical-number possessives
asked Sep 12 '18 at 3:38
user280704
bumped to the homepage by Community♦ 4 mins ago
This question has answers that may be good or bad; the system has marked it active so that they can be reviewed.
bumped to the homepage by Community♦ 4 mins ago
This question has answers that may be good or bad; the system has marked it active so that they can be reviewed.
2
... only large dog shelter...
– Jim
Sep 12 '18 at 3:40
@Jim Right, not the best example, since attributive nouns also work in that example. Trying to come up with a better one.
– user280704
Sep 12 '18 at 4:09
I recommend you use the same construction in the secondary example, i.e. "This is a large dogs' shelter" vs "this is a large dog's shelter". Otherwise, you're complicating the question...
– Chappo
Sep 12 '18 at 11:12
It's a rich man's world, the working man's blues, poor man's poison, and so on.
– Matt
Sep 13 '18 at 22:59
1
Dog's vs. dogs' might not be the best example even if we really did say dog(')s(') shelter, because they're pronounced equivalently, so you won't get the same sort of strong native-speaker intuitions that you get with an example like man's vs. men's.
– ruakh
Sep 14 '18 at 1:52
add a comment |
2
... only large dog shelter...
– Jim
Sep 12 '18 at 3:40
@Jim Right, not the best example, since attributive nouns also work in that example. Trying to come up with a better one.
– user280704
Sep 12 '18 at 4:09
I recommend you use the same construction in the secondary example, i.e. "This is a large dogs' shelter" vs "this is a large dog's shelter". Otherwise, you're complicating the question...
– Chappo
Sep 12 '18 at 11:12
It's a rich man's world, the working man's blues, poor man's poison, and so on.
– Matt
Sep 13 '18 at 22:59
1
Dog's vs. dogs' might not be the best example even if we really did say dog(')s(') shelter, because they're pronounced equivalently, so you won't get the same sort of strong native-speaker intuitions that you get with an example like man's vs. men's.
– ruakh
Sep 14 '18 at 1:52
2
2
... only large dog shelter...
– Jim
Sep 12 '18 at 3:40
... only large dog shelter...
– Jim
Sep 12 '18 at 3:40
@Jim Right, not the best example, since attributive nouns also work in that example. Trying to come up with a better one.
– user280704
Sep 12 '18 at 4:09
@Jim Right, not the best example, since attributive nouns also work in that example. Trying to come up with a better one.
– user280704
Sep 12 '18 at 4:09
I recommend you use the same construction in the secondary example, i.e. "This is a large dogs' shelter" vs "this is a large dog's shelter". Otherwise, you're complicating the question...
– Chappo
Sep 12 '18 at 11:12
I recommend you use the same construction in the secondary example, i.e. "This is a large dogs' shelter" vs "this is a large dog's shelter". Otherwise, you're complicating the question...
– Chappo
Sep 12 '18 at 11:12
It's a rich man's world, the working man's blues, poor man's poison, and so on.
– Matt
Sep 13 '18 at 22:59
It's a rich man's world, the working man's blues, poor man's poison, and so on.
– Matt
Sep 13 '18 at 22:59
1
1
Dog's vs. dogs' might not be the best example even if we really did say dog(')s(') shelter, because they're pronounced equivalently, so you won't get the same sort of strong native-speaker intuitions that you get with an example like man's vs. men's.
– ruakh
Sep 14 '18 at 1:52
Dog's vs. dogs' might not be the best example even if we really did say dog(')s(') shelter, because they're pronounced equivalently, so you won't get the same sort of strong native-speaker intuitions that you get with an example like man's vs. men's.
– ruakh
Sep 14 '18 at 1:52
add a comment |
1 Answer
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It's standard usage to say "a white man's country", whereas it would be unusual to say "a white men's country", since the expectation is that an indefinite article is followed by a singular noun.
In this particular context there's a further complication in that it's ambiguous whether the indefinite article relates to "man" (in other words, it's a country belonging to the white man) or to "country" (in which "white man's" or "white men's" acts as adjectival phrases). In the former construction, "a white men's" would be ungrammatical, whereas in the latter construction it would be perfectly fine grammatically. Such ambiguity is sometimes avoided by hyphenating the words in the adjectival phrase: "a white-man's country" or "a white-men's country".
Note that while the non-gendered expression "a white person's country" is often preferable as it's more inclusive, in this particular historical context the gendered usage could be seen as appropriate.
It would be grammatically correct to delete the indefinite article and use the plural - "schemes that aimed to make the U.S. white men’s country" - but this is not a common construction. If you were intent on using the plural men, "schemes that aimed to make the U.S. a country for white men" would be a suitable alternative.
answered Sep 12 '18 at 11:03
ChappoChappo
2,93251425
add a comment |
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It's standard usage to say "a white man's country", whereas it would be unusual to say "a white men's country", since the expectation is that an indefinite article is followed by a singular noun.
In this particular context there's a further complication in that it's ambiguous whether the indefinite article relates to "man" (in other words, it's a country belonging to the white man) or to "country" (in which "white man's" or "white men's" acts as adjectival phrases). In the former construction, "a white men's" would be ungrammatical, whereas in the latter construction it would be perfectly fine grammatically. Such ambiguity is sometimes avoided by hyphenating the words in the adjectival phrase: "a white-man's country" or "a white-men's country".
Note that while the non-gendered expression "a white person's country" is often preferable as it's more inclusive, in this particular historical context the gendered usage could be seen as appropriate.
It would be grammatically correct to delete the indefinite article and use the plural - "schemes that aimed to make the U.S. white men’s country" - but this is not a common construction. If you were intent on using the plural men, "schemes that aimed to make the U.S. a country for white men" would be a suitable alternative.
answered Sep 12 '18 at 11:03
ChappoChappo
2,93251425
add a comment |
It's standard usage to say "a white man's country", whereas it would be unusual to say "a white men's country", since the expectation is that an indefinite article is followed by a singular noun.
In this particular context there's a further complication in that it's ambiguous whether the indefinite article relates to "man" (in other words, it's a country belonging to the white man) or to "country" (in which "white man's" or "white men's" acts as adjectival phrases). In the former construction, "a white men's" would be ungrammatical, whereas in the latter construction it would be perfectly fine grammatically. Such ambiguity is sometimes avoided by hyphenating the words in the adjectival phrase: "a white-man's country" or "a white-men's country".
Note that while the non-gendered expression "a white person's country" is often preferable as it's more inclusive, in this particular historical context the gendered usage could be seen as appropriate.
It would be grammatically correct to delete the indefinite article and use the plural - "schemes that aimed to make the U.S. white men’s country" - but this is not a common construction. If you were intent on using the plural men, "schemes that aimed to make the U.S. a country for white men" would be a suitable alternative.
answered Sep 12 '18 at 11:03
ChappoChappo
2,93251425
add a comment |
It's standard usage to say "a white man's country", whereas it would be unusual to say "a white men's country", since the expectation is that an indefinite article is followed by a singular noun.
In this particular context there's a further complication in that it's ambiguous whether the indefinite article relates to "man" (in other words, it's a country belonging to the white man) or to "country" (in which "white man's" or "white men's" acts as adjectival phrases). In the former construction, "a white men's" would be ungrammatical, whereas in the latter construction it would be perfectly fine grammatically. Such ambiguity is sometimes avoided by hyphenating the words in the adjectival phrase: "a white-man's country" or "a white-men's country".
Note that while the non-gendered expression "a white person's country" is often preferable as it's more inclusive, in this particular historical context the gendered usage could be seen as appropriate.
It would be grammatically correct to delete the indefinite article and use the plural - "schemes that aimed to make the U.S. white men’s country" - but this is not a common construction. If you were intent on using the plural men, "schemes that aimed to make the U.S. a country for white men" would be a suitable alternative.
answered Sep 12 '18 at 11:03
ChappoChappo
2,93251425
It's standard usage to say "a white man's country", whereas it would be unusual to say "a white men's country", since the expectation is that an indefinite article is followed by a singular noun.
In this particular context there's a further complication in that it's ambiguous whether the indefinite article relates to "man" (in other words, it's a country belonging to the white man) or to "country" (in which "white man's" or "white men's" acts as adjectival phrases). In the former construction, "a white men's" would be ungrammatical, whereas in the latter construction it would be perfectly fine grammatically. Such ambiguity is sometimes avoided by hyphenating the words in the adjectival phrase: "a white-man's country" or "a white-men's country".
Note that while the non-gendered expression "a white person's country" is often preferable as it's more inclusive, in this particular historical context the gendered usage could be seen as appropriate.
It would be grammatically correct to delete the indefinite article and use the plural - "schemes that aimed to make the U.S. white men’s country" - but this is not a common construction. If you were intent on using the plural men, "schemes that aimed to make the U.S. a country for white men" would be a suitable alternative.
answered Sep 12 '18 at 11:03
ChappoChappo
2,93251425
edited Sep 13 '18 at 22:49
answered Sep 12 '18 at 11:03
ChappoChappo
2,93251425
answered Sep 12 '18 at 11:03
ChappoChappo
2,93251425
answered Sep 12 '18 at 11:03
ChappoChappo
2,93251425
2,93251425
add a comment |
add a comment |
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2
... only large dog shelter...
– Jim
Sep 12 '18 at 3:40
@Jim Right, not the best example, since attributive nouns also work in that example. Trying to come up with a better one.
– user280704
Sep 12 '18 at 4:09
I recommend you use the same construction in the secondary example, i.e. "This is a large dogs' shelter" vs "this is a large dog's shelter". Otherwise, you're complicating the question...
– Chappo
Sep 12 '18 at 11:12
It's a rich man's world, the working man's blues, poor man's poison, and so on.
– Matt
Sep 13 '18 at 22:59
1
Dog's vs. dogs' might not be the best example even if we really did say dog(')s(') shelter, because they're pronounced equivalently, so you won't get the same sort of strong native-speaker intuitions that you get with an example like man's vs. men's.
– ruakh
Sep 14 '18 at 1:52