Which European Languages are not Indo-European?
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I saw this question asked on Twitter today. At first blush it seemed like an easy reference question, but I can't find any place that actually has this spelled out in one place. I ended up having to do a lot of research, and still lots of folks came up with answers I didn't think about.
So perhaps this question can be that place. Feel free to add any qualifying languages that aren't listed to the wiki answer below.
For the purposes of the question, I'd like to stick to standard accepted boundaries of Europe, and not to include languages that only appeared due to late modern migration (eg: Arabic in Germany). Also of course no dead languages. (sorry, Etruscan. We miss you!)
europe language
asked May 21 at 15:48
T.E.D.♦T.E.D.
81.5k11 gold badges193 silver badges339 bronze badges
add a comment |
I saw this question asked on Twitter today. At first blush it seemed like an easy reference question, but I can't find any place that actually has this spelled out in one place. I ended up having to do a lot of research, and still lots of folks came up with answers I didn't think about.
So perhaps this question can be that place. Feel free to add any qualifying languages that aren't listed to the wiki answer below.
For the purposes of the question, I'd like to stick to standard accepted boundaries of Europe, and not to include languages that only appeared due to late modern migration (eg: Arabic in Germany). Also of course no dead languages. (sorry, Etruscan. We miss you!)
europe language
asked May 21 at 15:48
T.E.D.♦T.E.D.
81.5k11 gold badges193 silver badges339 bronze badges
6
I see you've already got several high quality answers here so it's too late to change anything, but this question would have been better asked on Linguistics.SE.
– CJ Dennis
May 22 at 3:39
1
@LangLangC I don't think most definitions (perhaps not any geographic definitions) of Europe include parts of Georgia. The most modern definition uses the ridge of the Caucasus as the border, and that's the northern border of Georgia. Most older definitions placed the Europe/Asia border even farther north. The only claims I see of Georgia as being European are based on culture, which doesn't seem to me to be valid. You might as well call Canada European on that basis!
– C Monsour
May 22 at 11:00
1
@DavidRobinson I asked in Linguistics since I find the comment and possible answers to it very interesting.
– Pavel
May 23 at 14:21
1
why are you showing a map with the UN geoscheme for Europe when it is arguably not a "standard accepted boundary"? @Noldorin regards Cyprus as Europe, do you? What about French Guiana, which is a part of the EU?
– Janus Troelsen
May 24 at 0:58
add a comment |
I saw this question asked on Twitter today. At first blush it seemed like an easy reference question, but I can't find any place that actually has this spelled out in one place. I ended up having to do a lot of research, and still lots of folks came up with answers I didn't think about.
So perhaps this question can be that place. Feel free to add any qualifying languages that aren't listed to the wiki answer below.
For the purposes of the question, I'd like to stick to standard accepted boundaries of Europe, and not to include languages that only appeared due to late modern migration (eg: Arabic in Germany). Also of course no dead languages. (sorry, Etruscan. We miss you!)
europe language
asked May 21 at 15:48
T.E.D.♦T.E.D.
81.5k11 gold badges193 silver badges339 bronze badges
I saw this question asked on Twitter today. At first blush it seemed like an easy reference question, but I can't find any place that actually has this spelled out in one place. I ended up having to do a lot of research, and still lots of folks came up with answers I didn't think about.
So perhaps this question can be that place. Feel free to add any qualifying languages that aren't listed to the wiki answer below.
For the purposes of the question, I'd like to stick to standard accepted boundaries of Europe, and not to include languages that only appeared due to late modern migration (eg: Arabic in Germany). Also of course no dead languages. (sorry, Etruscan. We miss you!)
europe language
europe language
asked May 21 at 15:48
T.E.D.♦T.E.D.
81.5k11 gold badges193 silver badges339 bronze badges
asked May 21 at 15:48
T.E.D.♦T.E.D.
81.5k11 gold badges193 silver badges339 bronze badges
edited May 21 at 19:47
T.E.D.
asked May 21 at 15:48
T.E.D.♦T.E.D.
81.5k11 gold badges193 silver badges339 bronze badges
asked May 21 at 15:48
T.E.D.♦T.E.D.
81.5k11 gold badges193 silver badges339 bronze badges
asked May 21 at 15:48
T.E.D.♦T.E.D.
81.5k11 gold badges193 silver badges339 bronze badges
81.5k11 gold badges193 silver badges339 bronze badges
6
I see you've already got several high quality answers here so it's too late to change anything, but this question would have been better asked on Linguistics.SE.
– CJ Dennis
May 22 at 3:39
1
@LangLangC I don't think most definitions (perhaps not any geographic definitions) of Europe include parts of Georgia. The most modern definition uses the ridge of the Caucasus as the border, and that's the northern border of Georgia. Most older definitions placed the Europe/Asia border even farther north. The only claims I see of Georgia as being European are based on culture, which doesn't seem to me to be valid. You might as well call Canada European on that basis!
– C Monsour
May 22 at 11:00
1
@DavidRobinson I asked in Linguistics since I find the comment and possible answers to it very interesting.
– Pavel
May 23 at 14:21
1
why are you showing a map with the UN geoscheme for Europe when it is arguably not a "standard accepted boundary"? @Noldorin regards Cyprus as Europe, do you? What about French Guiana, which is a part of the EU?
– Janus Troelsen
May 24 at 0:58
add a comment |
6
I see you've already got several high quality answers here so it's too late to change anything, but this question would have been better asked on Linguistics.SE.
– CJ Dennis
May 22 at 3:39
1
@LangLangC I don't think most definitions (perhaps not any geographic definitions) of Europe include parts of Georgia. The most modern definition uses the ridge of the Caucasus as the border, and that's the northern border of Georgia. Most older definitions placed the Europe/Asia border even farther north. The only claims I see of Georgia as being European are based on culture, which doesn't seem to me to be valid. You might as well call Canada European on that basis!
– C Monsour
May 22 at 11:00
1
@DavidRobinson I asked in Linguistics since I find the comment and possible answers to it very interesting.
– Pavel
May 23 at 14:21
1
why are you showing a map with the UN geoscheme for Europe when it is arguably not a "standard accepted boundary"? @Noldorin regards Cyprus as Europe, do you? What about French Guiana, which is a part of the EU?
– Janus Troelsen
May 24 at 0:58
6
6
I see you've already got several high quality answers here so it's too late to change anything, but this question would have been better asked on Linguistics.SE.
– CJ Dennis
May 22 at 3:39
I see you've already got several high quality answers here so it's too late to change anything, but this question would have been better asked on Linguistics.SE.
– CJ Dennis
May 22 at 3:39
1
1
@LangLangC I don't think most definitions (perhaps not any geographic definitions) of Europe include parts of Georgia. The most modern definition uses the ridge of the Caucasus as the border, and that's the northern border of Georgia. Most older definitions placed the Europe/Asia border even farther north. The only claims I see of Georgia as being European are based on culture, which doesn't seem to me to be valid. You might as well call Canada European on that basis!
– C Monsour
May 22 at 11:00
@LangLangC I don't think most definitions (perhaps not any geographic definitions) of Europe include parts of Georgia. The most modern definition uses the ridge of the Caucasus as the border, and that's the northern border of Georgia. Most older definitions placed the Europe/Asia border even farther north. The only claims I see of Georgia as being European are based on culture, which doesn't seem to me to be valid. You might as well call Canada European on that basis!
– C Monsour
May 22 at 11:00
1
1
@DavidRobinson I asked in Linguistics since I find the comment and possible answers to it very interesting.
– Pavel
May 23 at 14:21
@DavidRobinson I asked in Linguistics since I find the comment and possible answers to it very interesting.
– Pavel
May 23 at 14:21
1
1
why are you showing a map with the UN geoscheme for Europe when it is arguably not a "standard accepted boundary"? @Noldorin regards Cyprus as Europe, do you? What about French Guiana, which is a part of the EU?
– Janus Troelsen
May 24 at 0:58
why are you showing a map with the UN geoscheme for Europe when it is arguably not a "standard accepted boundary"? @Noldorin regards Cyprus as Europe, do you? What about French Guiana, which is a part of the EU?
– Janus Troelsen
May 24 at 0:58
add a comment |
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
Overview
](https://i.stack.imgur.com/cYFa6m.jpg)
](https://i.stack.imgur.com/FPxW0m.png)
Since there are a fair amount of them, languages are grouped below by language family:
Basque
A linguistic isolate native to the Pyrenees mountains between Spain, and France.
Source: "Location of the Basque-language provinces within Spain and France" by Eddo from Wikipedia.org
Uralic Languages
Source: "Linguistic maps of the Uralic languages" by Eddo derived based on a work by Chumwa from Wikipedia.org
Finnic Languages: Finnish, Karelian, Estonian, Vepsian, Ingrian, Votic, Ludic, Livonian
Sámi languages
- Mordvinic languages
Hungarian
- Mansi language
- Khanty language
A lot of little Uralic languages near the Urals. (likely incomplete, but these are all small, and on the fringes of Asia)
- Komi language
- Udmurt language
- Mari language
- Erzya language
- Mordvinic languages
Afro-Asiatic Languages:
Maltese, spoken on the island of Malta. Quite closely related to Arabic, this is the only Afro-Asiatic language that is an official language of an EU member country.
Turkic Languages
Source: "An accurate representation of the areas in which Turkic languages are spoken." Copyright by Mirza Farahani, used under CC BY-SA 4.0 from wikipedia.org.
Turkish in the portions of the nation of Turkey west of the Bosporus (including Istanbul).
Azeri in the portion of Azerbaijan that is in Europe.
Tatar in Tatarstan area of Russia
Kipshak in Russia and other parts of Eastern Europe
Bashkir language is a Turkic language belonging to the Kipchak branch. It is co-official with Russian in the Republic of Bashkortostan, European Russia
Kazakh in the Russian-Kazakh border regions
Gagauz language by the Gagauz people of Moldova, Ukraine, Russia, and Turkey, and it is the official language of the Autonomous Region of Gagauzia in Moldova.
Chuvash language in European Russia, primarily in the Chuvash Republic and adjacent areas.
Caucasian language families
These three language families are not considered to be related to each other, so this a geographic grouping, not a linguistic one. The below language families are all native to the region between the Black and Caspian seas.
Northeast Caucasian (Caspian) Languages
Source: "Approximate distribution of the branches of the Northeast Caucasian languages" by JorisvS from wikipedia.org
Spoken in both Azerbaijan and in the Russian Republics of Dagestan, Chechnya and Ingushetia. These include Chechen, Avar, Lezgian, Dargwa, Ingush, Lak, and Nakh.
Northwest Caucasian (Pontic) Languages
Source: "Approximate distribution of the branches of the Northwest Caucasian languages" by Gaga.vaa from wikipedia.org
Within Europe, spoken primarily in the Russian Republics of Adygea, Kabardino-Balkaria, Karachay–Cherkessia. Members of the family represented in Europe include Karbardian and Adyghe.
Kartvelian (Iberian) Languages
Georgian in European portions of Georgia*
Mongolian languages
In the form of Kalmyckian Oirat, with Kalmyckia also the region in Europe with Buddhism as the main religion.
Footnotes:
* - Geographically debatable
6
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Due to collaborative nature of this answer, we encourage use of the chat link for discussion on the contents of this answer. Further comments below will most likely be deleted.
– sempaiscuba♦
May 21 at 23:45
add a comment |
This answer is about Maltese. There have been various comments, which I build on and add to, as there are several complications:
- Does it result from a "modern migration"?
- Is Malta in Europe?
- Is it an Indo-European language?
Let us look at each of these. The main reference is Maltese language.
1. Does it result from a "modern migration"?
Now that the question has been clarified with a link to a definition of modern, the answer is clearly no. So it is eligible.
2. Is Malta in Europe?
It is an island between Europe and Africa, so, logically, it is neither European nor African. You could say it is European, based on proximity, but as T.E.D. quotes. "Islands are generally grouped with the nearest continental landmass...there are some exceptions based on sociopolitical and cultural differences... Malta was considered an island of Northwest Africa for centuries" so there are arguments on both sides. As for the argument about whether it is culturally European, there are two complications here. One is that it is not homogeneous. The northern part (nearer Sicily) is more Italianate (even with quite a lot of bilingualism) compared to the south. The other problem is that not all of its European-ness results from its proximity to Italy (which would help to class it as European) but rather from the fact that the UK treated it as a colony for quite a long time. We do not generally count places as part of Europe just because the UK injected culture from afar. As far as religion is concerned, Catholicism does not make a place European. The Maltese do seem to treat themselves as entirely European (in my limited experience) and they are in the EU, so I would put them in Europe on balance.
3. Is it an Indo-European language?
The above reference says it is a Semitic language, but the fact is that it is a creole, with Sicilian Italian as the acrolect and Sicilian Arabic as the basolect. Whether you classify a creole according to the acrolect or the basolect is more to do with politics than linguistics, since the linguistic fact is that it is a mixture. As recently as the 1990s Maltese children were being taught in schools, heavily influenced by the Catholic Church, and on the flimsiest of evidence, that Maltese was based on Italian. Every creole is different in terms of how much of the acrolect and basolect there is in it, but there is typically a higher proportion of the basolect in the grammar and basic vocabulary than there is in the advanced vocabulary. In the case of Maltese the above reference says
The original Semitic base, Siculo-Arabic, comprises around one-third of the Maltese vocabulary, especially words that denote basic ideas and the function words, but about half of the vocabulary is derived from standard Italian and Sicilian; and English words make up between 6% and 20% of the vocabulary. A recent study shows that, in terms of basic everyday language, speakers of Maltese are able to understand less than a third of what is said to them in Tunisian Arabic, which is related to Siculo-Arabic, whereas speakers of Tunisian are able to understand about 40% of what is said to them in Maltese.
That looks to me like a substantially Indo-European language, but also like a substantially non-Indo-European language. Since the question is about non-Indo-European influence in Europe, which does occur in Maltese, I think Maltese should be included, for the Semitic half.
So, on balance, I think Maltese should be included, as it contains a significant amount of Semitic in somewhere that is substantially European.
answered May 21 at 23:03
David RobinsonDavid Robinson
6288 bronze badges
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
6
Cyprus being in Europe is not remotely debatable, despite it's location – at the least the larger Greek part. Culturally it is Greek (thus European), linguistically it is Greek, and ethnically many Greek Cypriots (and some Turkish Cypriots) still share a lot with other Greeks. Oh yeah, and did I mention it's a member state of the EU? Anyway, Malta is very much debatable, though @David Robinson addressed this point among others, and made a decent argument.
– Noldorin
May 22 at 1:20
8
@Noldorin Continents are determined by geography, not by culture. You really weaken your case when you say that at least part of Cyprus is in Europe. Either the whole island is in Europe or none of it is. The cultural argument clearly holds no water, for consider that the coast of Asia Minor was historically Greek. And do you know what the Greeks called it? "Asia".
– C Monsour
May 22 at 1:52
6
Malta is an island on the European continental shelf, it is geographically in Europe. @Noldorin Cyprus is clearly in Asia, geographically speaking. Culturally, it is European, however.
– Chieron
May 22 at 6:28
2
@LangLangC it is counted as Germanic, it seems to mostly have Hebrew (semitic) loanwords (many of which found its way into German, too), but the grammar is Germanic
– Chieron
May 22 at 6:29
2
It WP page pretty firmly places the Maltese as Semitic, and it isn't listed on any of their lists of creoles. Where's this answer's reference that someone credible agues otherwise? It did say that a hair over half its vocabulary has Romance (IE) roots, but there's far more to a language than just its vocabularly (just like there's far more to a computer programming language than just its reserved words and symbols).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 14:17
|
show 1 more comment
I think Kalmyk has not been mentioned yet. And depending on what you define as "late modern", Chinese (e.g. in Liverpool) may also count.
edited May 22 at 9:58
Steve Bird
14.4k3 gold badges66 silver badges73 bronze badges
answered May 22 at 9:47
JanJan
1843 bronze badges
1
The Late Modern period in historical circles is generally taken to start in the mid 18th Century. This was picked specifically to avoid the innumerable little urban ethnic diaspora enclaves all over the world enabled by modern transportation (and to give transient minority populations time to assimilate if that's their inclination).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 14:24
2
Chinese definitely doesn't count. I think the OP makes it clear that we're only talking of languages that have some reasonable claim to being "native" or "long-established" in Europe.
– Noldorin
May 22 at 16:11
2
And yet Kazakh is supposed to count, because some areas west of the Ural river have been part of a Kazakh nation-state for an eternity of around 27.5 years (if I have calculated correctly).
– Jan
May 22 at 19:05
1
I agree, Kazakh probably shouldn't count either...
– Noldorin
May 22 at 20:18
6
There have been Kazakh native speakers in the area West of the Ural River for centuries, yes? So of course Kazakh should be on the list. If long-standing political independence were a requirement, you couldn't even count Basque.
– C Monsour
May 23 at 11:56
|
show 1 more comment
This answer is about Yiddish. There have been various comments, which I build on and add to, as there are several complications:
- Does it result from a "modern migration"?
- Is Yiddish spoken in Europe?
- Is it an Indo-European language?
Let us look at each of these.
1. Does it result from a "modern migration"?
Now that the question has been clarified with a link to a definition of modern, the answer is clearly no. So it is eligible.
2. Is Yiddish spoken in Europe?
Yes, it has been for centuries, although it is rapidly dying out. So it should be counted as a European language
3. Is it an Indo-European language?
The quick answer, according to most sources on the internet, is that it a Germanic language (thus IE) with Hebrew (thus Semitic) added.
But I don't think it is fair to classify any language as IE or non-IE based solely on a simple majority. If there are significant elements from both IE and non-IE, then it is linguistically important as both an IE and a non-IE language, in my view. If we were to go with a simple majority view then perhaps the UK should be excluded from Europe based on the fact that 52% of the population does not want it included in Europe.
When we get to the question of how much Hebrew there is in Yiddish, and thus whether Yiddish makes a significant contribution to non-IE European language, I came across a problem. No easy-to-find online source in English told me. This reflects the low status of Yiddish in the English-speaking world in the 21st century.
I turned to French Wikipedia which stated that the vocabulary is 10-15% Semitic. I would say that this figure, by itself, means that Yiddish should be included, as it means there is a Semitic element in European language, even if it is not large.
But there is a much more important consideration: whereas Maltese has had no significant effect on any other European language that I can find (notwithstanding this list of words I have never heard of), Yiddish has been the conduit for a number of Semitic words to enter not only German and Polish, but also English (paying attention to those marked as Hebrew in origin) (many of which I have heard of) and French.
So, given that Yiddish is the European language which has introduced many (and possibly the most) Semitic words into English, German, Polish and French, I think it deserves a place on the list, regardless of its predominantly IE grammar and the particular percentage of words of Semitic origin.
answered May 22 at 17:20
David RobinsonDavid Robinson
6288 bronze badges
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
3
Do you have a credible source to reference this claim that Yiddish is not Indo-European? This website is meant to be descriptive, not proscriptive. If you have a novel idea about how historical things are to be viewed or classified that goes completely against the current scholarly consensus, we'd ask that you first submit it to the appropriate journals and get it published (peer-reviewed, etc.).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 18:12
2
Every detailed tree of Indo-European languages I've seen places Yiddish squarely in the Germanic branch.
– Steven Burnap
May 22 at 19:47
1
I mean, around 60% of English words are of Latin origin, but no one in their right mind would argue that English is a Romance language.
– Denis Nardin
May 22 at 20:40
3
@David Robinson Please cite a text that treats Norman words in English as not being loan words.
– C Monsour
May 23 at 16:15
3
A point no one has mentioned: the Semitic words in Yiddish are, to a large extent, related to Jewish rituals and practices. (An example - I don't recall the source; might have been one of Max Weinreich's books - is how Yiddish uses a Germanic-derived word (zun) for the sun, but a Hebrew-derived one (levone) for the moon, because the moon figures much more in Jewish practice - there is a monthly ceremony of blessing G-d for creating and renewing it.) Which makes Yiddish more in the nature of a jargon, not unlike "medicalese," for example, which no one would consider a separate language.
– Meir
May 24 at 4:23
|
show 12 more comments
According to Dr. Seth Lerer, of The Great Courses and University of California San Diego, the Georgian language 's parentage is unknown, so it may not be Indo-European.
answered May 22 at 22:09
MikeMike
211 bronze badge
Do you have any citations that Georgian might be Indo-European? The only proposed connection between the Kartvelian languages and IE that I am aware of is Nostratic.
– chepner
May 23 at 20:19
I don't. The closest I can come to that is very anecdotal. I have discussed this with a Russian girl whose mother is from Georgia. She thinks it must be Indo-European based on the fact that, while speaking in the Georgian language, they (the Georgian people) use a lot of Russian words. This, of course, does not constitute any amount of scientific rigor. Given the close proximity of Georgia and Russia and Russia's overlordship of Georgia over the last century, it's not surprising that plenty of Russian words have mixed into the Georgian vernacular. That's all I've got concerning your question.
– Mike
May 29 at 18:44
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5 Answers
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5 Answers
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Overview
Since there are a fair amount of them, languages are grouped below by language family:
Basque
A linguistic isolate native to the Pyrenees mountains between Spain, and France.
Source: "Location of the Basque-language provinces within Spain and France" by Eddo from Wikipedia.org
Uralic Languages
Source: "Linguistic maps of the Uralic languages" by Eddo derived based on a work by Chumwa from Wikipedia.org
Finnic Languages: Finnish, Karelian, Estonian, Vepsian, Ingrian, Votic, Ludic, Livonian
Sámi languages
- Mordvinic languages
Hungarian
- Mansi language
- Khanty language
A lot of little Uralic languages near the Urals. (likely incomplete, but these are all small, and on the fringes of Asia)
- Komi language
- Udmurt language
- Mari language
- Erzya language
- Mordvinic languages
Afro-Asiatic Languages:
Maltese, spoken on the island of Malta. Quite closely related to Arabic, this is the only Afro-Asiatic language that is an official language of an EU member country.
Turkic Languages
Source: "An accurate representation of the areas in which Turkic languages are spoken." Copyright by Mirza Farahani, used under CC BY-SA 4.0 from wikipedia.org.
Turkish in the portions of the nation of Turkey west of the Bosporus (including Istanbul).
Azeri in the portion of Azerbaijan that is in Europe.
Tatar in Tatarstan area of Russia
Kipshak in Russia and other parts of Eastern Europe
Bashkir language is a Turkic language belonging to the Kipchak branch. It is co-official with Russian in the Republic of Bashkortostan, European Russia
Kazakh in the Russian-Kazakh border regions
Gagauz language by the Gagauz people of Moldova, Ukraine, Russia, and Turkey, and it is the official language of the Autonomous Region of Gagauzia in Moldova.
Chuvash language in European Russia, primarily in the Chuvash Republic and adjacent areas.
Caucasian language families
These three language families are not considered to be related to each other, so this a geographic grouping, not a linguistic one. The below language families are all native to the region between the Black and Caspian seas.
Northeast Caucasian (Caspian) Languages
Source: "Approximate distribution of the branches of the Northeast Caucasian languages" by JorisvS from wikipedia.org
Spoken in both Azerbaijan and in the Russian Republics of Dagestan, Chechnya and Ingushetia. These include Chechen, Avar, Lezgian, Dargwa, Ingush, Lak, and Nakh.
Northwest Caucasian (Pontic) Languages
Source: "Approximate distribution of the branches of the Northwest Caucasian languages" by Gaga.vaa from wikipedia.org
Within Europe, spoken primarily in the Russian Republics of Adygea, Kabardino-Balkaria, Karachay–Cherkessia. Members of the family represented in Europe include Karbardian and Adyghe.
Kartvelian (Iberian) Languages
Georgian in European portions of Georgia*
Mongolian languages
In the form of Kalmyckian Oirat, with Kalmyckia also the region in Europe with Buddhism as the main religion.
Footnotes:
* - Geographically debatable
6
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Due to collaborative nature of this answer, we encourage use of the chat link for discussion on the contents of this answer. Further comments below will most likely be deleted.
– sempaiscuba♦
May 21 at 23:45
add a comment |
Overview
Since there are a fair amount of them, languages are grouped below by language family:
Basque
A linguistic isolate native to the Pyrenees mountains between Spain, and France.
Source: "Location of the Basque-language provinces within Spain and France" by Eddo from Wikipedia.org
Uralic Languages
Source: "Linguistic maps of the Uralic languages" by Eddo derived based on a work by Chumwa from Wikipedia.org
Finnic Languages: Finnish, Karelian, Estonian, Vepsian, Ingrian, Votic, Ludic, Livonian
Sámi languages
- Mordvinic languages
Hungarian
- Mansi language
- Khanty language
A lot of little Uralic languages near the Urals. (likely incomplete, but these are all small, and on the fringes of Asia)
- Komi language
- Udmurt language
- Mari language
- Erzya language
- Mordvinic languages
Afro-Asiatic Languages:
Maltese, spoken on the island of Malta. Quite closely related to Arabic, this is the only Afro-Asiatic language that is an official language of an EU member country.
Turkic Languages
Source: "An accurate representation of the areas in which Turkic languages are spoken." Copyright by Mirza Farahani, used under CC BY-SA 4.0 from wikipedia.org.
Turkish in the portions of the nation of Turkey west of the Bosporus (including Istanbul).
Azeri in the portion of Azerbaijan that is in Europe.
Tatar in Tatarstan area of Russia
Kipshak in Russia and other parts of Eastern Europe
Bashkir language is a Turkic language belonging to the Kipchak branch. It is co-official with Russian in the Republic of Bashkortostan, European Russia
Kazakh in the Russian-Kazakh border regions
Gagauz language by the Gagauz people of Moldova, Ukraine, Russia, and Turkey, and it is the official language of the Autonomous Region of Gagauzia in Moldova.
Chuvash language in European Russia, primarily in the Chuvash Republic and adjacent areas.
Caucasian language families
These three language families are not considered to be related to each other, so this a geographic grouping, not a linguistic one. The below language families are all native to the region between the Black and Caspian seas.
Northeast Caucasian (Caspian) Languages
Source: "Approximate distribution of the branches of the Northeast Caucasian languages" by JorisvS from wikipedia.org
Spoken in both Azerbaijan and in the Russian Republics of Dagestan, Chechnya and Ingushetia. These include Chechen, Avar, Lezgian, Dargwa, Ingush, Lak, and Nakh.
Northwest Caucasian (Pontic) Languages
Source: "Approximate distribution of the branches of the Northwest Caucasian languages" by Gaga.vaa from wikipedia.org
Within Europe, spoken primarily in the Russian Republics of Adygea, Kabardino-Balkaria, Karachay–Cherkessia. Members of the family represented in Europe include Karbardian and Adyghe.
Kartvelian (Iberian) Languages
Georgian in European portions of Georgia*
Mongolian languages
In the form of Kalmyckian Oirat, with Kalmyckia also the region in Europe with Buddhism as the main religion.
Footnotes:
* - Geographically debatable
6
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Due to collaborative nature of this answer, we encourage use of the chat link for discussion on the contents of this answer. Further comments below will most likely be deleted.
– sempaiscuba♦
May 21 at 23:45
add a comment |
Overview
Since there are a fair amount of them, languages are grouped below by language family:
Basque
A linguistic isolate native to the Pyrenees mountains between Spain, and France.
Source: "Location of the Basque-language provinces within Spain and France" by Eddo from Wikipedia.org
Uralic Languages
Source: "Linguistic maps of the Uralic languages" by Eddo derived based on a work by Chumwa from Wikipedia.org
Finnic Languages: Finnish, Karelian, Estonian, Vepsian, Ingrian, Votic, Ludic, Livonian
Sámi languages
- Mordvinic languages
Hungarian
- Mansi language
- Khanty language
A lot of little Uralic languages near the Urals. (likely incomplete, but these are all small, and on the fringes of Asia)
- Komi language
- Udmurt language
- Mari language
- Erzya language
- Mordvinic languages
Afro-Asiatic Languages:
Maltese, spoken on the island of Malta. Quite closely related to Arabic, this is the only Afro-Asiatic language that is an official language of an EU member country.
Turkic Languages
Source: "An accurate representation of the areas in which Turkic languages are spoken." Copyright by Mirza Farahani, used under CC BY-SA 4.0 from wikipedia.org.
Turkish in the portions of the nation of Turkey west of the Bosporus (including Istanbul).
Azeri in the portion of Azerbaijan that is in Europe.
Tatar in Tatarstan area of Russia
Kipshak in Russia and other parts of Eastern Europe
Bashkir language is a Turkic language belonging to the Kipchak branch. It is co-official with Russian in the Republic of Bashkortostan, European Russia
Kazakh in the Russian-Kazakh border regions
Gagauz language by the Gagauz people of Moldova, Ukraine, Russia, and Turkey, and it is the official language of the Autonomous Region of Gagauzia in Moldova.
Chuvash language in European Russia, primarily in the Chuvash Republic and adjacent areas.
Caucasian language families
These three language families are not considered to be related to each other, so this a geographic grouping, not a linguistic one. The below language families are all native to the region between the Black and Caspian seas.
Northeast Caucasian (Caspian) Languages
Source: "Approximate distribution of the branches of the Northeast Caucasian languages" by JorisvS from wikipedia.org
Spoken in both Azerbaijan and in the Russian Republics of Dagestan, Chechnya and Ingushetia. These include Chechen, Avar, Lezgian, Dargwa, Ingush, Lak, and Nakh.
Northwest Caucasian (Pontic) Languages
Source: "Approximate distribution of the branches of the Northwest Caucasian languages" by Gaga.vaa from wikipedia.org
Within Europe, spoken primarily in the Russian Republics of Adygea, Kabardino-Balkaria, Karachay–Cherkessia. Members of the family represented in Europe include Karbardian and Adyghe.
Kartvelian (Iberian) Languages
Georgian in European portions of Georgia*
Mongolian languages
In the form of Kalmyckian Oirat, with Kalmyckia also the region in Europe with Buddhism as the main religion.
Footnotes:
* - Geographically debatable
Overview
Since there are a fair amount of them, languages are grouped below by language family:
Basque
A linguistic isolate native to the Pyrenees mountains between Spain, and France.
Source: "Location of the Basque-language provinces within Spain and France" by Eddo from Wikipedia.org
Uralic Languages
Source: "Linguistic maps of the Uralic languages" by Eddo derived based on a work by Chumwa from Wikipedia.org
Finnic Languages: Finnish, Karelian, Estonian, Vepsian, Ingrian, Votic, Ludic, Livonian
Sámi languages
- Mordvinic languages
Hungarian
- Mansi language
- Khanty language
A lot of little Uralic languages near the Urals. (likely incomplete, but these are all small, and on the fringes of Asia)
- Komi language
- Udmurt language
- Mari language
- Erzya language
- Mordvinic languages
Afro-Asiatic Languages:
Maltese, spoken on the island of Malta. Quite closely related to Arabic, this is the only Afro-Asiatic language that is an official language of an EU member country.
Turkic Languages
Source: "An accurate representation of the areas in which Turkic languages are spoken." Copyright by Mirza Farahani, used under CC BY-SA 4.0 from wikipedia.org.
Turkish in the portions of the nation of Turkey west of the Bosporus (including Istanbul).
Azeri in the portion of Azerbaijan that is in Europe.
Tatar in Tatarstan area of Russia
Kipshak in Russia and other parts of Eastern Europe
Bashkir language is a Turkic language belonging to the Kipchak branch. It is co-official with Russian in the Republic of Bashkortostan, European Russia
Kazakh in the Russian-Kazakh border regions
Gagauz language by the Gagauz people of Moldova, Ukraine, Russia, and Turkey, and it is the official language of the Autonomous Region of Gagauzia in Moldova.
Chuvash language in European Russia, primarily in the Chuvash Republic and adjacent areas.
Caucasian language families
These three language families are not considered to be related to each other, so this a geographic grouping, not a linguistic one. The below language families are all native to the region between the Black and Caspian seas.
Northeast Caucasian (Caspian) Languages
Source: "Approximate distribution of the branches of the Northeast Caucasian languages" by JorisvS from wikipedia.org
Spoken in both Azerbaijan and in the Russian Republics of Dagestan, Chechnya and Ingushetia. These include Chechen, Avar, Lezgian, Dargwa, Ingush, Lak, and Nakh.
Northwest Caucasian (Pontic) Languages
Source: "Approximate distribution of the branches of the Northwest Caucasian languages" by Gaga.vaa from wikipedia.org
Within Europe, spoken primarily in the Russian Republics of Adygea, Kabardino-Balkaria, Karachay–Cherkessia. Members of the family represented in Europe include Karbardian and Adyghe.
Kartvelian (Iberian) Languages
Georgian in European portions of Georgia*
Mongolian languages
In the form of Kalmyckian Oirat, with Kalmyckia also the region in Europe with Buddhism as the main religion.
Footnotes:
* - Geographically debatable
edited May 30 at 15:44
community wiki
33 revs, 6 users 66%
LangLangC
6
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Due to collaborative nature of this answer, we encourage use of the chat link for discussion on the contents of this answer. Further comments below will most likely be deleted.
– sempaiscuba♦
May 21 at 23:45
add a comment |
6
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Due to collaborative nature of this answer, we encourage use of the chat link for discussion on the contents of this answer. Further comments below will most likely be deleted.
– sempaiscuba♦
May 21 at 23:45
6
6
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Due to collaborative nature of this answer, we encourage use of the chat link for discussion on the contents of this answer. Further comments below will most likely be deleted.
– sempaiscuba♦
May 21 at 23:45
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Due to collaborative nature of this answer, we encourage use of the chat link for discussion on the contents of this answer. Further comments below will most likely be deleted.
– sempaiscuba♦
May 21 at 23:45
add a comment |
This answer is about Maltese. There have been various comments, which I build on and add to, as there are several complications:
- Does it result from a "modern migration"?
- Is Malta in Europe?
- Is it an Indo-European language?
Let us look at each of these. The main reference is Maltese language.
1. Does it result from a "modern migration"?
Now that the question has been clarified with a link to a definition of modern, the answer is clearly no. So it is eligible.
2. Is Malta in Europe?
It is an island between Europe and Africa, so, logically, it is neither European nor African. You could say it is European, based on proximity, but as T.E.D. quotes. "Islands are generally grouped with the nearest continental landmass...there are some exceptions based on sociopolitical and cultural differences... Malta was considered an island of Northwest Africa for centuries" so there are arguments on both sides. As for the argument about whether it is culturally European, there are two complications here. One is that it is not homogeneous. The northern part (nearer Sicily) is more Italianate (even with quite a lot of bilingualism) compared to the south. The other problem is that not all of its European-ness results from its proximity to Italy (which would help to class it as European) but rather from the fact that the UK treated it as a colony for quite a long time. We do not generally count places as part of Europe just because the UK injected culture from afar. As far as religion is concerned, Catholicism does not make a place European. The Maltese do seem to treat themselves as entirely European (in my limited experience) and they are in the EU, so I would put them in Europe on balance.
3. Is it an Indo-European language?
The above reference says it is a Semitic language, but the fact is that it is a creole, with Sicilian Italian as the acrolect and Sicilian Arabic as the basolect. Whether you classify a creole according to the acrolect or the basolect is more to do with politics than linguistics, since the linguistic fact is that it is a mixture. As recently as the 1990s Maltese children were being taught in schools, heavily influenced by the Catholic Church, and on the flimsiest of evidence, that Maltese was based on Italian. Every creole is different in terms of how much of the acrolect and basolect there is in it, but there is typically a higher proportion of the basolect in the grammar and basic vocabulary than there is in the advanced vocabulary. In the case of Maltese the above reference says
The original Semitic base, Siculo-Arabic, comprises around one-third of the Maltese vocabulary, especially words that denote basic ideas and the function words, but about half of the vocabulary is derived from standard Italian and Sicilian; and English words make up between 6% and 20% of the vocabulary. A recent study shows that, in terms of basic everyday language, speakers of Maltese are able to understand less than a third of what is said to them in Tunisian Arabic, which is related to Siculo-Arabic, whereas speakers of Tunisian are able to understand about 40% of what is said to them in Maltese.
That looks to me like a substantially Indo-European language, but also like a substantially non-Indo-European language. Since the question is about non-Indo-European influence in Europe, which does occur in Maltese, I think Maltese should be included, for the Semitic half.
So, on balance, I think Maltese should be included, as it contains a significant amount of Semitic in somewhere that is substantially European.
answered May 21 at 23:03
David RobinsonDavid Robinson
6288 bronze badges
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
6
Cyprus being in Europe is not remotely debatable, despite it's location – at the least the larger Greek part. Culturally it is Greek (thus European), linguistically it is Greek, and ethnically many Greek Cypriots (and some Turkish Cypriots) still share a lot with other Greeks. Oh yeah, and did I mention it's a member state of the EU? Anyway, Malta is very much debatable, though @David Robinson addressed this point among others, and made a decent argument.
– Noldorin
May 22 at 1:20
8
@Noldorin Continents are determined by geography, not by culture. You really weaken your case when you say that at least part of Cyprus is in Europe. Either the whole island is in Europe or none of it is. The cultural argument clearly holds no water, for consider that the coast of Asia Minor was historically Greek. And do you know what the Greeks called it? "Asia".
– C Monsour
May 22 at 1:52
6
Malta is an island on the European continental shelf, it is geographically in Europe. @Noldorin Cyprus is clearly in Asia, geographically speaking. Culturally, it is European, however.
– Chieron
May 22 at 6:28
2
@LangLangC it is counted as Germanic, it seems to mostly have Hebrew (semitic) loanwords (many of which found its way into German, too), but the grammar is Germanic
– Chieron
May 22 at 6:29
2
It WP page pretty firmly places the Maltese as Semitic, and it isn't listed on any of their lists of creoles. Where's this answer's reference that someone credible agues otherwise? It did say that a hair over half its vocabulary has Romance (IE) roots, but there's far more to a language than just its vocabularly (just like there's far more to a computer programming language than just its reserved words and symbols).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 14:17
|
show 1 more comment
This answer is about Maltese. There have been various comments, which I build on and add to, as there are several complications:
- Does it result from a "modern migration"?
- Is Malta in Europe?
- Is it an Indo-European language?
Let us look at each of these. The main reference is Maltese language.
1. Does it result from a "modern migration"?
Now that the question has been clarified with a link to a definition of modern, the answer is clearly no. So it is eligible.
2. Is Malta in Europe?
It is an island between Europe and Africa, so, logically, it is neither European nor African. You could say it is European, based on proximity, but as T.E.D. quotes. "Islands are generally grouped with the nearest continental landmass...there are some exceptions based on sociopolitical and cultural differences... Malta was considered an island of Northwest Africa for centuries" so there are arguments on both sides. As for the argument about whether it is culturally European, there are two complications here. One is that it is not homogeneous. The northern part (nearer Sicily) is more Italianate (even with quite a lot of bilingualism) compared to the south. The other problem is that not all of its European-ness results from its proximity to Italy (which would help to class it as European) but rather from the fact that the UK treated it as a colony for quite a long time. We do not generally count places as part of Europe just because the UK injected culture from afar. As far as religion is concerned, Catholicism does not make a place European. The Maltese do seem to treat themselves as entirely European (in my limited experience) and they are in the EU, so I would put them in Europe on balance.
3. Is it an Indo-European language?
The above reference says it is a Semitic language, but the fact is that it is a creole, with Sicilian Italian as the acrolect and Sicilian Arabic as the basolect. Whether you classify a creole according to the acrolect or the basolect is more to do with politics than linguistics, since the linguistic fact is that it is a mixture. As recently as the 1990s Maltese children were being taught in schools, heavily influenced by the Catholic Church, and on the flimsiest of evidence, that Maltese was based on Italian. Every creole is different in terms of how much of the acrolect and basolect there is in it, but there is typically a higher proportion of the basolect in the grammar and basic vocabulary than there is in the advanced vocabulary. In the case of Maltese the above reference says
The original Semitic base, Siculo-Arabic, comprises around one-third of the Maltese vocabulary, especially words that denote basic ideas and the function words, but about half of the vocabulary is derived from standard Italian and Sicilian; and English words make up between 6% and 20% of the vocabulary. A recent study shows that, in terms of basic everyday language, speakers of Maltese are able to understand less than a third of what is said to them in Tunisian Arabic, which is related to Siculo-Arabic, whereas speakers of Tunisian are able to understand about 40% of what is said to them in Maltese.
That looks to me like a substantially Indo-European language, but also like a substantially non-Indo-European language. Since the question is about non-Indo-European influence in Europe, which does occur in Maltese, I think Maltese should be included, for the Semitic half.
So, on balance, I think Maltese should be included, as it contains a significant amount of Semitic in somewhere that is substantially European.
answered May 21 at 23:03
David RobinsonDavid Robinson
6288 bronze badges
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
6
Cyprus being in Europe is not remotely debatable, despite it's location – at the least the larger Greek part. Culturally it is Greek (thus European), linguistically it is Greek, and ethnically many Greek Cypriots (and some Turkish Cypriots) still share a lot with other Greeks. Oh yeah, and did I mention it's a member state of the EU? Anyway, Malta is very much debatable, though @David Robinson addressed this point among others, and made a decent argument.
– Noldorin
May 22 at 1:20
8
@Noldorin Continents are determined by geography, not by culture. You really weaken your case when you say that at least part of Cyprus is in Europe. Either the whole island is in Europe or none of it is. The cultural argument clearly holds no water, for consider that the coast of Asia Minor was historically Greek. And do you know what the Greeks called it? "Asia".
– C Monsour
May 22 at 1:52
6
Malta is an island on the European continental shelf, it is geographically in Europe. @Noldorin Cyprus is clearly in Asia, geographically speaking. Culturally, it is European, however.
– Chieron
May 22 at 6:28
2
@LangLangC it is counted as Germanic, it seems to mostly have Hebrew (semitic) loanwords (many of which found its way into German, too), but the grammar is Germanic
– Chieron
May 22 at 6:29
2
It WP page pretty firmly places the Maltese as Semitic, and it isn't listed on any of their lists of creoles. Where's this answer's reference that someone credible agues otherwise? It did say that a hair over half its vocabulary has Romance (IE) roots, but there's far more to a language than just its vocabularly (just like there's far more to a computer programming language than just its reserved words and symbols).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 14:17
|
show 1 more comment
This answer is about Maltese. There have been various comments, which I build on and add to, as there are several complications:
- Does it result from a "modern migration"?
- Is Malta in Europe?
- Is it an Indo-European language?
Let us look at each of these. The main reference is Maltese language.
1. Does it result from a "modern migration"?
Now that the question has been clarified with a link to a definition of modern, the answer is clearly no. So it is eligible.
2. Is Malta in Europe?
It is an island between Europe and Africa, so, logically, it is neither European nor African. You could say it is European, based on proximity, but as T.E.D. quotes. "Islands are generally grouped with the nearest continental landmass...there are some exceptions based on sociopolitical and cultural differences... Malta was considered an island of Northwest Africa for centuries" so there are arguments on both sides. As for the argument about whether it is culturally European, there are two complications here. One is that it is not homogeneous. The northern part (nearer Sicily) is more Italianate (even with quite a lot of bilingualism) compared to the south. The other problem is that not all of its European-ness results from its proximity to Italy (which would help to class it as European) but rather from the fact that the UK treated it as a colony for quite a long time. We do not generally count places as part of Europe just because the UK injected culture from afar. As far as religion is concerned, Catholicism does not make a place European. The Maltese do seem to treat themselves as entirely European (in my limited experience) and they are in the EU, so I would put them in Europe on balance.
3. Is it an Indo-European language?
The above reference says it is a Semitic language, but the fact is that it is a creole, with Sicilian Italian as the acrolect and Sicilian Arabic as the basolect. Whether you classify a creole according to the acrolect or the basolect is more to do with politics than linguistics, since the linguistic fact is that it is a mixture. As recently as the 1990s Maltese children were being taught in schools, heavily influenced by the Catholic Church, and on the flimsiest of evidence, that Maltese was based on Italian. Every creole is different in terms of how much of the acrolect and basolect there is in it, but there is typically a higher proportion of the basolect in the grammar and basic vocabulary than there is in the advanced vocabulary. In the case of Maltese the above reference says
The original Semitic base, Siculo-Arabic, comprises around one-third of the Maltese vocabulary, especially words that denote basic ideas and the function words, but about half of the vocabulary is derived from standard Italian and Sicilian; and English words make up between 6% and 20% of the vocabulary. A recent study shows that, in terms of basic everyday language, speakers of Maltese are able to understand less than a third of what is said to them in Tunisian Arabic, which is related to Siculo-Arabic, whereas speakers of Tunisian are able to understand about 40% of what is said to them in Maltese.
That looks to me like a substantially Indo-European language, but also like a substantially non-Indo-European language. Since the question is about non-Indo-European influence in Europe, which does occur in Maltese, I think Maltese should be included, for the Semitic half.
So, on balance, I think Maltese should be included, as it contains a significant amount of Semitic in somewhere that is substantially European.
answered May 21 at 23:03
David RobinsonDavid Robinson
6288 bronze badges
This answer is about Maltese. There have been various comments, which I build on and add to, as there are several complications:
- Does it result from a "modern migration"?
- Is Malta in Europe?
- Is it an Indo-European language?
Let us look at each of these. The main reference is Maltese language.
1. Does it result from a "modern migration"?
Now that the question has been clarified with a link to a definition of modern, the answer is clearly no. So it is eligible.
2. Is Malta in Europe?
It is an island between Europe and Africa, so, logically, it is neither European nor African. You could say it is European, based on proximity, but as T.E.D. quotes. "Islands are generally grouped with the nearest continental landmass...there are some exceptions based on sociopolitical and cultural differences... Malta was considered an island of Northwest Africa for centuries" so there are arguments on both sides. As for the argument about whether it is culturally European, there are two complications here. One is that it is not homogeneous. The northern part (nearer Sicily) is more Italianate (even with quite a lot of bilingualism) compared to the south. The other problem is that not all of its European-ness results from its proximity to Italy (which would help to class it as European) but rather from the fact that the UK treated it as a colony for quite a long time. We do not generally count places as part of Europe just because the UK injected culture from afar. As far as religion is concerned, Catholicism does not make a place European. The Maltese do seem to treat themselves as entirely European (in my limited experience) and they are in the EU, so I would put them in Europe on balance.
3. Is it an Indo-European language?
The above reference says it is a Semitic language, but the fact is that it is a creole, with Sicilian Italian as the acrolect and Sicilian Arabic as the basolect. Whether you classify a creole according to the acrolect or the basolect is more to do with politics than linguistics, since the linguistic fact is that it is a mixture. As recently as the 1990s Maltese children were being taught in schools, heavily influenced by the Catholic Church, and on the flimsiest of evidence, that Maltese was based on Italian. Every creole is different in terms of how much of the acrolect and basolect there is in it, but there is typically a higher proportion of the basolect in the grammar and basic vocabulary than there is in the advanced vocabulary. In the case of Maltese the above reference says
The original Semitic base, Siculo-Arabic, comprises around one-third of the Maltese vocabulary, especially words that denote basic ideas and the function words, but about half of the vocabulary is derived from standard Italian and Sicilian; and English words make up between 6% and 20% of the vocabulary. A recent study shows that, in terms of basic everyday language, speakers of Maltese are able to understand less than a third of what is said to them in Tunisian Arabic, which is related to Siculo-Arabic, whereas speakers of Tunisian are able to understand about 40% of what is said to them in Maltese.
That looks to me like a substantially Indo-European language, but also like a substantially non-Indo-European language. Since the question is about non-Indo-European influence in Europe, which does occur in Maltese, I think Maltese should be included, for the Semitic half.
So, on balance, I think Maltese should be included, as it contains a significant amount of Semitic in somewhere that is substantially European.
answered May 21 at 23:03
David RobinsonDavid Robinson
6288 bronze badges
edited May 21 at 23:08
answered May 21 at 23:03
David RobinsonDavid Robinson
6288 bronze badges
answered May 21 at 23:03
David RobinsonDavid Robinson
6288 bronze badges
answered May 21 at 23:03
David RobinsonDavid Robinson
6288 bronze badges
6288 bronze badges
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
6
Cyprus being in Europe is not remotely debatable, despite it's location – at the least the larger Greek part. Culturally it is Greek (thus European), linguistically it is Greek, and ethnically many Greek Cypriots (and some Turkish Cypriots) still share a lot with other Greeks. Oh yeah, and did I mention it's a member state of the EU? Anyway, Malta is very much debatable, though @David Robinson addressed this point among others, and made a decent argument.
– Noldorin
May 22 at 1:20
8
@Noldorin Continents are determined by geography, not by culture. You really weaken your case when you say that at least part of Cyprus is in Europe. Either the whole island is in Europe or none of it is. The cultural argument clearly holds no water, for consider that the coast of Asia Minor was historically Greek. And do you know what the Greeks called it? "Asia".
– C Monsour
May 22 at 1:52
6
Malta is an island on the European continental shelf, it is geographically in Europe. @Noldorin Cyprus is clearly in Asia, geographically speaking. Culturally, it is European, however.
– Chieron
May 22 at 6:28
2
@LangLangC it is counted as Germanic, it seems to mostly have Hebrew (semitic) loanwords (many of which found its way into German, too), but the grammar is Germanic
– Chieron
May 22 at 6:29
2
It WP page pretty firmly places the Maltese as Semitic, and it isn't listed on any of their lists of creoles. Where's this answer's reference that someone credible agues otherwise? It did say that a hair over half its vocabulary has Romance (IE) roots, but there's far more to a language than just its vocabularly (just like there's far more to a computer programming language than just its reserved words and symbols).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 14:17
|
show 1 more comment
6
Cyprus being in Europe is not remotely debatable, despite it's location – at the least the larger Greek part. Culturally it is Greek (thus European), linguistically it is Greek, and ethnically many Greek Cypriots (and some Turkish Cypriots) still share a lot with other Greeks. Oh yeah, and did I mention it's a member state of the EU? Anyway, Malta is very much debatable, though @David Robinson addressed this point among others, and made a decent argument.
– Noldorin
May 22 at 1:20
8
@Noldorin Continents are determined by geography, not by culture. You really weaken your case when you say that at least part of Cyprus is in Europe. Either the whole island is in Europe or none of it is. The cultural argument clearly holds no water, for consider that the coast of Asia Minor was historically Greek. And do you know what the Greeks called it? "Asia".
– C Monsour
May 22 at 1:52
6
Malta is an island on the European continental shelf, it is geographically in Europe. @Noldorin Cyprus is clearly in Asia, geographically speaking. Culturally, it is European, however.
– Chieron
May 22 at 6:28
2
@LangLangC it is counted as Germanic, it seems to mostly have Hebrew (semitic) loanwords (many of which found its way into German, too), but the grammar is Germanic
– Chieron
May 22 at 6:29
2
It WP page pretty firmly places the Maltese as Semitic, and it isn't listed on any of their lists of creoles. Where's this answer's reference that someone credible agues otherwise? It did say that a hair over half its vocabulary has Romance (IE) roots, but there's far more to a language than just its vocabularly (just like there's far more to a computer programming language than just its reserved words and symbols).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 14:17
6
6
Cyprus being in Europe is not remotely debatable, despite it's location – at the least the larger Greek part. Culturally it is Greek (thus European), linguistically it is Greek, and ethnically many Greek Cypriots (and some Turkish Cypriots) still share a lot with other Greeks. Oh yeah, and did I mention it's a member state of the EU? Anyway, Malta is very much debatable, though @David Robinson addressed this point among others, and made a decent argument.
– Noldorin
May 22 at 1:20
Cyprus being in Europe is not remotely debatable, despite it's location – at the least the larger Greek part. Culturally it is Greek (thus European), linguistically it is Greek, and ethnically many Greek Cypriots (and some Turkish Cypriots) still share a lot with other Greeks. Oh yeah, and did I mention it's a member state of the EU? Anyway, Malta is very much debatable, though @David Robinson addressed this point among others, and made a decent argument.
– Noldorin
May 22 at 1:20
8
8
@Noldorin Continents are determined by geography, not by culture. You really weaken your case when you say that at least part of Cyprus is in Europe. Either the whole island is in Europe or none of it is. The cultural argument clearly holds no water, for consider that the coast of Asia Minor was historically Greek. And do you know what the Greeks called it? "Asia".
– C Monsour
May 22 at 1:52
@Noldorin Continents are determined by geography, not by culture. You really weaken your case when you say that at least part of Cyprus is in Europe. Either the whole island is in Europe or none of it is. The cultural argument clearly holds no water, for consider that the coast of Asia Minor was historically Greek. And do you know what the Greeks called it? "Asia".
– C Monsour
May 22 at 1:52
6
6
Malta is an island on the European continental shelf, it is geographically in Europe. @Noldorin Cyprus is clearly in Asia, geographically speaking. Culturally, it is European, however.
– Chieron
May 22 at 6:28
Malta is an island on the European continental shelf, it is geographically in Europe. @Noldorin Cyprus is clearly in Asia, geographically speaking. Culturally, it is European, however.
– Chieron
May 22 at 6:28
2
2
@LangLangC it is counted as Germanic, it seems to mostly have Hebrew (semitic) loanwords (many of which found its way into German, too), but the grammar is Germanic
– Chieron
May 22 at 6:29
@LangLangC it is counted as Germanic, it seems to mostly have Hebrew (semitic) loanwords (many of which found its way into German, too), but the grammar is Germanic
– Chieron
May 22 at 6:29
2
2
It WP page pretty firmly places the Maltese as Semitic, and it isn't listed on any of their lists of creoles. Where's this answer's reference that someone credible agues otherwise? It did say that a hair over half its vocabulary has Romance (IE) roots, but there's far more to a language than just its vocabularly (just like there's far more to a computer programming language than just its reserved words and symbols).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 14:17
It WP page pretty firmly places the Maltese as Semitic, and it isn't listed on any of their lists of creoles. Where's this answer's reference that someone credible agues otherwise? It did say that a hair over half its vocabulary has Romance (IE) roots, but there's far more to a language than just its vocabularly (just like there's far more to a computer programming language than just its reserved words and symbols).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 14:17
|
show 1 more comment
I think Kalmyk has not been mentioned yet. And depending on what you define as "late modern", Chinese (e.g. in Liverpool) may also count.
edited May 22 at 9:58
Steve Bird
14.4k3 gold badges66 silver badges73 bronze badges
answered May 22 at 9:47
JanJan
1843 bronze badges
1
The Late Modern period in historical circles is generally taken to start in the mid 18th Century. This was picked specifically to avoid the innumerable little urban ethnic diaspora enclaves all over the world enabled by modern transportation (and to give transient minority populations time to assimilate if that's their inclination).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 14:24
2
Chinese definitely doesn't count. I think the OP makes it clear that we're only talking of languages that have some reasonable claim to being "native" or "long-established" in Europe.
– Noldorin
May 22 at 16:11
2
And yet Kazakh is supposed to count, because some areas west of the Ural river have been part of a Kazakh nation-state for an eternity of around 27.5 years (if I have calculated correctly).
– Jan
May 22 at 19:05
1
I agree, Kazakh probably shouldn't count either...
– Noldorin
May 22 at 20:18
6
There have been Kazakh native speakers in the area West of the Ural River for centuries, yes? So of course Kazakh should be on the list. If long-standing political independence were a requirement, you couldn't even count Basque.
– C Monsour
May 23 at 11:56
|
show 1 more comment
I think Kalmyk has not been mentioned yet. And depending on what you define as "late modern", Chinese (e.g. in Liverpool) may also count.
edited May 22 at 9:58
Steve Bird
14.4k3 gold badges66 silver badges73 bronze badges
answered May 22 at 9:47
JanJan
1843 bronze badges
1
The Late Modern period in historical circles is generally taken to start in the mid 18th Century. This was picked specifically to avoid the innumerable little urban ethnic diaspora enclaves all over the world enabled by modern transportation (and to give transient minority populations time to assimilate if that's their inclination).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 14:24
2
Chinese definitely doesn't count. I think the OP makes it clear that we're only talking of languages that have some reasonable claim to being "native" or "long-established" in Europe.
– Noldorin
May 22 at 16:11
2
And yet Kazakh is supposed to count, because some areas west of the Ural river have been part of a Kazakh nation-state for an eternity of around 27.5 years (if I have calculated correctly).
– Jan
May 22 at 19:05
1
I agree, Kazakh probably shouldn't count either...
– Noldorin
May 22 at 20:18
6
There have been Kazakh native speakers in the area West of the Ural River for centuries, yes? So of course Kazakh should be on the list. If long-standing political independence were a requirement, you couldn't even count Basque.
– C Monsour
May 23 at 11:56
|
show 1 more comment
I think Kalmyk has not been mentioned yet. And depending on what you define as "late modern", Chinese (e.g. in Liverpool) may also count.
edited May 22 at 9:58
Steve Bird
14.4k3 gold badges66 silver badges73 bronze badges
answered May 22 at 9:47
JanJan
1843 bronze badges
I think Kalmyk has not been mentioned yet. And depending on what you define as "late modern", Chinese (e.g. in Liverpool) may also count.
edited May 22 at 9:58
Steve Bird
14.4k3 gold badges66 silver badges73 bronze badges
answered May 22 at 9:47
JanJan
1843 bronze badges
edited May 22 at 9:58
Steve Bird
14.4k3 gold badges66 silver badges73 bronze badges
edited May 22 at 9:58
Steve Bird
14.4k3 gold badges66 silver badges73 bronze badges
edited May 22 at 9:58
Steve Bird
14.4k3 gold badges66 silver badges73 bronze badges
14.4k3 gold badges66 silver badges73 bronze badges
answered May 22 at 9:47
JanJan
1843 bronze badges
answered May 22 at 9:47
JanJan
1843 bronze badges
answered May 22 at 9:47
JanJan
1843 bronze badges
1843 bronze badges
1
The Late Modern period in historical circles is generally taken to start in the mid 18th Century. This was picked specifically to avoid the innumerable little urban ethnic diaspora enclaves all over the world enabled by modern transportation (and to give transient minority populations time to assimilate if that's their inclination).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 14:24
2
Chinese definitely doesn't count. I think the OP makes it clear that we're only talking of languages that have some reasonable claim to being "native" or "long-established" in Europe.
– Noldorin
May 22 at 16:11
2
And yet Kazakh is supposed to count, because some areas west of the Ural river have been part of a Kazakh nation-state for an eternity of around 27.5 years (if I have calculated correctly).
– Jan
May 22 at 19:05
1
I agree, Kazakh probably shouldn't count either...
– Noldorin
May 22 at 20:18
6
There have been Kazakh native speakers in the area West of the Ural River for centuries, yes? So of course Kazakh should be on the list. If long-standing political independence were a requirement, you couldn't even count Basque.
– C Monsour
May 23 at 11:56
|
show 1 more comment
1
The Late Modern period in historical circles is generally taken to start in the mid 18th Century. This was picked specifically to avoid the innumerable little urban ethnic diaspora enclaves all over the world enabled by modern transportation (and to give transient minority populations time to assimilate if that's their inclination).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 14:24
2
Chinese definitely doesn't count. I think the OP makes it clear that we're only talking of languages that have some reasonable claim to being "native" or "long-established" in Europe.
– Noldorin
May 22 at 16:11
2
And yet Kazakh is supposed to count, because some areas west of the Ural river have been part of a Kazakh nation-state for an eternity of around 27.5 years (if I have calculated correctly).
– Jan
May 22 at 19:05
1
I agree, Kazakh probably shouldn't count either...
– Noldorin
May 22 at 20:18
6
There have been Kazakh native speakers in the area West of the Ural River for centuries, yes? So of course Kazakh should be on the list. If long-standing political independence were a requirement, you couldn't even count Basque.
– C Monsour
May 23 at 11:56
1
1
The Late Modern period in historical circles is generally taken to start in the mid 18th Century. This was picked specifically to avoid the innumerable little urban ethnic diaspora enclaves all over the world enabled by modern transportation (and to give transient minority populations time to assimilate if that's their inclination).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 14:24
The Late Modern period in historical circles is generally taken to start in the mid 18th Century. This was picked specifically to avoid the innumerable little urban ethnic diaspora enclaves all over the world enabled by modern transportation (and to give transient minority populations time to assimilate if that's their inclination).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 14:24
2
2
Chinese definitely doesn't count. I think the OP makes it clear that we're only talking of languages that have some reasonable claim to being "native" or "long-established" in Europe.
– Noldorin
May 22 at 16:11
Chinese definitely doesn't count. I think the OP makes it clear that we're only talking of languages that have some reasonable claim to being "native" or "long-established" in Europe.
– Noldorin
May 22 at 16:11
2
2
And yet Kazakh is supposed to count, because some areas west of the Ural river have been part of a Kazakh nation-state for an eternity of around 27.5 years (if I have calculated correctly).
– Jan
May 22 at 19:05
And yet Kazakh is supposed to count, because some areas west of the Ural river have been part of a Kazakh nation-state for an eternity of around 27.5 years (if I have calculated correctly).
– Jan
May 22 at 19:05
1
1
I agree, Kazakh probably shouldn't count either...
– Noldorin
May 22 at 20:18
I agree, Kazakh probably shouldn't count either...
– Noldorin
May 22 at 20:18
6
6
There have been Kazakh native speakers in the area West of the Ural River for centuries, yes? So of course Kazakh should be on the list. If long-standing political independence were a requirement, you couldn't even count Basque.
– C Monsour
May 23 at 11:56
There have been Kazakh native speakers in the area West of the Ural River for centuries, yes? So of course Kazakh should be on the list. If long-standing political independence were a requirement, you couldn't even count Basque.
– C Monsour
May 23 at 11:56
|
show 1 more comment
This answer is about Yiddish. There have been various comments, which I build on and add to, as there are several complications:
- Does it result from a "modern migration"?
- Is Yiddish spoken in Europe?
- Is it an Indo-European language?
Let us look at each of these.
1. Does it result from a "modern migration"?
Now that the question has been clarified with a link to a definition of modern, the answer is clearly no. So it is eligible.
2. Is Yiddish spoken in Europe?
Yes, it has been for centuries, although it is rapidly dying out. So it should be counted as a European language
3. Is it an Indo-European language?
The quick answer, according to most sources on the internet, is that it a Germanic language (thus IE) with Hebrew (thus Semitic) added.
But I don't think it is fair to classify any language as IE or non-IE based solely on a simple majority. If there are significant elements from both IE and non-IE, then it is linguistically important as both an IE and a non-IE language, in my view. If we were to go with a simple majority view then perhaps the UK should be excluded from Europe based on the fact that 52% of the population does not want it included in Europe.
When we get to the question of how much Hebrew there is in Yiddish, and thus whether Yiddish makes a significant contribution to non-IE European language, I came across a problem. No easy-to-find online source in English told me. This reflects the low status of Yiddish in the English-speaking world in the 21st century.
I turned to French Wikipedia which stated that the vocabulary is 10-15% Semitic. I would say that this figure, by itself, means that Yiddish should be included, as it means there is a Semitic element in European language, even if it is not large.
But there is a much more important consideration: whereas Maltese has had no significant effect on any other European language that I can find (notwithstanding this list of words I have never heard of), Yiddish has been the conduit for a number of Semitic words to enter not only German and Polish, but also English (paying attention to those marked as Hebrew in origin) (many of which I have heard of) and French.
So, given that Yiddish is the European language which has introduced many (and possibly the most) Semitic words into English, German, Polish and French, I think it deserves a place on the list, regardless of its predominantly IE grammar and the particular percentage of words of Semitic origin.
answered May 22 at 17:20
David RobinsonDavid Robinson
6288 bronze badges
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
3
Do you have a credible source to reference this claim that Yiddish is not Indo-European? This website is meant to be descriptive, not proscriptive. If you have a novel idea about how historical things are to be viewed or classified that goes completely against the current scholarly consensus, we'd ask that you first submit it to the appropriate journals and get it published (peer-reviewed, etc.).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 18:12
2
Every detailed tree of Indo-European languages I've seen places Yiddish squarely in the Germanic branch.
– Steven Burnap
May 22 at 19:47
1
I mean, around 60% of English words are of Latin origin, but no one in their right mind would argue that English is a Romance language.
– Denis Nardin
May 22 at 20:40
3
@David Robinson Please cite a text that treats Norman words in English as not being loan words.
– C Monsour
May 23 at 16:15
3
A point no one has mentioned: the Semitic words in Yiddish are, to a large extent, related to Jewish rituals and practices. (An example - I don't recall the source; might have been one of Max Weinreich's books - is how Yiddish uses a Germanic-derived word (zun) for the sun, but a Hebrew-derived one (levone) for the moon, because the moon figures much more in Jewish practice - there is a monthly ceremony of blessing G-d for creating and renewing it.) Which makes Yiddish more in the nature of a jargon, not unlike "medicalese," for example, which no one would consider a separate language.
– Meir
May 24 at 4:23
|
show 12 more comments
This answer is about Yiddish. There have been various comments, which I build on and add to, as there are several complications:
- Does it result from a "modern migration"?
- Is Yiddish spoken in Europe?
- Is it an Indo-European language?
Let us look at each of these.
1. Does it result from a "modern migration"?
Now that the question has been clarified with a link to a definition of modern, the answer is clearly no. So it is eligible.
2. Is Yiddish spoken in Europe?
Yes, it has been for centuries, although it is rapidly dying out. So it should be counted as a European language
3. Is it an Indo-European language?
The quick answer, according to most sources on the internet, is that it a Germanic language (thus IE) with Hebrew (thus Semitic) added.
But I don't think it is fair to classify any language as IE or non-IE based solely on a simple majority. If there are significant elements from both IE and non-IE, then it is linguistically important as both an IE and a non-IE language, in my view. If we were to go with a simple majority view then perhaps the UK should be excluded from Europe based on the fact that 52% of the population does not want it included in Europe.
When we get to the question of how much Hebrew there is in Yiddish, and thus whether Yiddish makes a significant contribution to non-IE European language, I came across a problem. No easy-to-find online source in English told me. This reflects the low status of Yiddish in the English-speaking world in the 21st century.
I turned to French Wikipedia which stated that the vocabulary is 10-15% Semitic. I would say that this figure, by itself, means that Yiddish should be included, as it means there is a Semitic element in European language, even if it is not large.
But there is a much more important consideration: whereas Maltese has had no significant effect on any other European language that I can find (notwithstanding this list of words I have never heard of), Yiddish has been the conduit for a number of Semitic words to enter not only German and Polish, but also English (paying attention to those marked as Hebrew in origin) (many of which I have heard of) and French.
So, given that Yiddish is the European language which has introduced many (and possibly the most) Semitic words into English, German, Polish and French, I think it deserves a place on the list, regardless of its predominantly IE grammar and the particular percentage of words of Semitic origin.
answered May 22 at 17:20
David RobinsonDavid Robinson
6288 bronze badges
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
3
Do you have a credible source to reference this claim that Yiddish is not Indo-European? This website is meant to be descriptive, not proscriptive. If you have a novel idea about how historical things are to be viewed or classified that goes completely against the current scholarly consensus, we'd ask that you first submit it to the appropriate journals and get it published (peer-reviewed, etc.).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 18:12
2
Every detailed tree of Indo-European languages I've seen places Yiddish squarely in the Germanic branch.
– Steven Burnap
May 22 at 19:47
1
I mean, around 60% of English words are of Latin origin, but no one in their right mind would argue that English is a Romance language.
– Denis Nardin
May 22 at 20:40
3
@David Robinson Please cite a text that treats Norman words in English as not being loan words.
– C Monsour
May 23 at 16:15
3
A point no one has mentioned: the Semitic words in Yiddish are, to a large extent, related to Jewish rituals and practices. (An example - I don't recall the source; might have been one of Max Weinreich's books - is how Yiddish uses a Germanic-derived word (zun) for the sun, but a Hebrew-derived one (levone) for the moon, because the moon figures much more in Jewish practice - there is a monthly ceremony of blessing G-d for creating and renewing it.) Which makes Yiddish more in the nature of a jargon, not unlike "medicalese," for example, which no one would consider a separate language.
– Meir
May 24 at 4:23
|
show 12 more comments
This answer is about Yiddish. There have been various comments, which I build on and add to, as there are several complications:
- Does it result from a "modern migration"?
- Is Yiddish spoken in Europe?
- Is it an Indo-European language?
Let us look at each of these.
1. Does it result from a "modern migration"?
Now that the question has been clarified with a link to a definition of modern, the answer is clearly no. So it is eligible.
2. Is Yiddish spoken in Europe?
Yes, it has been for centuries, although it is rapidly dying out. So it should be counted as a European language
3. Is it an Indo-European language?
The quick answer, according to most sources on the internet, is that it a Germanic language (thus IE) with Hebrew (thus Semitic) added.
But I don't think it is fair to classify any language as IE or non-IE based solely on a simple majority. If there are significant elements from both IE and non-IE, then it is linguistically important as both an IE and a non-IE language, in my view. If we were to go with a simple majority view then perhaps the UK should be excluded from Europe based on the fact that 52% of the population does not want it included in Europe.
When we get to the question of how much Hebrew there is in Yiddish, and thus whether Yiddish makes a significant contribution to non-IE European language, I came across a problem. No easy-to-find online source in English told me. This reflects the low status of Yiddish in the English-speaking world in the 21st century.
I turned to French Wikipedia which stated that the vocabulary is 10-15% Semitic. I would say that this figure, by itself, means that Yiddish should be included, as it means there is a Semitic element in European language, even if it is not large.
But there is a much more important consideration: whereas Maltese has had no significant effect on any other European language that I can find (notwithstanding this list of words I have never heard of), Yiddish has been the conduit for a number of Semitic words to enter not only German and Polish, but also English (paying attention to those marked as Hebrew in origin) (many of which I have heard of) and French.
So, given that Yiddish is the European language which has introduced many (and possibly the most) Semitic words into English, German, Polish and French, I think it deserves a place on the list, regardless of its predominantly IE grammar and the particular percentage of words of Semitic origin.
answered May 22 at 17:20
David RobinsonDavid Robinson
6288 bronze badges
This answer is about Yiddish. There have been various comments, which I build on and add to, as there are several complications:
- Does it result from a "modern migration"?
- Is Yiddish spoken in Europe?
- Is it an Indo-European language?
Let us look at each of these.
1. Does it result from a "modern migration"?
Now that the question has been clarified with a link to a definition of modern, the answer is clearly no. So it is eligible.
2. Is Yiddish spoken in Europe?
Yes, it has been for centuries, although it is rapidly dying out. So it should be counted as a European language
3. Is it an Indo-European language?
The quick answer, according to most sources on the internet, is that it a Germanic language (thus IE) with Hebrew (thus Semitic) added.
But I don't think it is fair to classify any language as IE or non-IE based solely on a simple majority. If there are significant elements from both IE and non-IE, then it is linguistically important as both an IE and a non-IE language, in my view. If we were to go with a simple majority view then perhaps the UK should be excluded from Europe based on the fact that 52% of the population does not want it included in Europe.
When we get to the question of how much Hebrew there is in Yiddish, and thus whether Yiddish makes a significant contribution to non-IE European language, I came across a problem. No easy-to-find online source in English told me. This reflects the low status of Yiddish in the English-speaking world in the 21st century.
I turned to French Wikipedia which stated that the vocabulary is 10-15% Semitic. I would say that this figure, by itself, means that Yiddish should be included, as it means there is a Semitic element in European language, even if it is not large.
But there is a much more important consideration: whereas Maltese has had no significant effect on any other European language that I can find (notwithstanding this list of words I have never heard of), Yiddish has been the conduit for a number of Semitic words to enter not only German and Polish, but also English (paying attention to those marked as Hebrew in origin) (many of which I have heard of) and French.
So, given that Yiddish is the European language which has introduced many (and possibly the most) Semitic words into English, German, Polish and French, I think it deserves a place on the list, regardless of its predominantly IE grammar and the particular percentage of words of Semitic origin.
answered May 22 at 17:20
David RobinsonDavid Robinson
6288 bronze badges
answered May 22 at 17:20
David RobinsonDavid Robinson
6288 bronze badges
answered May 22 at 17:20
David RobinsonDavid Robinson
6288 bronze badges
answered May 22 at 17:20
David RobinsonDavid Robinson
6288 bronze badges
6288 bronze badges
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
3
Do you have a credible source to reference this claim that Yiddish is not Indo-European? This website is meant to be descriptive, not proscriptive. If you have a novel idea about how historical things are to be viewed or classified that goes completely against the current scholarly consensus, we'd ask that you first submit it to the appropriate journals and get it published (peer-reviewed, etc.).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 18:12
2
Every detailed tree of Indo-European languages I've seen places Yiddish squarely in the Germanic branch.
– Steven Burnap
May 22 at 19:47
1
I mean, around 60% of English words are of Latin origin, but no one in their right mind would argue that English is a Romance language.
– Denis Nardin
May 22 at 20:40
3
@David Robinson Please cite a text that treats Norman words in English as not being loan words.
– C Monsour
May 23 at 16:15
3
A point no one has mentioned: the Semitic words in Yiddish are, to a large extent, related to Jewish rituals and practices. (An example - I don't recall the source; might have been one of Max Weinreich's books - is how Yiddish uses a Germanic-derived word (zun) for the sun, but a Hebrew-derived one (levone) for the moon, because the moon figures much more in Jewish practice - there is a monthly ceremony of blessing G-d for creating and renewing it.) Which makes Yiddish more in the nature of a jargon, not unlike "medicalese," for example, which no one would consider a separate language.
– Meir
May 24 at 4:23
|
show 12 more comments
3
Do you have a credible source to reference this claim that Yiddish is not Indo-European? This website is meant to be descriptive, not proscriptive. If you have a novel idea about how historical things are to be viewed or classified that goes completely against the current scholarly consensus, we'd ask that you first submit it to the appropriate journals and get it published (peer-reviewed, etc.).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 18:12
2
Every detailed tree of Indo-European languages I've seen places Yiddish squarely in the Germanic branch.
– Steven Burnap
May 22 at 19:47
1
I mean, around 60% of English words are of Latin origin, but no one in their right mind would argue that English is a Romance language.
– Denis Nardin
May 22 at 20:40
3
@David Robinson Please cite a text that treats Norman words in English as not being loan words.
– C Monsour
May 23 at 16:15
3
A point no one has mentioned: the Semitic words in Yiddish are, to a large extent, related to Jewish rituals and practices. (An example - I don't recall the source; might have been one of Max Weinreich's books - is how Yiddish uses a Germanic-derived word (zun) for the sun, but a Hebrew-derived one (levone) for the moon, because the moon figures much more in Jewish practice - there is a monthly ceremony of blessing G-d for creating and renewing it.) Which makes Yiddish more in the nature of a jargon, not unlike "medicalese," for example, which no one would consider a separate language.
– Meir
May 24 at 4:23
3
3
Do you have a credible source to reference this claim that Yiddish is not Indo-European? This website is meant to be descriptive, not proscriptive. If you have a novel idea about how historical things are to be viewed or classified that goes completely against the current scholarly consensus, we'd ask that you first submit it to the appropriate journals and get it published (peer-reviewed, etc.).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 18:12
Do you have a credible source to reference this claim that Yiddish is not Indo-European? This website is meant to be descriptive, not proscriptive. If you have a novel idea about how historical things are to be viewed or classified that goes completely against the current scholarly consensus, we'd ask that you first submit it to the appropriate journals and get it published (peer-reviewed, etc.).
– T.E.D.♦
May 22 at 18:12
2
2
Every detailed tree of Indo-European languages I've seen places Yiddish squarely in the Germanic branch.
– Steven Burnap
May 22 at 19:47
Every detailed tree of Indo-European languages I've seen places Yiddish squarely in the Germanic branch.
– Steven Burnap
May 22 at 19:47
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1
I mean, around 60% of English words are of Latin origin, but no one in their right mind would argue that English is a Romance language.
– Denis Nardin
May 22 at 20:40
I mean, around 60% of English words are of Latin origin, but no one in their right mind would argue that English is a Romance language.
– Denis Nardin
May 22 at 20:40
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3
@David Robinson Please cite a text that treats Norman words in English as not being loan words.
– C Monsour
May 23 at 16:15
@David Robinson Please cite a text that treats Norman words in English as not being loan words.
– C Monsour
May 23 at 16:15
3
3
A point no one has mentioned: the Semitic words in Yiddish are, to a large extent, related to Jewish rituals and practices. (An example - I don't recall the source; might have been one of Max Weinreich's books - is how Yiddish uses a Germanic-derived word (zun) for the sun, but a Hebrew-derived one (levone) for the moon, because the moon figures much more in Jewish practice - there is a monthly ceremony of blessing G-d for creating and renewing it.) Which makes Yiddish more in the nature of a jargon, not unlike "medicalese," for example, which no one would consider a separate language.
– Meir
May 24 at 4:23
A point no one has mentioned: the Semitic words in Yiddish are, to a large extent, related to Jewish rituals and practices. (An example - I don't recall the source; might have been one of Max Weinreich's books - is how Yiddish uses a Germanic-derived word (zun) for the sun, but a Hebrew-derived one (levone) for the moon, because the moon figures much more in Jewish practice - there is a monthly ceremony of blessing G-d for creating and renewing it.) Which makes Yiddish more in the nature of a jargon, not unlike "medicalese," for example, which no one would consider a separate language.
– Meir
May 24 at 4:23
|
show 12 more comments
According to Dr. Seth Lerer, of The Great Courses and University of California San Diego, the Georgian language 's parentage is unknown, so it may not be Indo-European.
answered May 22 at 22:09
MikeMike
211 bronze badge
Do you have any citations that Georgian might be Indo-European? The only proposed connection between the Kartvelian languages and IE that I am aware of is Nostratic.
– chepner
May 23 at 20:19
I don't. The closest I can come to that is very anecdotal. I have discussed this with a Russian girl whose mother is from Georgia. She thinks it must be Indo-European based on the fact that, while speaking in the Georgian language, they (the Georgian people) use a lot of Russian words. This, of course, does not constitute any amount of scientific rigor. Given the close proximity of Georgia and Russia and Russia's overlordship of Georgia over the last century, it's not surprising that plenty of Russian words have mixed into the Georgian vernacular. That's all I've got concerning your question.
– Mike
May 29 at 18:44
add a comment |
According to Dr. Seth Lerer, of The Great Courses and University of California San Diego, the Georgian language 's parentage is unknown, so it may not be Indo-European.
answered May 22 at 22:09
MikeMike
211 bronze badge
Do you have any citations that Georgian might be Indo-European? The only proposed connection between the Kartvelian languages and IE that I am aware of is Nostratic.
– chepner
May 23 at 20:19
I don't. The closest I can come to that is very anecdotal. I have discussed this with a Russian girl whose mother is from Georgia. She thinks it must be Indo-European based on the fact that, while speaking in the Georgian language, they (the Georgian people) use a lot of Russian words. This, of course, does not constitute any amount of scientific rigor. Given the close proximity of Georgia and Russia and Russia's overlordship of Georgia over the last century, it's not surprising that plenty of Russian words have mixed into the Georgian vernacular. That's all I've got concerning your question.
– Mike
May 29 at 18:44
add a comment |
According to Dr. Seth Lerer, of The Great Courses and University of California San Diego, the Georgian language 's parentage is unknown, so it may not be Indo-European.
answered May 22 at 22:09
MikeMike
211 bronze badge
According to Dr. Seth Lerer, of The Great Courses and University of California San Diego, the Georgian language 's parentage is unknown, so it may not be Indo-European.
answered May 22 at 22:09
MikeMike
211 bronze badge
answered May 22 at 22:09
MikeMike
211 bronze badge
answered May 22 at 22:09
MikeMike
211 bronze badge
answered May 22 at 22:09
MikeMike
211 bronze badge
211 bronze badge
Do you have any citations that Georgian might be Indo-European? The only proposed connection between the Kartvelian languages and IE that I am aware of is Nostratic.
– chepner
May 23 at 20:19
I don't. The closest I can come to that is very anecdotal. I have discussed this with a Russian girl whose mother is from Georgia. She thinks it must be Indo-European based on the fact that, while speaking in the Georgian language, they (the Georgian people) use a lot of Russian words. This, of course, does not constitute any amount of scientific rigor. Given the close proximity of Georgia and Russia and Russia's overlordship of Georgia over the last century, it's not surprising that plenty of Russian words have mixed into the Georgian vernacular. That's all I've got concerning your question.
– Mike
May 29 at 18:44
add a comment |
Do you have any citations that Georgian might be Indo-European? The only proposed connection between the Kartvelian languages and IE that I am aware of is Nostratic.
– chepner
May 23 at 20:19
I don't. The closest I can come to that is very anecdotal. I have discussed this with a Russian girl whose mother is from Georgia. She thinks it must be Indo-European based on the fact that, while speaking in the Georgian language, they (the Georgian people) use a lot of Russian words. This, of course, does not constitute any amount of scientific rigor. Given the close proximity of Georgia and Russia and Russia's overlordship of Georgia over the last century, it's not surprising that plenty of Russian words have mixed into the Georgian vernacular. That's all I've got concerning your question.
– Mike
May 29 at 18:44
Do you have any citations that Georgian might be Indo-European? The only proposed connection between the Kartvelian languages and IE that I am aware of is Nostratic.
– chepner
May 23 at 20:19
Do you have any citations that Georgian might be Indo-European? The only proposed connection between the Kartvelian languages and IE that I am aware of is Nostratic.
– chepner
May 23 at 20:19
I don't. The closest I can come to that is very anecdotal. I have discussed this with a Russian girl whose mother is from Georgia. She thinks it must be Indo-European based on the fact that, while speaking in the Georgian language, they (the Georgian people) use a lot of Russian words. This, of course, does not constitute any amount of scientific rigor. Given the close proximity of Georgia and Russia and Russia's overlordship of Georgia over the last century, it's not surprising that plenty of Russian words have mixed into the Georgian vernacular. That's all I've got concerning your question.
– Mike
May 29 at 18:44
I don't. The closest I can come to that is very anecdotal. I have discussed this with a Russian girl whose mother is from Georgia. She thinks it must be Indo-European based on the fact that, while speaking in the Georgian language, they (the Georgian people) use a lot of Russian words. This, of course, does not constitute any amount of scientific rigor. Given the close proximity of Georgia and Russia and Russia's overlordship of Georgia over the last century, it's not surprising that plenty of Russian words have mixed into the Georgian vernacular. That's all I've got concerning your question.
– Mike
May 29 at 18:44
add a comment |
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I see you've already got several high quality answers here so it's too late to change anything, but this question would have been better asked on Linguistics.SE.
– CJ Dennis
May 22 at 3:39
1
@LangLangC I don't think most definitions (perhaps not any geographic definitions) of Europe include parts of Georgia. The most modern definition uses the ridge of the Caucasus as the border, and that's the northern border of Georgia. Most older definitions placed the Europe/Asia border even farther north. The only claims I see of Georgia as being European are based on culture, which doesn't seem to me to be valid. You might as well call Canada European on that basis!
– C Monsour
May 22 at 11:00
1
@DavidRobinson I asked in Linguistics since I find the comment and possible answers to it very interesting.
– Pavel
May 23 at 14:21
1
why are you showing a map with the UN geoscheme for Europe when it is arguably not a "standard accepted boundary"? @Noldorin regards Cyprus as Europe, do you? What about French Guiana, which is a part of the EU?
– Janus Troelsen
May 24 at 0:58