What to do with wrong results in talks?
I am in pure mathematics. Suppose I am giving a talk about my work, and another researcher(s) in my field has published a paper claiming to be an improvement or generalisation of my result, but I either believe this other paper is wrong, or that it is a trivial consequence of my own result. Should I:
state this other result in my talk with no comment
mention the other result with mild doubts (e.g. say 'so-and-so claims this, but I haven't had time to look at the paper properly')
mention the other result and state clearly that I think it's wrong/trivial
don't mention it at all / ignore it.
I should also add that I don't know whether the author(s) of the other paper will be at this conference.
Edit: I have a list of speakers but not of participants, so I know the other researcher is not speaking, but don't know if they will be in the audience of my talk.
mathematics conference presentation
New contributor
|
show 9 more comments
I am in pure mathematics. Suppose I am giving a talk about my work, and another researcher(s) in my field has published a paper claiming to be an improvement or generalisation of my result, but I either believe this other paper is wrong, or that it is a trivial consequence of my own result. Should I:
state this other result in my talk with no comment
mention the other result with mild doubts (e.g. say 'so-and-so claims this, but I haven't had time to look at the paper properly')
mention the other result and state clearly that I think it's wrong/trivial
don't mention it at all / ignore it.
I should also add that I don't know whether the author(s) of the other paper will be at this conference.
Edit: I have a list of speakers but not of participants, so I know the other researcher is not speaking, but don't know if they will be in the audience of my talk.
mathematics conference presentation
New contributor
15
Did you discuss this with the other researcher? Usually, the first thing to do on discovering an error or unclarity is contacting the author with a question (usually these things turn out to be misunderstandings, and the sooner they are corrected the better for everyone).
– darij grinberg
16 hours ago
3
Are you asking two hypothetical questions in parallel (i.e. you expect an answer to "what if I believe the paper is wrong?" and another, perhaps similar, answer to "what if I believe the paper's results are a trivial conclusion of my results?")? Or are you asking "what if I believe the paper must either be wrong or a trivial extension of my results but I haven't had a chance to really check to verify which it is?" If it's the third case, you're kind of a jerk.
– Ian
14 hours ago
1
(Cont.) In terms of the other two possibilities, IMO these warrant rather different responses. If you think the paper is wrong, you should contact the author in private. If you think the paper is trivial given your results, unless it also uses your method, you should mention the result in your talk as a result that's easy to obtain using your method, but that other people have obtained independently using other (hopefully, from your point of view, more complicated) methods. If you think the paper is trivial and it does use your method, then I don't really know what to tell you.
– Ian
14 hours ago
10
Being wrong and being a trivial consequence of your work are two very different things. Is there some reason you're asking both at once?
– Pete L. Clark
13 hours ago
1
If it is a trivial consequence, but it advances the field at least a little, it is a result. If it's trivial, you might found this result by yourself. If you didn't, but someone else did, then it's their gain and your loss. The matter of triviality is substantially different than being wrong. Proving that 7 is a prime is trivial; proving that 8 is a prime is wrong.
– corey979
13 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
I am in pure mathematics. Suppose I am giving a talk about my work, and another researcher(s) in my field has published a paper claiming to be an improvement or generalisation of my result, but I either believe this other paper is wrong, or that it is a trivial consequence of my own result. Should I:
state this other result in my talk with no comment
mention the other result with mild doubts (e.g. say 'so-and-so claims this, but I haven't had time to look at the paper properly')
mention the other result and state clearly that I think it's wrong/trivial
don't mention it at all / ignore it.
I should also add that I don't know whether the author(s) of the other paper will be at this conference.
Edit: I have a list of speakers but not of participants, so I know the other researcher is not speaking, but don't know if they will be in the audience of my talk.
mathematics conference presentation
New contributor
I am in pure mathematics. Suppose I am giving a talk about my work, and another researcher(s) in my field has published a paper claiming to be an improvement or generalisation of my result, but I either believe this other paper is wrong, or that it is a trivial consequence of my own result. Should I:
state this other result in my talk with no comment
mention the other result with mild doubts (e.g. say 'so-and-so claims this, but I haven't had time to look at the paper properly')
mention the other result and state clearly that I think it's wrong/trivial
don't mention it at all / ignore it.
I should also add that I don't know whether the author(s) of the other paper will be at this conference.
Edit: I have a list of speakers but not of participants, so I know the other researcher is not speaking, but don't know if they will be in the audience of my talk.
mathematics conference presentation
mathematics conference presentation
New contributor
New contributor
edited 2 hours ago
Whatif
New contributor
asked 16 hours ago
WhatifWhatif
574
574
New contributor
New contributor
15
Did you discuss this with the other researcher? Usually, the first thing to do on discovering an error or unclarity is contacting the author with a question (usually these things turn out to be misunderstandings, and the sooner they are corrected the better for everyone).
– darij grinberg
16 hours ago
3
Are you asking two hypothetical questions in parallel (i.e. you expect an answer to "what if I believe the paper is wrong?" and another, perhaps similar, answer to "what if I believe the paper's results are a trivial conclusion of my results?")? Or are you asking "what if I believe the paper must either be wrong or a trivial extension of my results but I haven't had a chance to really check to verify which it is?" If it's the third case, you're kind of a jerk.
– Ian
14 hours ago
1
(Cont.) In terms of the other two possibilities, IMO these warrant rather different responses. If you think the paper is wrong, you should contact the author in private. If you think the paper is trivial given your results, unless it also uses your method, you should mention the result in your talk as a result that's easy to obtain using your method, but that other people have obtained independently using other (hopefully, from your point of view, more complicated) methods. If you think the paper is trivial and it does use your method, then I don't really know what to tell you.
– Ian
14 hours ago
10
Being wrong and being a trivial consequence of your work are two very different things. Is there some reason you're asking both at once?
– Pete L. Clark
13 hours ago
1
If it is a trivial consequence, but it advances the field at least a little, it is a result. If it's trivial, you might found this result by yourself. If you didn't, but someone else did, then it's their gain and your loss. The matter of triviality is substantially different than being wrong. Proving that 7 is a prime is trivial; proving that 8 is a prime is wrong.
– corey979
13 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
15
Did you discuss this with the other researcher? Usually, the first thing to do on discovering an error or unclarity is contacting the author with a question (usually these things turn out to be misunderstandings, and the sooner they are corrected the better for everyone).
– darij grinberg
16 hours ago
3
Are you asking two hypothetical questions in parallel (i.e. you expect an answer to "what if I believe the paper is wrong?" and another, perhaps similar, answer to "what if I believe the paper's results are a trivial conclusion of my results?")? Or are you asking "what if I believe the paper must either be wrong or a trivial extension of my results but I haven't had a chance to really check to verify which it is?" If it's the third case, you're kind of a jerk.
– Ian
14 hours ago
1
(Cont.) In terms of the other two possibilities, IMO these warrant rather different responses. If you think the paper is wrong, you should contact the author in private. If you think the paper is trivial given your results, unless it also uses your method, you should mention the result in your talk as a result that's easy to obtain using your method, but that other people have obtained independently using other (hopefully, from your point of view, more complicated) methods. If you think the paper is trivial and it does use your method, then I don't really know what to tell you.
– Ian
14 hours ago
10
Being wrong and being a trivial consequence of your work are two very different things. Is there some reason you're asking both at once?
– Pete L. Clark
13 hours ago
1
If it is a trivial consequence, but it advances the field at least a little, it is a result. If it's trivial, you might found this result by yourself. If you didn't, but someone else did, then it's their gain and your loss. The matter of triviality is substantially different than being wrong. Proving that 7 is a prime is trivial; proving that 8 is a prime is wrong.
– corey979
13 hours ago
15
15
Did you discuss this with the other researcher? Usually, the first thing to do on discovering an error or unclarity is contacting the author with a question (usually these things turn out to be misunderstandings, and the sooner they are corrected the better for everyone).
– darij grinberg
16 hours ago
Did you discuss this with the other researcher? Usually, the first thing to do on discovering an error or unclarity is contacting the author with a question (usually these things turn out to be misunderstandings, and the sooner they are corrected the better for everyone).
– darij grinberg
16 hours ago
3
3
Are you asking two hypothetical questions in parallel (i.e. you expect an answer to "what if I believe the paper is wrong?" and another, perhaps similar, answer to "what if I believe the paper's results are a trivial conclusion of my results?")? Or are you asking "what if I believe the paper must either be wrong or a trivial extension of my results but I haven't had a chance to really check to verify which it is?" If it's the third case, you're kind of a jerk.
– Ian
14 hours ago
Are you asking two hypothetical questions in parallel (i.e. you expect an answer to "what if I believe the paper is wrong?" and another, perhaps similar, answer to "what if I believe the paper's results are a trivial conclusion of my results?")? Or are you asking "what if I believe the paper must either be wrong or a trivial extension of my results but I haven't had a chance to really check to verify which it is?" If it's the third case, you're kind of a jerk.
– Ian
14 hours ago
1
1
(Cont.) In terms of the other two possibilities, IMO these warrant rather different responses. If you think the paper is wrong, you should contact the author in private. If you think the paper is trivial given your results, unless it also uses your method, you should mention the result in your talk as a result that's easy to obtain using your method, but that other people have obtained independently using other (hopefully, from your point of view, more complicated) methods. If you think the paper is trivial and it does use your method, then I don't really know what to tell you.
– Ian
14 hours ago
(Cont.) In terms of the other two possibilities, IMO these warrant rather different responses. If you think the paper is wrong, you should contact the author in private. If you think the paper is trivial given your results, unless it also uses your method, you should mention the result in your talk as a result that's easy to obtain using your method, but that other people have obtained independently using other (hopefully, from your point of view, more complicated) methods. If you think the paper is trivial and it does use your method, then I don't really know what to tell you.
– Ian
14 hours ago
10
10
Being wrong and being a trivial consequence of your work are two very different things. Is there some reason you're asking both at once?
– Pete L. Clark
13 hours ago
Being wrong and being a trivial consequence of your work are two very different things. Is there some reason you're asking both at once?
– Pete L. Clark
13 hours ago
1
1
If it is a trivial consequence, but it advances the field at least a little, it is a result. If it's trivial, you might found this result by yourself. If you didn't, but someone else did, then it's their gain and your loss. The matter of triviality is substantially different than being wrong. Proving that 7 is a prime is trivial; proving that 8 is a prime is wrong.
– corey979
13 hours ago
If it is a trivial consequence, but it advances the field at least a little, it is a result. If it's trivial, you might found this result by yourself. If you didn't, but someone else did, then it's their gain and your loss. The matter of triviality is substantially different than being wrong. Proving that 7 is a prime is trivial; proving that 8 is a prime is wrong.
– corey979
13 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
I either believe this other paper is wrong, or that it is a trivial consequence of my own result
Let me be blunt, if it's wrong and a trivial consequence of your own result, then your result is wrong too. Make up your mind: which is it? Wrong and trivial are not synonymous. The answer differs depending on which applies.
If you believe that the result is wrong.
- If you want to publicly humiliate the other researcher, then you can say during your talk that the other researcher's result is wrong. You will not make any friends and will not impress anyone by doing this.
- Otherwise, your first course of action is to talk about it with the other researcher in private. Have you even considered that you misunderstood something? Most people are reasonable, and if the result is truly wrong, then you will know how to act based on your discussion. Otherwise, this is a whole can of worms, and the answer depends on a ton of factors.
- If for some reason you have not had time to talk with the other researcher, then I would not mention the result at all, and elude the question if asked about it during the talk. If you really don't want to elude it, say that you are aware of a possible contradiction between your paper and the other one and that you are looking into it. (See, that's called tact.) I would also take the opportunity of having the other researcher in the same room to talk about it after the talk, in private.
If you believe the result is a "trivial" consequence of your work.
- If you want to insult the other researcher in public, then say that the other word is a "trivial consequence" of your own work during your talk. You will not make any friends and will not impress anyone by doing this.
The proper course of action, in my opinion, is to mention during your talk that indeed, you can recover older results using your theorems. You can even praise the other researcher for finding the older result without developing so much machinery. As an added bonus, this gives motivation for your own work: it's so interesting that it gives results that people already spent a lot of time proving before!- Or you can simply not mention it at all. If asked, you can say that it's nice to see other people being interested in your own work and finding applications.
Because, once again, I want to be very clear. It sounds like the other paper predates yours. Then credit for the "trivial" result also goes to the other researcher; we don't rename theorems as soon as someone finds a more general one. Moreover, what you consider to be a "trivial" consequence is not trivial at all. The other paper influenced you during your research, even indirectly. It probably gave you ideas about what results to prove, or even ideas for proofs. It's easier to follow in someone's footsteps than it is to break new ground.
New contributor
2
Why do you think that it sounds like the other paper predates that of the OP? I formed the opposite impression.
– Yemon Choi
16 hours ago
4
@YemonChoi is right, my paper predates the other one. Sorry if not clear in the question.
– Whatif
16 hours ago
3
@SolarMike OP is looking for someone to validate their intention of publicly humiliating someone else. I am setting the record straight.
– user106021
16 hours ago
7
@user106021 I disagree with your interpretation, even if I think the OP would do best not to cause a fuss. Once again, it does seem like you are jumping to conclusions or projecting. How do you know the OP isn't more junior than the people who claim to have improved their results? This seems very possible to me in pure maths
– Yemon Choi
15 hours ago
1
I disagree with this part: "say that you are aware of a possible contradiction between your paper and the other one and that you are looking into it. (See, that's called tact.)" In fact, either you are aware of a contradiction, which means you already verify that this is indeed the case, or you are not. In the latter case, you do not suggest that there may be a contradiction. Rather than tactful that is rude and potentially damaging to yourself if you end up being wrong. Better to simply say that you heard of the other result but have not had time to examine it.
– Andrés E. Caicedo
12 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
First, you should know that since your results appeared first (as you stated in a comment), you don’t actually have a strong self-interest to try to make the follow-up results of the other researcher look bad. In a typical scenario, their publishing something that improves or generalizes your result will actually make your own work look better, not worse, including possibly if their improvement is not trivial (actually a trivial improvement may be slightly more embarrassing to you, for example if they discover that a trivial modification to one of your proofs ends up proving a much stronger result. But even then you’ll get the credit of being the first person who published an innovative new proof technique that was used to prove that strong result). So all things considered, it’s pretty likely that your incentives are actually aligned with those of the other researcher, and being as kind and charitable to them as possible (without compromising your integrity, of course) will be beneficial not only to them but also to you. And remember you don’t have to discuss every private thought you have: you may think the improvement is trivial, but at the end of the day, who are you to say? That’s just an opinion anyway. Consider not mentioning it and letting people draw their own conclusions.
What I wrote above pertained to the scenario of a correct improvement. Coming to the other possibility you mentioned, if you believe the work of the other researcher is wrong, then it’s wrong and you shouldn’t pretend otherwise or feign ignorance but simply be matter-of-fact about it - if you discuss the result, state that you believe it’s wrong along with your level of certainty that that’s the case, without gloating or schadenfreude. Don’t say you haven’t had the time to look at it if that’s not true. But you may consider simply not mentioning the result at all if its relevance to what you are discussing is not high.
Incidentally, not mentioning the result may also end up offending the author if they are attending your talk... it’s a tricky business, academia! ;-) Anyway, good luck.
"Incidentally, not mentioning the result may also end up offending the author if they are attending your talk... " Yes, I am also worried about this. Thanks for the suggestions
– Whatif
2 hours ago
add a comment |
I lean towards "ignore it".
In addition to the issues of academic politics, there is the much bigger issue of confusing the audience. They have limited ability to process information (and math is particularly hard, even for mathematicians). If you mix in a "he said, she said" into your topic along with new results, you end up overloading the presentation. They will have a hard enough time learning from and following the talk, let alone doing justice to an issue of controversy. You just don't have time enough for a good exposition of the rival's arguments and your replies. If someone brings it up in Q&A, deal with it then.
Of course in a paper, you can/should be more all encompassing. But the goals of a paper are different than the goals of a talk.
New contributor
Yeah I seriously don't see where the harm is in not bringing it up. +1
– Mehrdad
10 hours ago
Well, I don't want to offend the author if they are there. But I think with these answers I'm also leaning to ignore it, thanks
– Whatif
2 hours ago
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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I either believe this other paper is wrong, or that it is a trivial consequence of my own result
Let me be blunt, if it's wrong and a trivial consequence of your own result, then your result is wrong too. Make up your mind: which is it? Wrong and trivial are not synonymous. The answer differs depending on which applies.
If you believe that the result is wrong.
- If you want to publicly humiliate the other researcher, then you can say during your talk that the other researcher's result is wrong. You will not make any friends and will not impress anyone by doing this.
- Otherwise, your first course of action is to talk about it with the other researcher in private. Have you even considered that you misunderstood something? Most people are reasonable, and if the result is truly wrong, then you will know how to act based on your discussion. Otherwise, this is a whole can of worms, and the answer depends on a ton of factors.
- If for some reason you have not had time to talk with the other researcher, then I would not mention the result at all, and elude the question if asked about it during the talk. If you really don't want to elude it, say that you are aware of a possible contradiction between your paper and the other one and that you are looking into it. (See, that's called tact.) I would also take the opportunity of having the other researcher in the same room to talk about it after the talk, in private.
If you believe the result is a "trivial" consequence of your work.
- If you want to insult the other researcher in public, then say that the other word is a "trivial consequence" of your own work during your talk. You will not make any friends and will not impress anyone by doing this.
The proper course of action, in my opinion, is to mention during your talk that indeed, you can recover older results using your theorems. You can even praise the other researcher for finding the older result without developing so much machinery. As an added bonus, this gives motivation for your own work: it's so interesting that it gives results that people already spent a lot of time proving before!- Or you can simply not mention it at all. If asked, you can say that it's nice to see other people being interested in your own work and finding applications.
Because, once again, I want to be very clear. It sounds like the other paper predates yours. Then credit for the "trivial" result also goes to the other researcher; we don't rename theorems as soon as someone finds a more general one. Moreover, what you consider to be a "trivial" consequence is not trivial at all. The other paper influenced you during your research, even indirectly. It probably gave you ideas about what results to prove, or even ideas for proofs. It's easier to follow in someone's footsteps than it is to break new ground.
New contributor
2
Why do you think that it sounds like the other paper predates that of the OP? I formed the opposite impression.
– Yemon Choi
16 hours ago
4
@YemonChoi is right, my paper predates the other one. Sorry if not clear in the question.
– Whatif
16 hours ago
3
@SolarMike OP is looking for someone to validate their intention of publicly humiliating someone else. I am setting the record straight.
– user106021
16 hours ago
7
@user106021 I disagree with your interpretation, even if I think the OP would do best not to cause a fuss. Once again, it does seem like you are jumping to conclusions or projecting. How do you know the OP isn't more junior than the people who claim to have improved their results? This seems very possible to me in pure maths
– Yemon Choi
15 hours ago
1
I disagree with this part: "say that you are aware of a possible contradiction between your paper and the other one and that you are looking into it. (See, that's called tact.)" In fact, either you are aware of a contradiction, which means you already verify that this is indeed the case, or you are not. In the latter case, you do not suggest that there may be a contradiction. Rather than tactful that is rude and potentially damaging to yourself if you end up being wrong. Better to simply say that you heard of the other result but have not had time to examine it.
– Andrés E. Caicedo
12 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
I either believe this other paper is wrong, or that it is a trivial consequence of my own result
Let me be blunt, if it's wrong and a trivial consequence of your own result, then your result is wrong too. Make up your mind: which is it? Wrong and trivial are not synonymous. The answer differs depending on which applies.
If you believe that the result is wrong.
- If you want to publicly humiliate the other researcher, then you can say during your talk that the other researcher's result is wrong. You will not make any friends and will not impress anyone by doing this.
- Otherwise, your first course of action is to talk about it with the other researcher in private. Have you even considered that you misunderstood something? Most people are reasonable, and if the result is truly wrong, then you will know how to act based on your discussion. Otherwise, this is a whole can of worms, and the answer depends on a ton of factors.
- If for some reason you have not had time to talk with the other researcher, then I would not mention the result at all, and elude the question if asked about it during the talk. If you really don't want to elude it, say that you are aware of a possible contradiction between your paper and the other one and that you are looking into it. (See, that's called tact.) I would also take the opportunity of having the other researcher in the same room to talk about it after the talk, in private.
If you believe the result is a "trivial" consequence of your work.
- If you want to insult the other researcher in public, then say that the other word is a "trivial consequence" of your own work during your talk. You will not make any friends and will not impress anyone by doing this.
The proper course of action, in my opinion, is to mention during your talk that indeed, you can recover older results using your theorems. You can even praise the other researcher for finding the older result without developing so much machinery. As an added bonus, this gives motivation for your own work: it's so interesting that it gives results that people already spent a lot of time proving before!- Or you can simply not mention it at all. If asked, you can say that it's nice to see other people being interested in your own work and finding applications.
Because, once again, I want to be very clear. It sounds like the other paper predates yours. Then credit for the "trivial" result also goes to the other researcher; we don't rename theorems as soon as someone finds a more general one. Moreover, what you consider to be a "trivial" consequence is not trivial at all. The other paper influenced you during your research, even indirectly. It probably gave you ideas about what results to prove, or even ideas for proofs. It's easier to follow in someone's footsteps than it is to break new ground.
New contributor
2
Why do you think that it sounds like the other paper predates that of the OP? I formed the opposite impression.
– Yemon Choi
16 hours ago
4
@YemonChoi is right, my paper predates the other one. Sorry if not clear in the question.
– Whatif
16 hours ago
3
@SolarMike OP is looking for someone to validate their intention of publicly humiliating someone else. I am setting the record straight.
– user106021
16 hours ago
7
@user106021 I disagree with your interpretation, even if I think the OP would do best not to cause a fuss. Once again, it does seem like you are jumping to conclusions or projecting. How do you know the OP isn't more junior than the people who claim to have improved their results? This seems very possible to me in pure maths
– Yemon Choi
15 hours ago
1
I disagree with this part: "say that you are aware of a possible contradiction between your paper and the other one and that you are looking into it. (See, that's called tact.)" In fact, either you are aware of a contradiction, which means you already verify that this is indeed the case, or you are not. In the latter case, you do not suggest that there may be a contradiction. Rather than tactful that is rude and potentially damaging to yourself if you end up being wrong. Better to simply say that you heard of the other result but have not had time to examine it.
– Andrés E. Caicedo
12 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
I either believe this other paper is wrong, or that it is a trivial consequence of my own result
Let me be blunt, if it's wrong and a trivial consequence of your own result, then your result is wrong too. Make up your mind: which is it? Wrong and trivial are not synonymous. The answer differs depending on which applies.
If you believe that the result is wrong.
- If you want to publicly humiliate the other researcher, then you can say during your talk that the other researcher's result is wrong. You will not make any friends and will not impress anyone by doing this.
- Otherwise, your first course of action is to talk about it with the other researcher in private. Have you even considered that you misunderstood something? Most people are reasonable, and if the result is truly wrong, then you will know how to act based on your discussion. Otherwise, this is a whole can of worms, and the answer depends on a ton of factors.
- If for some reason you have not had time to talk with the other researcher, then I would not mention the result at all, and elude the question if asked about it during the talk. If you really don't want to elude it, say that you are aware of a possible contradiction between your paper and the other one and that you are looking into it. (See, that's called tact.) I would also take the opportunity of having the other researcher in the same room to talk about it after the talk, in private.
If you believe the result is a "trivial" consequence of your work.
- If you want to insult the other researcher in public, then say that the other word is a "trivial consequence" of your own work during your talk. You will not make any friends and will not impress anyone by doing this.
The proper course of action, in my opinion, is to mention during your talk that indeed, you can recover older results using your theorems. You can even praise the other researcher for finding the older result without developing so much machinery. As an added bonus, this gives motivation for your own work: it's so interesting that it gives results that people already spent a lot of time proving before!- Or you can simply not mention it at all. If asked, you can say that it's nice to see other people being interested in your own work and finding applications.
Because, once again, I want to be very clear. It sounds like the other paper predates yours. Then credit for the "trivial" result also goes to the other researcher; we don't rename theorems as soon as someone finds a more general one. Moreover, what you consider to be a "trivial" consequence is not trivial at all. The other paper influenced you during your research, even indirectly. It probably gave you ideas about what results to prove, or even ideas for proofs. It's easier to follow in someone's footsteps than it is to break new ground.
New contributor
I either believe this other paper is wrong, or that it is a trivial consequence of my own result
Let me be blunt, if it's wrong and a trivial consequence of your own result, then your result is wrong too. Make up your mind: which is it? Wrong and trivial are not synonymous. The answer differs depending on which applies.
If you believe that the result is wrong.
- If you want to publicly humiliate the other researcher, then you can say during your talk that the other researcher's result is wrong. You will not make any friends and will not impress anyone by doing this.
- Otherwise, your first course of action is to talk about it with the other researcher in private. Have you even considered that you misunderstood something? Most people are reasonable, and if the result is truly wrong, then you will know how to act based on your discussion. Otherwise, this is a whole can of worms, and the answer depends on a ton of factors.
- If for some reason you have not had time to talk with the other researcher, then I would not mention the result at all, and elude the question if asked about it during the talk. If you really don't want to elude it, say that you are aware of a possible contradiction between your paper and the other one and that you are looking into it. (See, that's called tact.) I would also take the opportunity of having the other researcher in the same room to talk about it after the talk, in private.
If you believe the result is a "trivial" consequence of your work.
- If you want to insult the other researcher in public, then say that the other word is a "trivial consequence" of your own work during your talk. You will not make any friends and will not impress anyone by doing this.
The proper course of action, in my opinion, is to mention during your talk that indeed, you can recover older results using your theorems. You can even praise the other researcher for finding the older result without developing so much machinery. As an added bonus, this gives motivation for your own work: it's so interesting that it gives results that people already spent a lot of time proving before!- Or you can simply not mention it at all. If asked, you can say that it's nice to see other people being interested in your own work and finding applications.
Because, once again, I want to be very clear. It sounds like the other paper predates yours. Then credit for the "trivial" result also goes to the other researcher; we don't rename theorems as soon as someone finds a more general one. Moreover, what you consider to be a "trivial" consequence is not trivial at all. The other paper influenced you during your research, even indirectly. It probably gave you ideas about what results to prove, or even ideas for proofs. It's easier to follow in someone's footsteps than it is to break new ground.
New contributor
edited 16 hours ago
New contributor
answered 16 hours ago
user106021user106021
1873
1873
New contributor
New contributor
2
Why do you think that it sounds like the other paper predates that of the OP? I formed the opposite impression.
– Yemon Choi
16 hours ago
4
@YemonChoi is right, my paper predates the other one. Sorry if not clear in the question.
– Whatif
16 hours ago
3
@SolarMike OP is looking for someone to validate their intention of publicly humiliating someone else. I am setting the record straight.
– user106021
16 hours ago
7
@user106021 I disagree with your interpretation, even if I think the OP would do best not to cause a fuss. Once again, it does seem like you are jumping to conclusions or projecting. How do you know the OP isn't more junior than the people who claim to have improved their results? This seems very possible to me in pure maths
– Yemon Choi
15 hours ago
1
I disagree with this part: "say that you are aware of a possible contradiction between your paper and the other one and that you are looking into it. (See, that's called tact.)" In fact, either you are aware of a contradiction, which means you already verify that this is indeed the case, or you are not. In the latter case, you do not suggest that there may be a contradiction. Rather than tactful that is rude and potentially damaging to yourself if you end up being wrong. Better to simply say that you heard of the other result but have not had time to examine it.
– Andrés E. Caicedo
12 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
2
Why do you think that it sounds like the other paper predates that of the OP? I formed the opposite impression.
– Yemon Choi
16 hours ago
4
@YemonChoi is right, my paper predates the other one. Sorry if not clear in the question.
– Whatif
16 hours ago
3
@SolarMike OP is looking for someone to validate their intention of publicly humiliating someone else. I am setting the record straight.
– user106021
16 hours ago
7
@user106021 I disagree with your interpretation, even if I think the OP would do best not to cause a fuss. Once again, it does seem like you are jumping to conclusions or projecting. How do you know the OP isn't more junior than the people who claim to have improved their results? This seems very possible to me in pure maths
– Yemon Choi
15 hours ago
1
I disagree with this part: "say that you are aware of a possible contradiction between your paper and the other one and that you are looking into it. (See, that's called tact.)" In fact, either you are aware of a contradiction, which means you already verify that this is indeed the case, or you are not. In the latter case, you do not suggest that there may be a contradiction. Rather than tactful that is rude and potentially damaging to yourself if you end up being wrong. Better to simply say that you heard of the other result but have not had time to examine it.
– Andrés E. Caicedo
12 hours ago
2
2
Why do you think that it sounds like the other paper predates that of the OP? I formed the opposite impression.
– Yemon Choi
16 hours ago
Why do you think that it sounds like the other paper predates that of the OP? I formed the opposite impression.
– Yemon Choi
16 hours ago
4
4
@YemonChoi is right, my paper predates the other one. Sorry if not clear in the question.
– Whatif
16 hours ago
@YemonChoi is right, my paper predates the other one. Sorry if not clear in the question.
– Whatif
16 hours ago
3
3
@SolarMike OP is looking for someone to validate their intention of publicly humiliating someone else. I am setting the record straight.
– user106021
16 hours ago
@SolarMike OP is looking for someone to validate their intention of publicly humiliating someone else. I am setting the record straight.
– user106021
16 hours ago
7
7
@user106021 I disagree with your interpretation, even if I think the OP would do best not to cause a fuss. Once again, it does seem like you are jumping to conclusions or projecting. How do you know the OP isn't more junior than the people who claim to have improved their results? This seems very possible to me in pure maths
– Yemon Choi
15 hours ago
@user106021 I disagree with your interpretation, even if I think the OP would do best not to cause a fuss. Once again, it does seem like you are jumping to conclusions or projecting. How do you know the OP isn't more junior than the people who claim to have improved their results? This seems very possible to me in pure maths
– Yemon Choi
15 hours ago
1
1
I disagree with this part: "say that you are aware of a possible contradiction between your paper and the other one and that you are looking into it. (See, that's called tact.)" In fact, either you are aware of a contradiction, which means you already verify that this is indeed the case, or you are not. In the latter case, you do not suggest that there may be a contradiction. Rather than tactful that is rude and potentially damaging to yourself if you end up being wrong. Better to simply say that you heard of the other result but have not had time to examine it.
– Andrés E. Caicedo
12 hours ago
I disagree with this part: "say that you are aware of a possible contradiction between your paper and the other one and that you are looking into it. (See, that's called tact.)" In fact, either you are aware of a contradiction, which means you already verify that this is indeed the case, or you are not. In the latter case, you do not suggest that there may be a contradiction. Rather than tactful that is rude and potentially damaging to yourself if you end up being wrong. Better to simply say that you heard of the other result but have not had time to examine it.
– Andrés E. Caicedo
12 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
First, you should know that since your results appeared first (as you stated in a comment), you don’t actually have a strong self-interest to try to make the follow-up results of the other researcher look bad. In a typical scenario, their publishing something that improves or generalizes your result will actually make your own work look better, not worse, including possibly if their improvement is not trivial (actually a trivial improvement may be slightly more embarrassing to you, for example if they discover that a trivial modification to one of your proofs ends up proving a much stronger result. But even then you’ll get the credit of being the first person who published an innovative new proof technique that was used to prove that strong result). So all things considered, it’s pretty likely that your incentives are actually aligned with those of the other researcher, and being as kind and charitable to them as possible (without compromising your integrity, of course) will be beneficial not only to them but also to you. And remember you don’t have to discuss every private thought you have: you may think the improvement is trivial, but at the end of the day, who are you to say? That’s just an opinion anyway. Consider not mentioning it and letting people draw their own conclusions.
What I wrote above pertained to the scenario of a correct improvement. Coming to the other possibility you mentioned, if you believe the work of the other researcher is wrong, then it’s wrong and you shouldn’t pretend otherwise or feign ignorance but simply be matter-of-fact about it - if you discuss the result, state that you believe it’s wrong along with your level of certainty that that’s the case, without gloating or schadenfreude. Don’t say you haven’t had the time to look at it if that’s not true. But you may consider simply not mentioning the result at all if its relevance to what you are discussing is not high.
Incidentally, not mentioning the result may also end up offending the author if they are attending your talk... it’s a tricky business, academia! ;-) Anyway, good luck.
"Incidentally, not mentioning the result may also end up offending the author if they are attending your talk... " Yes, I am also worried about this. Thanks for the suggestions
– Whatif
2 hours ago
add a comment |
First, you should know that since your results appeared first (as you stated in a comment), you don’t actually have a strong self-interest to try to make the follow-up results of the other researcher look bad. In a typical scenario, their publishing something that improves or generalizes your result will actually make your own work look better, not worse, including possibly if their improvement is not trivial (actually a trivial improvement may be slightly more embarrassing to you, for example if they discover that a trivial modification to one of your proofs ends up proving a much stronger result. But even then you’ll get the credit of being the first person who published an innovative new proof technique that was used to prove that strong result). So all things considered, it’s pretty likely that your incentives are actually aligned with those of the other researcher, and being as kind and charitable to them as possible (without compromising your integrity, of course) will be beneficial not only to them but also to you. And remember you don’t have to discuss every private thought you have: you may think the improvement is trivial, but at the end of the day, who are you to say? That’s just an opinion anyway. Consider not mentioning it and letting people draw their own conclusions.
What I wrote above pertained to the scenario of a correct improvement. Coming to the other possibility you mentioned, if you believe the work of the other researcher is wrong, then it’s wrong and you shouldn’t pretend otherwise or feign ignorance but simply be matter-of-fact about it - if you discuss the result, state that you believe it’s wrong along with your level of certainty that that’s the case, without gloating or schadenfreude. Don’t say you haven’t had the time to look at it if that’s not true. But you may consider simply not mentioning the result at all if its relevance to what you are discussing is not high.
Incidentally, not mentioning the result may also end up offending the author if they are attending your talk... it’s a tricky business, academia! ;-) Anyway, good luck.
"Incidentally, not mentioning the result may also end up offending the author if they are attending your talk... " Yes, I am also worried about this. Thanks for the suggestions
– Whatif
2 hours ago
add a comment |
First, you should know that since your results appeared first (as you stated in a comment), you don’t actually have a strong self-interest to try to make the follow-up results of the other researcher look bad. In a typical scenario, their publishing something that improves or generalizes your result will actually make your own work look better, not worse, including possibly if their improvement is not trivial (actually a trivial improvement may be slightly more embarrassing to you, for example if they discover that a trivial modification to one of your proofs ends up proving a much stronger result. But even then you’ll get the credit of being the first person who published an innovative new proof technique that was used to prove that strong result). So all things considered, it’s pretty likely that your incentives are actually aligned with those of the other researcher, and being as kind and charitable to them as possible (without compromising your integrity, of course) will be beneficial not only to them but also to you. And remember you don’t have to discuss every private thought you have: you may think the improvement is trivial, but at the end of the day, who are you to say? That’s just an opinion anyway. Consider not mentioning it and letting people draw their own conclusions.
What I wrote above pertained to the scenario of a correct improvement. Coming to the other possibility you mentioned, if you believe the work of the other researcher is wrong, then it’s wrong and you shouldn’t pretend otherwise or feign ignorance but simply be matter-of-fact about it - if you discuss the result, state that you believe it’s wrong along with your level of certainty that that’s the case, without gloating or schadenfreude. Don’t say you haven’t had the time to look at it if that’s not true. But you may consider simply not mentioning the result at all if its relevance to what you are discussing is not high.
Incidentally, not mentioning the result may also end up offending the author if they are attending your talk... it’s a tricky business, academia! ;-) Anyway, good luck.
First, you should know that since your results appeared first (as you stated in a comment), you don’t actually have a strong self-interest to try to make the follow-up results of the other researcher look bad. In a typical scenario, their publishing something that improves or generalizes your result will actually make your own work look better, not worse, including possibly if their improvement is not trivial (actually a trivial improvement may be slightly more embarrassing to you, for example if they discover that a trivial modification to one of your proofs ends up proving a much stronger result. But even then you’ll get the credit of being the first person who published an innovative new proof technique that was used to prove that strong result). So all things considered, it’s pretty likely that your incentives are actually aligned with those of the other researcher, and being as kind and charitable to them as possible (without compromising your integrity, of course) will be beneficial not only to them but also to you. And remember you don’t have to discuss every private thought you have: you may think the improvement is trivial, but at the end of the day, who are you to say? That’s just an opinion anyway. Consider not mentioning it and letting people draw their own conclusions.
What I wrote above pertained to the scenario of a correct improvement. Coming to the other possibility you mentioned, if you believe the work of the other researcher is wrong, then it’s wrong and you shouldn’t pretend otherwise or feign ignorance but simply be matter-of-fact about it - if you discuss the result, state that you believe it’s wrong along with your level of certainty that that’s the case, without gloating or schadenfreude. Don’t say you haven’t had the time to look at it if that’s not true. But you may consider simply not mentioning the result at all if its relevance to what you are discussing is not high.
Incidentally, not mentioning the result may also end up offending the author if they are attending your talk... it’s a tricky business, academia! ;-) Anyway, good luck.
edited 9 hours ago
answered 13 hours ago
Dan RomikDan Romik
87.1k22189285
87.1k22189285
"Incidentally, not mentioning the result may also end up offending the author if they are attending your talk... " Yes, I am also worried about this. Thanks for the suggestions
– Whatif
2 hours ago
add a comment |
"Incidentally, not mentioning the result may also end up offending the author if they are attending your talk... " Yes, I am also worried about this. Thanks for the suggestions
– Whatif
2 hours ago
"Incidentally, not mentioning the result may also end up offending the author if they are attending your talk... " Yes, I am also worried about this. Thanks for the suggestions
– Whatif
2 hours ago
"Incidentally, not mentioning the result may also end up offending the author if they are attending your talk... " Yes, I am also worried about this. Thanks for the suggestions
– Whatif
2 hours ago
add a comment |
I lean towards "ignore it".
In addition to the issues of academic politics, there is the much bigger issue of confusing the audience. They have limited ability to process information (and math is particularly hard, even for mathematicians). If you mix in a "he said, she said" into your topic along with new results, you end up overloading the presentation. They will have a hard enough time learning from and following the talk, let alone doing justice to an issue of controversy. You just don't have time enough for a good exposition of the rival's arguments and your replies. If someone brings it up in Q&A, deal with it then.
Of course in a paper, you can/should be more all encompassing. But the goals of a paper are different than the goals of a talk.
New contributor
Yeah I seriously don't see where the harm is in not bringing it up. +1
– Mehrdad
10 hours ago
Well, I don't want to offend the author if they are there. But I think with these answers I'm also leaning to ignore it, thanks
– Whatif
2 hours ago
add a comment |
I lean towards "ignore it".
In addition to the issues of academic politics, there is the much bigger issue of confusing the audience. They have limited ability to process information (and math is particularly hard, even for mathematicians). If you mix in a "he said, she said" into your topic along with new results, you end up overloading the presentation. They will have a hard enough time learning from and following the talk, let alone doing justice to an issue of controversy. You just don't have time enough for a good exposition of the rival's arguments and your replies. If someone brings it up in Q&A, deal with it then.
Of course in a paper, you can/should be more all encompassing. But the goals of a paper are different than the goals of a talk.
New contributor
Yeah I seriously don't see where the harm is in not bringing it up. +1
– Mehrdad
10 hours ago
Well, I don't want to offend the author if they are there. But I think with these answers I'm also leaning to ignore it, thanks
– Whatif
2 hours ago
add a comment |
I lean towards "ignore it".
In addition to the issues of academic politics, there is the much bigger issue of confusing the audience. They have limited ability to process information (and math is particularly hard, even for mathematicians). If you mix in a "he said, she said" into your topic along with new results, you end up overloading the presentation. They will have a hard enough time learning from and following the talk, let alone doing justice to an issue of controversy. You just don't have time enough for a good exposition of the rival's arguments and your replies. If someone brings it up in Q&A, deal with it then.
Of course in a paper, you can/should be more all encompassing. But the goals of a paper are different than the goals of a talk.
New contributor
I lean towards "ignore it".
In addition to the issues of academic politics, there is the much bigger issue of confusing the audience. They have limited ability to process information (and math is particularly hard, even for mathematicians). If you mix in a "he said, she said" into your topic along with new results, you end up overloading the presentation. They will have a hard enough time learning from and following the talk, let alone doing justice to an issue of controversy. You just don't have time enough for a good exposition of the rival's arguments and your replies. If someone brings it up in Q&A, deal with it then.
Of course in a paper, you can/should be more all encompassing. But the goals of a paper are different than the goals of a talk.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 10 hours ago
guestguest
2162
2162
New contributor
New contributor
Yeah I seriously don't see where the harm is in not bringing it up. +1
– Mehrdad
10 hours ago
Well, I don't want to offend the author if they are there. But I think with these answers I'm also leaning to ignore it, thanks
– Whatif
2 hours ago
add a comment |
Yeah I seriously don't see where the harm is in not bringing it up. +1
– Mehrdad
10 hours ago
Well, I don't want to offend the author if they are there. But I think with these answers I'm also leaning to ignore it, thanks
– Whatif
2 hours ago
Yeah I seriously don't see where the harm is in not bringing it up. +1
– Mehrdad
10 hours ago
Yeah I seriously don't see where the harm is in not bringing it up. +1
– Mehrdad
10 hours ago
Well, I don't want to offend the author if they are there. But I think with these answers I'm also leaning to ignore it, thanks
– Whatif
2 hours ago
Well, I don't want to offend the author if they are there. But I think with these answers I'm also leaning to ignore it, thanks
– Whatif
2 hours ago
add a comment |
Whatif is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Whatif is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Whatif is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Whatif is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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15
Did you discuss this with the other researcher? Usually, the first thing to do on discovering an error or unclarity is contacting the author with a question (usually these things turn out to be misunderstandings, and the sooner they are corrected the better for everyone).
– darij grinberg
16 hours ago
3
Are you asking two hypothetical questions in parallel (i.e. you expect an answer to "what if I believe the paper is wrong?" and another, perhaps similar, answer to "what if I believe the paper's results are a trivial conclusion of my results?")? Or are you asking "what if I believe the paper must either be wrong or a trivial extension of my results but I haven't had a chance to really check to verify which it is?" If it's the third case, you're kind of a jerk.
– Ian
14 hours ago
1
(Cont.) In terms of the other two possibilities, IMO these warrant rather different responses. If you think the paper is wrong, you should contact the author in private. If you think the paper is trivial given your results, unless it also uses your method, you should mention the result in your talk as a result that's easy to obtain using your method, but that other people have obtained independently using other (hopefully, from your point of view, more complicated) methods. If you think the paper is trivial and it does use your method, then I don't really know what to tell you.
– Ian
14 hours ago
10
Being wrong and being a trivial consequence of your work are two very different things. Is there some reason you're asking both at once?
– Pete L. Clark
13 hours ago
1
If it is a trivial consequence, but it advances the field at least a little, it is a result. If it's trivial, you might found this result by yourself. If you didn't, but someone else did, then it's their gain and your loss. The matter of triviality is substantially different than being wrong. Proving that 7 is a prime is trivial; proving that 8 is a prime is wrong.
– corey979
13 hours ago