Why does standard notation not preserve intervals (visually)












4















(Disclaimer: I don't know much about music theory but ...)



The notes A, B are a whole step apart, and B, C are a semitone apart, yet their distance in standard notation is the same visually (from a space to a line, ... etc). Why ?



It's unnecessarily difficult to identify intervals like fifths or thirds. Is it just a historical accident or is there a deeper reason behind it ?










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  • Possible duplicate of Why is C the base note of standard notation and keys?

    – Carl Witthoft
    53 mins ago






  • 1





    I'm asking about intervals, not why C is the base note.

    – SigmaPhi
    51 mins ago











  • You shouldn't be identifying intervals by spatial separation in the first place. You'll have just as many errors w/ accidentals as you are attempting to avoid here. The reason for standard notation is to make it easy to play, not to "analyze"

    – Carl Witthoft
    51 mins ago











  • I would hope there's enough information at the linked question to provide you with, if nothing else, hints as to existing books on music notation and history.

    – Carl Witthoft
    50 mins ago











  • I guess my intent with the intervals was phrased badly. What i intended was, wouldn't it be easier to identify chords of the same type (ex: minor chords, Am, Fm, etc ... would all look the same but just moved up or down, instead of only some having sharps/flats and some not) and other things aswell. Anyway, I'll have a look at the sources you gave.

    – SigmaPhi
    44 mins ago


















4















(Disclaimer: I don't know much about music theory but ...)



The notes A, B are a whole step apart, and B, C are a semitone apart, yet their distance in standard notation is the same visually (from a space to a line, ... etc). Why ?



It's unnecessarily difficult to identify intervals like fifths or thirds. Is it just a historical accident or is there a deeper reason behind it ?










share|improve this question









New contributor




SigmaPhi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





















  • Possible duplicate of Why is C the base note of standard notation and keys?

    – Carl Witthoft
    53 mins ago






  • 1





    I'm asking about intervals, not why C is the base note.

    – SigmaPhi
    51 mins ago











  • You shouldn't be identifying intervals by spatial separation in the first place. You'll have just as many errors w/ accidentals as you are attempting to avoid here. The reason for standard notation is to make it easy to play, not to "analyze"

    – Carl Witthoft
    51 mins ago











  • I would hope there's enough information at the linked question to provide you with, if nothing else, hints as to existing books on music notation and history.

    – Carl Witthoft
    50 mins ago











  • I guess my intent with the intervals was phrased badly. What i intended was, wouldn't it be easier to identify chords of the same type (ex: minor chords, Am, Fm, etc ... would all look the same but just moved up or down, instead of only some having sharps/flats and some not) and other things aswell. Anyway, I'll have a look at the sources you gave.

    – SigmaPhi
    44 mins ago
















4












4








4








(Disclaimer: I don't know much about music theory but ...)



The notes A, B are a whole step apart, and B, C are a semitone apart, yet their distance in standard notation is the same visually (from a space to a line, ... etc). Why ?



It's unnecessarily difficult to identify intervals like fifths or thirds. Is it just a historical accident or is there a deeper reason behind it ?










share|improve this question









New contributor




SigmaPhi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












(Disclaimer: I don't know much about music theory but ...)



The notes A, B are a whole step apart, and B, C are a semitone apart, yet their distance in standard notation is the same visually (from a space to a line, ... etc). Why ?



It's unnecessarily difficult to identify intervals like fifths or thirds. Is it just a historical accident or is there a deeper reason behind it ?







theory notation






share|improve this question









New contributor




SigmaPhi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question









New contributor




SigmaPhi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 26 mins ago







SigmaPhi













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asked 59 mins ago









SigmaPhiSigmaPhi

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New contributor




SigmaPhi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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New contributor





SigmaPhi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






SigmaPhi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.













  • Possible duplicate of Why is C the base note of standard notation and keys?

    – Carl Witthoft
    53 mins ago






  • 1





    I'm asking about intervals, not why C is the base note.

    – SigmaPhi
    51 mins ago











  • You shouldn't be identifying intervals by spatial separation in the first place. You'll have just as many errors w/ accidentals as you are attempting to avoid here. The reason for standard notation is to make it easy to play, not to "analyze"

    – Carl Witthoft
    51 mins ago











  • I would hope there's enough information at the linked question to provide you with, if nothing else, hints as to existing books on music notation and history.

    – Carl Witthoft
    50 mins ago











  • I guess my intent with the intervals was phrased badly. What i intended was, wouldn't it be easier to identify chords of the same type (ex: minor chords, Am, Fm, etc ... would all look the same but just moved up or down, instead of only some having sharps/flats and some not) and other things aswell. Anyway, I'll have a look at the sources you gave.

    – SigmaPhi
    44 mins ago





















  • Possible duplicate of Why is C the base note of standard notation and keys?

    – Carl Witthoft
    53 mins ago






  • 1





    I'm asking about intervals, not why C is the base note.

    – SigmaPhi
    51 mins ago











  • You shouldn't be identifying intervals by spatial separation in the first place. You'll have just as many errors w/ accidentals as you are attempting to avoid here. The reason for standard notation is to make it easy to play, not to "analyze"

    – Carl Witthoft
    51 mins ago











  • I would hope there's enough information at the linked question to provide you with, if nothing else, hints as to existing books on music notation and history.

    – Carl Witthoft
    50 mins ago











  • I guess my intent with the intervals was phrased badly. What i intended was, wouldn't it be easier to identify chords of the same type (ex: minor chords, Am, Fm, etc ... would all look the same but just moved up or down, instead of only some having sharps/flats and some not) and other things aswell. Anyway, I'll have a look at the sources you gave.

    – SigmaPhi
    44 mins ago



















Possible duplicate of Why is C the base note of standard notation and keys?

– Carl Witthoft
53 mins ago





Possible duplicate of Why is C the base note of standard notation and keys?

– Carl Witthoft
53 mins ago




1




1





I'm asking about intervals, not why C is the base note.

– SigmaPhi
51 mins ago





I'm asking about intervals, not why C is the base note.

– SigmaPhi
51 mins ago













You shouldn't be identifying intervals by spatial separation in the first place. You'll have just as many errors w/ accidentals as you are attempting to avoid here. The reason for standard notation is to make it easy to play, not to "analyze"

– Carl Witthoft
51 mins ago





You shouldn't be identifying intervals by spatial separation in the first place. You'll have just as many errors w/ accidentals as you are attempting to avoid here. The reason for standard notation is to make it easy to play, not to "analyze"

– Carl Witthoft
51 mins ago













I would hope there's enough information at the linked question to provide you with, if nothing else, hints as to existing books on music notation and history.

– Carl Witthoft
50 mins ago





I would hope there's enough information at the linked question to provide you with, if nothing else, hints as to existing books on music notation and history.

– Carl Witthoft
50 mins ago













I guess my intent with the intervals was phrased badly. What i intended was, wouldn't it be easier to identify chords of the same type (ex: minor chords, Am, Fm, etc ... would all look the same but just moved up or down, instead of only some having sharps/flats and some not) and other things aswell. Anyway, I'll have a look at the sources you gave.

– SigmaPhi
44 mins ago







I guess my intent with the intervals was phrased badly. What i intended was, wouldn't it be easier to identify chords of the same type (ex: minor chords, Am, Fm, etc ... would all look the same but just moved up or down, instead of only some having sharps/flats and some not) and other things aswell. Anyway, I'll have a look at the sources you gave.

– SigmaPhi
44 mins ago












3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















7














It DOES preserve intervals (visually). What it does NOT tell you is whether those intervals are major or minor (or augmented or diminished). The distance of a space to its adjacent line will always be a second of some sort. This is because in part of history (which requires a discussion of Church modes and the history of notation), and partly because the notes on the staff change depending on what clef I give it as well as what key signature I give it. I will always know that a line to the next line, or a space to the next space, will be a third of some sort, but I only know what kind of third (and also what the notes are) if I am given more information, namely clef and key signature.






share|improve this answer



















  • 1





    How can a different clef affect anything except which notes are where?

    – Tim
    9 mins ago











  • Because the notes decide whether the intervals are major/minor/aug/dim. From the center line on the staff to the first space above it always measures a second. In treble clef, it's a minor second (B -> C), but in bass and alto clef it's a major second (D -> E and C -> D respectively). If we change the key sig to, for example, A major, the previous intervals become a major second (B -> C#), major second (D -> E), and minor second (C# -> D).

    – LSM07
    2 mins ago



















3














It's actually easier to find 3rds and 5ths. 3rds are on the next line or space, and 5ths are on the next but one. As in F is on bottom space in treble clef, A (3rd higher) is on the next space. In key E, with 4#, E is on the bottom line, G# (3rd) is on the nexy line up, and B (5th) is on the next line up from that. (Next but one from E). Once the key signature is established - it's at the beginning of each line - there's no problem. I think if there was always a problem for the last few hundred years, something would have been changed.






share|improve this answer
























  • I'm not saying that its a huge issue; more rather it's missed a chance to make the intervals visually uniform (including the sharps and flats).

    – SigmaPhi
    35 mins ago













  • "...if there was a ... problem for the last few hundred years..." hah. Have you seen how humanity solves other long-standing problems? :-( .

    – Carl Witthoft
    34 mins ago






  • 1





    @CarlWitthoft - ah, but musos, being part of deity rather than humanity, work at a different level...

    – Tim
    27 mins ago



















2














A shallow answer as to why standard notation does not preserve intervals visually in terms of numbers of semitones is that modern standard notation evolved around the ideas that:




  • the octave is split into 12 identifiable notes, each a semitone apart

  • every particular piece of music would be based around a diatonic scale, which represents a 7-note subset of those 12 identifiable notes in the octave in a particular pattern which itself has uneven sizes of intervals.


The stave in standard notation without a key signature depicts the C major scale and its modes (all of which are Diatonic scales). Adding a key signature allows it to depict other diatonic scales, and the use of accidentals allows all possibilities in the 12-note (chromatic) scale.






share|improve this answer























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    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    7














    It DOES preserve intervals (visually). What it does NOT tell you is whether those intervals are major or minor (or augmented or diminished). The distance of a space to its adjacent line will always be a second of some sort. This is because in part of history (which requires a discussion of Church modes and the history of notation), and partly because the notes on the staff change depending on what clef I give it as well as what key signature I give it. I will always know that a line to the next line, or a space to the next space, will be a third of some sort, but I only know what kind of third (and also what the notes are) if I am given more information, namely clef and key signature.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 1





      How can a different clef affect anything except which notes are where?

      – Tim
      9 mins ago











    • Because the notes decide whether the intervals are major/minor/aug/dim. From the center line on the staff to the first space above it always measures a second. In treble clef, it's a minor second (B -> C), but in bass and alto clef it's a major second (D -> E and C -> D respectively). If we change the key sig to, for example, A major, the previous intervals become a major second (B -> C#), major second (D -> E), and minor second (C# -> D).

      – LSM07
      2 mins ago
















    7














    It DOES preserve intervals (visually). What it does NOT tell you is whether those intervals are major or minor (or augmented or diminished). The distance of a space to its adjacent line will always be a second of some sort. This is because in part of history (which requires a discussion of Church modes and the history of notation), and partly because the notes on the staff change depending on what clef I give it as well as what key signature I give it. I will always know that a line to the next line, or a space to the next space, will be a third of some sort, but I only know what kind of third (and also what the notes are) if I am given more information, namely clef and key signature.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 1





      How can a different clef affect anything except which notes are where?

      – Tim
      9 mins ago











    • Because the notes decide whether the intervals are major/minor/aug/dim. From the center line on the staff to the first space above it always measures a second. In treble clef, it's a minor second (B -> C), but in bass and alto clef it's a major second (D -> E and C -> D respectively). If we change the key sig to, for example, A major, the previous intervals become a major second (B -> C#), major second (D -> E), and minor second (C# -> D).

      – LSM07
      2 mins ago














    7












    7








    7







    It DOES preserve intervals (visually). What it does NOT tell you is whether those intervals are major or minor (or augmented or diminished). The distance of a space to its adjacent line will always be a second of some sort. This is because in part of history (which requires a discussion of Church modes and the history of notation), and partly because the notes on the staff change depending on what clef I give it as well as what key signature I give it. I will always know that a line to the next line, or a space to the next space, will be a third of some sort, but I only know what kind of third (and also what the notes are) if I am given more information, namely clef and key signature.






    share|improve this answer













    It DOES preserve intervals (visually). What it does NOT tell you is whether those intervals are major or minor (or augmented or diminished). The distance of a space to its adjacent line will always be a second of some sort. This is because in part of history (which requires a discussion of Church modes and the history of notation), and partly because the notes on the staff change depending on what clef I give it as well as what key signature I give it. I will always know that a line to the next line, or a space to the next space, will be a third of some sort, but I only know what kind of third (and also what the notes are) if I am given more information, namely clef and key signature.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 40 mins ago









    LSM07LSM07

    844413




    844413








    • 1





      How can a different clef affect anything except which notes are where?

      – Tim
      9 mins ago











    • Because the notes decide whether the intervals are major/minor/aug/dim. From the center line on the staff to the first space above it always measures a second. In treble clef, it's a minor second (B -> C), but in bass and alto clef it's a major second (D -> E and C -> D respectively). If we change the key sig to, for example, A major, the previous intervals become a major second (B -> C#), major second (D -> E), and minor second (C# -> D).

      – LSM07
      2 mins ago














    • 1





      How can a different clef affect anything except which notes are where?

      – Tim
      9 mins ago











    • Because the notes decide whether the intervals are major/minor/aug/dim. From the center line on the staff to the first space above it always measures a second. In treble clef, it's a minor second (B -> C), but in bass and alto clef it's a major second (D -> E and C -> D respectively). If we change the key sig to, for example, A major, the previous intervals become a major second (B -> C#), major second (D -> E), and minor second (C# -> D).

      – LSM07
      2 mins ago








    1




    1





    How can a different clef affect anything except which notes are where?

    – Tim
    9 mins ago





    How can a different clef affect anything except which notes are where?

    – Tim
    9 mins ago













    Because the notes decide whether the intervals are major/minor/aug/dim. From the center line on the staff to the first space above it always measures a second. In treble clef, it's a minor second (B -> C), but in bass and alto clef it's a major second (D -> E and C -> D respectively). If we change the key sig to, for example, A major, the previous intervals become a major second (B -> C#), major second (D -> E), and minor second (C# -> D).

    – LSM07
    2 mins ago





    Because the notes decide whether the intervals are major/minor/aug/dim. From the center line on the staff to the first space above it always measures a second. In treble clef, it's a minor second (B -> C), but in bass and alto clef it's a major second (D -> E and C -> D respectively). If we change the key sig to, for example, A major, the previous intervals become a major second (B -> C#), major second (D -> E), and minor second (C# -> D).

    – LSM07
    2 mins ago











    3














    It's actually easier to find 3rds and 5ths. 3rds are on the next line or space, and 5ths are on the next but one. As in F is on bottom space in treble clef, A (3rd higher) is on the next space. In key E, with 4#, E is on the bottom line, G# (3rd) is on the nexy line up, and B (5th) is on the next line up from that. (Next but one from E). Once the key signature is established - it's at the beginning of each line - there's no problem. I think if there was always a problem for the last few hundred years, something would have been changed.






    share|improve this answer
























    • I'm not saying that its a huge issue; more rather it's missed a chance to make the intervals visually uniform (including the sharps and flats).

      – SigmaPhi
      35 mins ago













    • "...if there was a ... problem for the last few hundred years..." hah. Have you seen how humanity solves other long-standing problems? :-( .

      – Carl Witthoft
      34 mins ago






    • 1





      @CarlWitthoft - ah, but musos, being part of deity rather than humanity, work at a different level...

      – Tim
      27 mins ago
















    3














    It's actually easier to find 3rds and 5ths. 3rds are on the next line or space, and 5ths are on the next but one. As in F is on bottom space in treble clef, A (3rd higher) is on the next space. In key E, with 4#, E is on the bottom line, G# (3rd) is on the nexy line up, and B (5th) is on the next line up from that. (Next but one from E). Once the key signature is established - it's at the beginning of each line - there's no problem. I think if there was always a problem for the last few hundred years, something would have been changed.






    share|improve this answer
























    • I'm not saying that its a huge issue; more rather it's missed a chance to make the intervals visually uniform (including the sharps and flats).

      – SigmaPhi
      35 mins ago













    • "...if there was a ... problem for the last few hundred years..." hah. Have you seen how humanity solves other long-standing problems? :-( .

      – Carl Witthoft
      34 mins ago






    • 1





      @CarlWitthoft - ah, but musos, being part of deity rather than humanity, work at a different level...

      – Tim
      27 mins ago














    3












    3








    3







    It's actually easier to find 3rds and 5ths. 3rds are on the next line or space, and 5ths are on the next but one. As in F is on bottom space in treble clef, A (3rd higher) is on the next space. In key E, with 4#, E is on the bottom line, G# (3rd) is on the nexy line up, and B (5th) is on the next line up from that. (Next but one from E). Once the key signature is established - it's at the beginning of each line - there's no problem. I think if there was always a problem for the last few hundred years, something would have been changed.






    share|improve this answer













    It's actually easier to find 3rds and 5ths. 3rds are on the next line or space, and 5ths are on the next but one. As in F is on bottom space in treble clef, A (3rd higher) is on the next space. In key E, with 4#, E is on the bottom line, G# (3rd) is on the nexy line up, and B (5th) is on the next line up from that. (Next but one from E). Once the key signature is established - it's at the beginning of each line - there's no problem. I think if there was always a problem for the last few hundred years, something would have been changed.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 46 mins ago









    TimTim

    104k10107261




    104k10107261













    • I'm not saying that its a huge issue; more rather it's missed a chance to make the intervals visually uniform (including the sharps and flats).

      – SigmaPhi
      35 mins ago













    • "...if there was a ... problem for the last few hundred years..." hah. Have you seen how humanity solves other long-standing problems? :-( .

      – Carl Witthoft
      34 mins ago






    • 1





      @CarlWitthoft - ah, but musos, being part of deity rather than humanity, work at a different level...

      – Tim
      27 mins ago



















    • I'm not saying that its a huge issue; more rather it's missed a chance to make the intervals visually uniform (including the sharps and flats).

      – SigmaPhi
      35 mins ago













    • "...if there was a ... problem for the last few hundred years..." hah. Have you seen how humanity solves other long-standing problems? :-( .

      – Carl Witthoft
      34 mins ago






    • 1





      @CarlWitthoft - ah, but musos, being part of deity rather than humanity, work at a different level...

      – Tim
      27 mins ago

















    I'm not saying that its a huge issue; more rather it's missed a chance to make the intervals visually uniform (including the sharps and flats).

    – SigmaPhi
    35 mins ago







    I'm not saying that its a huge issue; more rather it's missed a chance to make the intervals visually uniform (including the sharps and flats).

    – SigmaPhi
    35 mins ago















    "...if there was a ... problem for the last few hundred years..." hah. Have you seen how humanity solves other long-standing problems? :-( .

    – Carl Witthoft
    34 mins ago





    "...if there was a ... problem for the last few hundred years..." hah. Have you seen how humanity solves other long-standing problems? :-( .

    – Carl Witthoft
    34 mins ago




    1




    1





    @CarlWitthoft - ah, but musos, being part of deity rather than humanity, work at a different level...

    – Tim
    27 mins ago





    @CarlWitthoft - ah, but musos, being part of deity rather than humanity, work at a different level...

    – Tim
    27 mins ago











    2














    A shallow answer as to why standard notation does not preserve intervals visually in terms of numbers of semitones is that modern standard notation evolved around the ideas that:




    • the octave is split into 12 identifiable notes, each a semitone apart

    • every particular piece of music would be based around a diatonic scale, which represents a 7-note subset of those 12 identifiable notes in the octave in a particular pattern which itself has uneven sizes of intervals.


    The stave in standard notation without a key signature depicts the C major scale and its modes (all of which are Diatonic scales). Adding a key signature allows it to depict other diatonic scales, and the use of accidentals allows all possibilities in the 12-note (chromatic) scale.






    share|improve this answer




























      2














      A shallow answer as to why standard notation does not preserve intervals visually in terms of numbers of semitones is that modern standard notation evolved around the ideas that:




      • the octave is split into 12 identifiable notes, each a semitone apart

      • every particular piece of music would be based around a diatonic scale, which represents a 7-note subset of those 12 identifiable notes in the octave in a particular pattern which itself has uneven sizes of intervals.


      The stave in standard notation without a key signature depicts the C major scale and its modes (all of which are Diatonic scales). Adding a key signature allows it to depict other diatonic scales, and the use of accidentals allows all possibilities in the 12-note (chromatic) scale.






      share|improve this answer


























        2












        2








        2







        A shallow answer as to why standard notation does not preserve intervals visually in terms of numbers of semitones is that modern standard notation evolved around the ideas that:




        • the octave is split into 12 identifiable notes, each a semitone apart

        • every particular piece of music would be based around a diatonic scale, which represents a 7-note subset of those 12 identifiable notes in the octave in a particular pattern which itself has uneven sizes of intervals.


        The stave in standard notation without a key signature depicts the C major scale and its modes (all of which are Diatonic scales). Adding a key signature allows it to depict other diatonic scales, and the use of accidentals allows all possibilities in the 12-note (chromatic) scale.






        share|improve this answer













        A shallow answer as to why standard notation does not preserve intervals visually in terms of numbers of semitones is that modern standard notation evolved around the ideas that:




        • the octave is split into 12 identifiable notes, each a semitone apart

        • every particular piece of music would be based around a diatonic scale, which represents a 7-note subset of those 12 identifiable notes in the octave in a particular pattern which itself has uneven sizes of intervals.


        The stave in standard notation without a key signature depicts the C major scale and its modes (all of which are Diatonic scales). Adding a key signature allows it to depict other diatonic scales, and the use of accidentals allows all possibilities in the 12-note (chromatic) scale.







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