Does the Vanguard Style bonus stack with itself?












4












$begingroup$


The Vanguard Style feat states :




While using this style, when an adjacent ally is required to make a Reflex saving throw, you can expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s Reflex save. Your ally gains a +2 bonus to all Reflex saves while adjacent to you until the beginning of your next turn.




Unlike other effects based on attacks of opportunity and the aid another action, like Bodyguard, the target keeps the bonus until the vanguard's next turn beginning.



This bonus seems to be untyped and as stated about the Aid Another action in combat :




Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.




Does that mean that if an ally of a character using the Vanguard Style is required to make several Reflex saving throws during the same round, the user of the Vanguard Style can use it each time (with enough attacks of opportunity available) and, each time, the ally will obtain a cumulative +2 bonus on its Reflex save ?



I can't find anything wrong with this reasoning but the result seems rather strong to me, especially if a build improving the aid another bonuses is involved.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$

















    4












    $begingroup$


    The Vanguard Style feat states :




    While using this style, when an adjacent ally is required to make a Reflex saving throw, you can expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s Reflex save. Your ally gains a +2 bonus to all Reflex saves while adjacent to you until the beginning of your next turn.




    Unlike other effects based on attacks of opportunity and the aid another action, like Bodyguard, the target keeps the bonus until the vanguard's next turn beginning.



    This bonus seems to be untyped and as stated about the Aid Another action in combat :




    Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.




    Does that mean that if an ally of a character using the Vanguard Style is required to make several Reflex saving throws during the same round, the user of the Vanguard Style can use it each time (with enough attacks of opportunity available) and, each time, the ally will obtain a cumulative +2 bonus on its Reflex save ?



    I can't find anything wrong with this reasoning but the result seems rather strong to me, especially if a build improving the aid another bonuses is involved.










    share|improve this question











    $endgroup$















      4












      4








      4





      $begingroup$


      The Vanguard Style feat states :




      While using this style, when an adjacent ally is required to make a Reflex saving throw, you can expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s Reflex save. Your ally gains a +2 bonus to all Reflex saves while adjacent to you until the beginning of your next turn.




      Unlike other effects based on attacks of opportunity and the aid another action, like Bodyguard, the target keeps the bonus until the vanguard's next turn beginning.



      This bonus seems to be untyped and as stated about the Aid Another action in combat :




      Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.




      Does that mean that if an ally of a character using the Vanguard Style is required to make several Reflex saving throws during the same round, the user of the Vanguard Style can use it each time (with enough attacks of opportunity available) and, each time, the ally will obtain a cumulative +2 bonus on its Reflex save ?



      I can't find anything wrong with this reasoning but the result seems rather strong to me, especially if a build improving the aid another bonuses is involved.










      share|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      The Vanguard Style feat states :




      While using this style, when an adjacent ally is required to make a Reflex saving throw, you can expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s Reflex save. Your ally gains a +2 bonus to all Reflex saves while adjacent to you until the beginning of your next turn.




      Unlike other effects based on attacks of opportunity and the aid another action, like Bodyguard, the target keeps the bonus until the vanguard's next turn beginning.



      This bonus seems to be untyped and as stated about the Aid Another action in combat :




      Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.




      Does that mean that if an ally of a character using the Vanguard Style is required to make several Reflex saving throws during the same round, the user of the Vanguard Style can use it each time (with enough attacks of opportunity available) and, each time, the ally will obtain a cumulative +2 bonus on its Reflex save ?



      I can't find anything wrong with this reasoning but the result seems rather strong to me, especially if a build improving the aid another bonuses is involved.







      pathfinder feats saving-throw stacking






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 46 mins ago









      Sdjz

      13.7k466109




      13.7k466109










      asked 1 hour ago









      RopheRophe

      1257




      1257






















          1 Answer
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          5












          $begingroup$

          No, it cannot stack with itself



          Bonuses from the same source (feat, spell, class ability, racial ability, etc) will never stack with themselves, as clarified in the definition of Bonus:




          Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.



          The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.




          So, using the same feat twice will not grant it's bonus twice. Similarly, using the spell Bull's Strength twice (even if two different casters do it) will not grant a total of +8 to Strength.



          Unless said ability specifically says that it stacks, but those are rare. For example, the Fleet feat.



          As for being strong or not, I would rather not suggest allowing an exception and trust (with a grain of salt) that the developer who wrote it to decide if the feat balanced or not. There are feats with similar effects that call that they stack, and a bunch of Aid Another(-ish) type feats that do not stack, and the benefit of this feat is granting an ally the benefits of another feat for one round (Lightning Reflexes) which seems balanced (to me) for a feat. Especially if you consider that despite the requirement, you are not actually required to use a heavy shield (it could be a tower shield), and you could grant the Vanguard Style bonus to multiple allies against a single area attack.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            (Of course, this answer is correct, but the answer may also want to dispel the misconception that were the bonuses to stack that the benefit would be overpowered. I mean, really, being adjacent to a buddy when a buddy needs to make a Ref save is atypical, being forced to make several Ref saves during a round is rare, and getting an increasingly bigger bonus to one's Ref save for 1 round typically isn't a big deal. A dude's just not gonna break the game by briefly giving his buddy a really high Ref save!)
            $endgroup$
            – Hey I Can Chan
            1 hour ago










          • $begingroup$
            I would not have gone so far as to say that this is gamebreaking and I agree this kind of situation is unusual, however if it would have worked, some strange tactics could have emerge from it, like a "buffing" friendly fire.
            $endgroup$
            – Rophe
            45 mins ago











          Your Answer





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          1 Answer
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          1 Answer
          1






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          active

          oldest

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          5












          $begingroup$

          No, it cannot stack with itself



          Bonuses from the same source (feat, spell, class ability, racial ability, etc) will never stack with themselves, as clarified in the definition of Bonus:




          Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.



          The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.




          So, using the same feat twice will not grant it's bonus twice. Similarly, using the spell Bull's Strength twice (even if two different casters do it) will not grant a total of +8 to Strength.



          Unless said ability specifically says that it stacks, but those are rare. For example, the Fleet feat.



          As for being strong or not, I would rather not suggest allowing an exception and trust (with a grain of salt) that the developer who wrote it to decide if the feat balanced or not. There are feats with similar effects that call that they stack, and a bunch of Aid Another(-ish) type feats that do not stack, and the benefit of this feat is granting an ally the benefits of another feat for one round (Lightning Reflexes) which seems balanced (to me) for a feat. Especially if you consider that despite the requirement, you are not actually required to use a heavy shield (it could be a tower shield), and you could grant the Vanguard Style bonus to multiple allies against a single area attack.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            (Of course, this answer is correct, but the answer may also want to dispel the misconception that were the bonuses to stack that the benefit would be overpowered. I mean, really, being adjacent to a buddy when a buddy needs to make a Ref save is atypical, being forced to make several Ref saves during a round is rare, and getting an increasingly bigger bonus to one's Ref save for 1 round typically isn't a big deal. A dude's just not gonna break the game by briefly giving his buddy a really high Ref save!)
            $endgroup$
            – Hey I Can Chan
            1 hour ago










          • $begingroup$
            I would not have gone so far as to say that this is gamebreaking and I agree this kind of situation is unusual, however if it would have worked, some strange tactics could have emerge from it, like a "buffing" friendly fire.
            $endgroup$
            – Rophe
            45 mins ago
















          5












          $begingroup$

          No, it cannot stack with itself



          Bonuses from the same source (feat, spell, class ability, racial ability, etc) will never stack with themselves, as clarified in the definition of Bonus:




          Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.



          The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.




          So, using the same feat twice will not grant it's bonus twice. Similarly, using the spell Bull's Strength twice (even if two different casters do it) will not grant a total of +8 to Strength.



          Unless said ability specifically says that it stacks, but those are rare. For example, the Fleet feat.



          As for being strong or not, I would rather not suggest allowing an exception and trust (with a grain of salt) that the developer who wrote it to decide if the feat balanced or not. There are feats with similar effects that call that they stack, and a bunch of Aid Another(-ish) type feats that do not stack, and the benefit of this feat is granting an ally the benefits of another feat for one round (Lightning Reflexes) which seems balanced (to me) for a feat. Especially if you consider that despite the requirement, you are not actually required to use a heavy shield (it could be a tower shield), and you could grant the Vanguard Style bonus to multiple allies against a single area attack.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            (Of course, this answer is correct, but the answer may also want to dispel the misconception that were the bonuses to stack that the benefit would be overpowered. I mean, really, being adjacent to a buddy when a buddy needs to make a Ref save is atypical, being forced to make several Ref saves during a round is rare, and getting an increasingly bigger bonus to one's Ref save for 1 round typically isn't a big deal. A dude's just not gonna break the game by briefly giving his buddy a really high Ref save!)
            $endgroup$
            – Hey I Can Chan
            1 hour ago










          • $begingroup$
            I would not have gone so far as to say that this is gamebreaking and I agree this kind of situation is unusual, however if it would have worked, some strange tactics could have emerge from it, like a "buffing" friendly fire.
            $endgroup$
            – Rophe
            45 mins ago














          5












          5








          5





          $begingroup$

          No, it cannot stack with itself



          Bonuses from the same source (feat, spell, class ability, racial ability, etc) will never stack with themselves, as clarified in the definition of Bonus:




          Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.



          The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.




          So, using the same feat twice will not grant it's bonus twice. Similarly, using the spell Bull's Strength twice (even if two different casters do it) will not grant a total of +8 to Strength.



          Unless said ability specifically says that it stacks, but those are rare. For example, the Fleet feat.



          As for being strong or not, I would rather not suggest allowing an exception and trust (with a grain of salt) that the developer who wrote it to decide if the feat balanced or not. There are feats with similar effects that call that they stack, and a bunch of Aid Another(-ish) type feats that do not stack, and the benefit of this feat is granting an ally the benefits of another feat for one round (Lightning Reflexes) which seems balanced (to me) for a feat. Especially if you consider that despite the requirement, you are not actually required to use a heavy shield (it could be a tower shield), and you could grant the Vanguard Style bonus to multiple allies against a single area attack.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          No, it cannot stack with itself



          Bonuses from the same source (feat, spell, class ability, racial ability, etc) will never stack with themselves, as clarified in the definition of Bonus:




          Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.



          The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.




          So, using the same feat twice will not grant it's bonus twice. Similarly, using the spell Bull's Strength twice (even if two different casters do it) will not grant a total of +8 to Strength.



          Unless said ability specifically says that it stacks, but those are rare. For example, the Fleet feat.



          As for being strong or not, I would rather not suggest allowing an exception and trust (with a grain of salt) that the developer who wrote it to decide if the feat balanced or not. There are feats with similar effects that call that they stack, and a bunch of Aid Another(-ish) type feats that do not stack, and the benefit of this feat is granting an ally the benefits of another feat for one round (Lightning Reflexes) which seems balanced (to me) for a feat. Especially if you consider that despite the requirement, you are not actually required to use a heavy shield (it could be a tower shield), and you could grant the Vanguard Style bonus to multiple allies against a single area attack.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 34 mins ago

























          answered 1 hour ago









          ShadowKrasShadowKras

          52k374136




          52k374136












          • $begingroup$
            (Of course, this answer is correct, but the answer may also want to dispel the misconception that were the bonuses to stack that the benefit would be overpowered. I mean, really, being adjacent to a buddy when a buddy needs to make a Ref save is atypical, being forced to make several Ref saves during a round is rare, and getting an increasingly bigger bonus to one's Ref save for 1 round typically isn't a big deal. A dude's just not gonna break the game by briefly giving his buddy a really high Ref save!)
            $endgroup$
            – Hey I Can Chan
            1 hour ago










          • $begingroup$
            I would not have gone so far as to say that this is gamebreaking and I agree this kind of situation is unusual, however if it would have worked, some strange tactics could have emerge from it, like a "buffing" friendly fire.
            $endgroup$
            – Rophe
            45 mins ago


















          • $begingroup$
            (Of course, this answer is correct, but the answer may also want to dispel the misconception that were the bonuses to stack that the benefit would be overpowered. I mean, really, being adjacent to a buddy when a buddy needs to make a Ref save is atypical, being forced to make several Ref saves during a round is rare, and getting an increasingly bigger bonus to one's Ref save for 1 round typically isn't a big deal. A dude's just not gonna break the game by briefly giving his buddy a really high Ref save!)
            $endgroup$
            – Hey I Can Chan
            1 hour ago










          • $begingroup$
            I would not have gone so far as to say that this is gamebreaking and I agree this kind of situation is unusual, however if it would have worked, some strange tactics could have emerge from it, like a "buffing" friendly fire.
            $endgroup$
            – Rophe
            45 mins ago
















          $begingroup$
          (Of course, this answer is correct, but the answer may also want to dispel the misconception that were the bonuses to stack that the benefit would be overpowered. I mean, really, being adjacent to a buddy when a buddy needs to make a Ref save is atypical, being forced to make several Ref saves during a round is rare, and getting an increasingly bigger bonus to one's Ref save for 1 round typically isn't a big deal. A dude's just not gonna break the game by briefly giving his buddy a really high Ref save!)
          $endgroup$
          – Hey I Can Chan
          1 hour ago




          $begingroup$
          (Of course, this answer is correct, but the answer may also want to dispel the misconception that were the bonuses to stack that the benefit would be overpowered. I mean, really, being adjacent to a buddy when a buddy needs to make a Ref save is atypical, being forced to make several Ref saves during a round is rare, and getting an increasingly bigger bonus to one's Ref save for 1 round typically isn't a big deal. A dude's just not gonna break the game by briefly giving his buddy a really high Ref save!)
          $endgroup$
          – Hey I Can Chan
          1 hour ago












          $begingroup$
          I would not have gone so far as to say that this is gamebreaking and I agree this kind of situation is unusual, however if it would have worked, some strange tactics could have emerge from it, like a "buffing" friendly fire.
          $endgroup$
          – Rophe
          45 mins ago




          $begingroup$
          I would not have gone so far as to say that this is gamebreaking and I agree this kind of situation is unusual, however if it would have worked, some strange tactics could have emerge from it, like a "buffing" friendly fire.
          $endgroup$
          – Rophe
          45 mins ago


















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