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How do ground effect vehicles perform turns?


What is ground effect?How come the ground effect has such a different outcome for wings and cars?What is the effect of uneven ground on ground effect vehicles?Why do aircraft need a vertical tailfin, but birds don't? (and lots of fish do?)Can we borrow Formula One's ground effect for airplanes?What are the effects of the tilted lift vector in a banked plane?How high does the ground effect last?What are the dynamic stability properties of an aircraft with wings exactly at the vertical CoG?Why do wall-to-wall airfoils in wind tunnels produce no (or infinitesimal) downwash?How would a low-airspeed fixed-wing drone be designed to reduce effects from gusts and wind shear?













22












$begingroup$


Considering that Wing-In-Ground-Effect (WIGE) vehicles fly with a rather low ground clearance, there is not much room for banking. How do WIGE vehicles turn? Do they turn just very slow with a low bank angle? Or do they turn uncoordinated with wings level?



I can imagine that banking has an opposite effect: the raised wing has less ground effect so more drag so it creates some countering yaw moment. Is this correct?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 8




    $begingroup$
    "carefully" ....
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    Mar 24 at 19:54










  • $begingroup$
    Wouldn't the raised wing have less drag, because it's experiencing less ground effect, ergo producing less lift, ergo generating less induced drag?
    $endgroup$
    – Sean
    Mar 25 at 2:51






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Sean, no: the essence of the ground effect that you get more lift for the same drag. Or same lfit with less drag. Also, if you are in a sustained banked turn, then by definition both half-wings produce the same lift - otherwise you'd be rolling with acceleration. It follows that the surface that is less in ground effect will have more drag. (Plus there are usual effects due to ailerons position etc. - which usually contribute with the same sign).
    $endgroup$
    – Zeus
    Mar 25 at 4:54















22












$begingroup$


Considering that Wing-In-Ground-Effect (WIGE) vehicles fly with a rather low ground clearance, there is not much room for banking. How do WIGE vehicles turn? Do they turn just very slow with a low bank angle? Or do they turn uncoordinated with wings level?



I can imagine that banking has an opposite effect: the raised wing has less ground effect so more drag so it creates some countering yaw moment. Is this correct?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 8




    $begingroup$
    "carefully" ....
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    Mar 24 at 19:54










  • $begingroup$
    Wouldn't the raised wing have less drag, because it's experiencing less ground effect, ergo producing less lift, ergo generating less induced drag?
    $endgroup$
    – Sean
    Mar 25 at 2:51






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Sean, no: the essence of the ground effect that you get more lift for the same drag. Or same lfit with less drag. Also, if you are in a sustained banked turn, then by definition both half-wings produce the same lift - otherwise you'd be rolling with acceleration. It follows that the surface that is less in ground effect will have more drag. (Plus there are usual effects due to ailerons position etc. - which usually contribute with the same sign).
    $endgroup$
    – Zeus
    Mar 25 at 4:54













22












22








22





$begingroup$


Considering that Wing-In-Ground-Effect (WIGE) vehicles fly with a rather low ground clearance, there is not much room for banking. How do WIGE vehicles turn? Do they turn just very slow with a low bank angle? Or do they turn uncoordinated with wings level?



I can imagine that banking has an opposite effect: the raised wing has less ground effect so more drag so it creates some countering yaw moment. Is this correct?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




Considering that Wing-In-Ground-Effect (WIGE) vehicles fly with a rather low ground clearance, there is not much room for banking. How do WIGE vehicles turn? Do they turn just very slow with a low bank angle? Or do they turn uncoordinated with wings level?



I can imagine that banking has an opposite effect: the raised wing has less ground effect so more drag so it creates some countering yaw moment. Is this correct?







aerodynamics ground-effect






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Mar 25 at 11:17









Zeiss Ikon

3,462418




3,462418










asked Mar 24 at 16:32









FlorianFlorian

1,9792725




1,9792725







  • 8




    $begingroup$
    "carefully" ....
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    Mar 24 at 19:54










  • $begingroup$
    Wouldn't the raised wing have less drag, because it's experiencing less ground effect, ergo producing less lift, ergo generating less induced drag?
    $endgroup$
    – Sean
    Mar 25 at 2:51






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Sean, no: the essence of the ground effect that you get more lift for the same drag. Or same lfit with less drag. Also, if you are in a sustained banked turn, then by definition both half-wings produce the same lift - otherwise you'd be rolling with acceleration. It follows that the surface that is less in ground effect will have more drag. (Plus there are usual effects due to ailerons position etc. - which usually contribute with the same sign).
    $endgroup$
    – Zeus
    Mar 25 at 4:54












  • 8




    $begingroup$
    "carefully" ....
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    Mar 24 at 19:54










  • $begingroup$
    Wouldn't the raised wing have less drag, because it's experiencing less ground effect, ergo producing less lift, ergo generating less induced drag?
    $endgroup$
    – Sean
    Mar 25 at 2:51






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Sean, no: the essence of the ground effect that you get more lift for the same drag. Or same lfit with less drag. Also, if you are in a sustained banked turn, then by definition both half-wings produce the same lift - otherwise you'd be rolling with acceleration. It follows that the surface that is less in ground effect will have more drag. (Plus there are usual effects due to ailerons position etc. - which usually contribute with the same sign).
    $endgroup$
    – Zeus
    Mar 25 at 4:54







8




8




$begingroup$
"carefully" ....
$endgroup$
– Fattie
Mar 24 at 19:54




$begingroup$
"carefully" ....
$endgroup$
– Fattie
Mar 24 at 19:54












$begingroup$
Wouldn't the raised wing have less drag, because it's experiencing less ground effect, ergo producing less lift, ergo generating less induced drag?
$endgroup$
– Sean
Mar 25 at 2:51




$begingroup$
Wouldn't the raised wing have less drag, because it's experiencing less ground effect, ergo producing less lift, ergo generating less induced drag?
$endgroup$
– Sean
Mar 25 at 2:51




2




2




$begingroup$
@Sean, no: the essence of the ground effect that you get more lift for the same drag. Or same lfit with less drag. Also, if you are in a sustained banked turn, then by definition both half-wings produce the same lift - otherwise you'd be rolling with acceleration. It follows that the surface that is less in ground effect will have more drag. (Plus there are usual effects due to ailerons position etc. - which usually contribute with the same sign).
$endgroup$
– Zeus
Mar 25 at 4:54




$begingroup$
@Sean, no: the essence of the ground effect that you get more lift for the same drag. Or same lfit with less drag. Also, if you are in a sustained banked turn, then by definition both half-wings produce the same lift - otherwise you'd be rolling with acceleration. It follows that the surface that is less in ground effect will have more drag. (Plus there are usual effects due to ailerons position etc. - which usually contribute with the same sign).
$endgroup$
– Zeus
Mar 25 at 4:54










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















16












$begingroup$

It turns like an airplane by tilting the lift vector. Watch carefully in this video, especially about 50 seconds in, and you can see the craft is turning by banking.



enter image description here



It just can't bank very hard unless it climbs a little higher. This is one of the problems of GE aircraft; they aren't very maneuverable because they can only make gentle turns at the normal cruising level close to the surface.



The alternative to banking, if you don't have enough room to roll, is skidding, where you are redirecting the thrust vector and also generating some lateral force from the sideways presentation of the craft's body. Basically like a hovercraft. A lot less efficient though because of the drag rise from the skid. Some of those really big GE machines like the Ekranoplan would have used skidding (kind of obvious from the huge rudder that it's designed to skid) and maybe a little bit of bank.



It's probably a good thing that this concept has not been all that successful. If the world was full of these types of machines crisscrossing every which way over oceans and lakes, all at the same level and going pretty fast, you probably have a lot more mid-airs than you get with airplanes, or boat collisions for that matter.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
    $endgroup$
    – rcgldr
    Mar 24 at 18:44










  • $begingroup$
    It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    Mar 24 at 19:54






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
    $endgroup$
    – John K
    Mar 24 at 20:01






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
    $endgroup$
    – FreeMan
    Mar 25 at 12:34










  • $begingroup$
    @FreeMan - right :)
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    Mar 25 at 12:36











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1 Answer
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active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









16












$begingroup$

It turns like an airplane by tilting the lift vector. Watch carefully in this video, especially about 50 seconds in, and you can see the craft is turning by banking.



enter image description here



It just can't bank very hard unless it climbs a little higher. This is one of the problems of GE aircraft; they aren't very maneuverable because they can only make gentle turns at the normal cruising level close to the surface.



The alternative to banking, if you don't have enough room to roll, is skidding, where you are redirecting the thrust vector and also generating some lateral force from the sideways presentation of the craft's body. Basically like a hovercraft. A lot less efficient though because of the drag rise from the skid. Some of those really big GE machines like the Ekranoplan would have used skidding (kind of obvious from the huge rudder that it's designed to skid) and maybe a little bit of bank.



It's probably a good thing that this concept has not been all that successful. If the world was full of these types of machines crisscrossing every which way over oceans and lakes, all at the same level and going pretty fast, you probably have a lot more mid-airs than you get with airplanes, or boat collisions for that matter.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
    $endgroup$
    – rcgldr
    Mar 24 at 18:44










  • $begingroup$
    It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    Mar 24 at 19:54






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
    $endgroup$
    – John K
    Mar 24 at 20:01






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
    $endgroup$
    – FreeMan
    Mar 25 at 12:34










  • $begingroup$
    @FreeMan - right :)
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    Mar 25 at 12:36















16












$begingroup$

It turns like an airplane by tilting the lift vector. Watch carefully in this video, especially about 50 seconds in, and you can see the craft is turning by banking.



enter image description here



It just can't bank very hard unless it climbs a little higher. This is one of the problems of GE aircraft; they aren't very maneuverable because they can only make gentle turns at the normal cruising level close to the surface.



The alternative to banking, if you don't have enough room to roll, is skidding, where you are redirecting the thrust vector and also generating some lateral force from the sideways presentation of the craft's body. Basically like a hovercraft. A lot less efficient though because of the drag rise from the skid. Some of those really big GE machines like the Ekranoplan would have used skidding (kind of obvious from the huge rudder that it's designed to skid) and maybe a little bit of bank.



It's probably a good thing that this concept has not been all that successful. If the world was full of these types of machines crisscrossing every which way over oceans and lakes, all at the same level and going pretty fast, you probably have a lot more mid-airs than you get with airplanes, or boat collisions for that matter.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
    $endgroup$
    – rcgldr
    Mar 24 at 18:44










  • $begingroup$
    It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    Mar 24 at 19:54






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
    $endgroup$
    – John K
    Mar 24 at 20:01






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
    $endgroup$
    – FreeMan
    Mar 25 at 12:34










  • $begingroup$
    @FreeMan - right :)
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    Mar 25 at 12:36













16












16








16





$begingroup$

It turns like an airplane by tilting the lift vector. Watch carefully in this video, especially about 50 seconds in, and you can see the craft is turning by banking.



enter image description here



It just can't bank very hard unless it climbs a little higher. This is one of the problems of GE aircraft; they aren't very maneuverable because they can only make gentle turns at the normal cruising level close to the surface.



The alternative to banking, if you don't have enough room to roll, is skidding, where you are redirecting the thrust vector and also generating some lateral force from the sideways presentation of the craft's body. Basically like a hovercraft. A lot less efficient though because of the drag rise from the skid. Some of those really big GE machines like the Ekranoplan would have used skidding (kind of obvious from the huge rudder that it's designed to skid) and maybe a little bit of bank.



It's probably a good thing that this concept has not been all that successful. If the world was full of these types of machines crisscrossing every which way over oceans and lakes, all at the same level and going pretty fast, you probably have a lot more mid-airs than you get with airplanes, or boat collisions for that matter.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



It turns like an airplane by tilting the lift vector. Watch carefully in this video, especially about 50 seconds in, and you can see the craft is turning by banking.



enter image description here



It just can't bank very hard unless it climbs a little higher. This is one of the problems of GE aircraft; they aren't very maneuverable because they can only make gentle turns at the normal cruising level close to the surface.



The alternative to banking, if you don't have enough room to roll, is skidding, where you are redirecting the thrust vector and also generating some lateral force from the sideways presentation of the craft's body. Basically like a hovercraft. A lot less efficient though because of the drag rise from the skid. Some of those really big GE machines like the Ekranoplan would have used skidding (kind of obvious from the huge rudder that it's designed to skid) and maybe a little bit of bank.



It's probably a good thing that this concept has not been all that successful. If the world was full of these types of machines crisscrossing every which way over oceans and lakes, all at the same level and going pretty fast, you probably have a lot more mid-airs than you get with airplanes, or boat collisions for that matter.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Mar 25 at 8:32









ymb1

69.7k7222370




69.7k7222370










answered Mar 24 at 18:11









John KJohn K

24.6k13674




24.6k13674











  • $begingroup$
    How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
    $endgroup$
    – rcgldr
    Mar 24 at 18:44










  • $begingroup$
    It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    Mar 24 at 19:54






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
    $endgroup$
    – John K
    Mar 24 at 20:01






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
    $endgroup$
    – FreeMan
    Mar 25 at 12:34










  • $begingroup$
    @FreeMan - right :)
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    Mar 25 at 12:36
















  • $begingroup$
    How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
    $endgroup$
    – rcgldr
    Mar 24 at 18:44










  • $begingroup$
    It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    Mar 24 at 19:54






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
    $endgroup$
    – John K
    Mar 24 at 20:01






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
    $endgroup$
    – FreeMan
    Mar 25 at 12:34










  • $begingroup$
    @FreeMan - right :)
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    Mar 25 at 12:36















$begingroup$
How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
$endgroup$
– rcgldr
Mar 24 at 18:44




$begingroup$
How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
$endgroup$
– rcgldr
Mar 24 at 18:44












$begingroup$
It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
Mar 24 at 19:54




$begingroup$
It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
Mar 24 at 19:54




2




2




$begingroup$
@rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
$endgroup$
– John K
Mar 24 at 20:01




$begingroup$
@rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
$endgroup$
– John K
Mar 24 at 20:01




1




1




$begingroup$
Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
$endgroup$
– FreeMan
Mar 25 at 12:34




$begingroup$
Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
$endgroup$
– FreeMan
Mar 25 at 12:34












$begingroup$
@FreeMan - right :)
$endgroup$
– Fattie
Mar 25 at 12:36




$begingroup$
@FreeMan - right :)
$endgroup$
– Fattie
Mar 25 at 12:36

















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Hall Of Fame””Slayer Wins 'Best Metal' Grammy Award””Slayer Guitarist Jeff Hanneman Dies””Bullet-For My Valentine booed at Metal Hammer Golden Gods Awards””Unholy Aliance””The End Of Slayer?””Slayer: We Could Thrash Out Two More Albums If We're Fast Enough...””'The Unholy Alliance: Chapter III' UK Dates Added”originalet”Megadeth And Slayer To Co-Headline 'Canadian Carnage' Trek”originalet”World Painted Blood””Release “World Painted Blood” by Slayer””Metallica Heading To Cinemas””Slayer, Megadeth To Join Forces For 'European Carnage' Tour - Dec. 18, 2010”originalet”Slayer's Hanneman Contracts Acute Infection; Band To Bring In Guest Guitarist””Cannibal Corpse's Pat O'Brien Will Step In As Slayer's Guest Guitarist”originalet”Slayer’s Jeff Hanneman Dead at 49””Dave Lombardo Says He Made Only $67,000 In 2011 While Touring With Slayer””Slayer: We Do Not Agree With Dave Lombardo's Substance Or Timeline Of Events””Slayer Welcomes Drummer Paul Bostaph Back To The Fold””Slayer Hope to Unveil Never-Before-Heard Jeff Hanneman Material on Next Album””Slayer Debut New Song 'Implode' During Surprise Golden Gods Appearance””Release group Repentless by Slayer””Repentless - Slayer - Credits””Slayer””Metal Storm Awards 2015””Slayer - to release comic book "Repentless #1"””Slayer To Release 'Repentless' 6.66" Vinyl Box Set””BREAKING NEWS: Slayer Announce Farewell Tour””Slayer Recruit Lamb of God, Anthrax, Behemoth + Testament for Final Tour””Slayer lägger ner efter 37 år””Slayer Announces Second North American Leg Of 'Final' Tour””Final World Tour””Slayer Announces Final European Tour With Lamb of God, Anthrax And Obituary””Slayer To Tour Europe With Lamb of God, Anthrax And Obituary””Slayer To Play 'Last French Show Ever' At Next Year's Hellfst””Slayer's Final World Tour Will Extend Into 2019””Death Angel's Rob Cavestany On Slayer's 'Farewell' Tour: 'Some Of Us Could See This Coming'””Testament Has No Plans To Retire Anytime Soon, Says Chuck Billy””Anthrax's Scott Ian On Slayer's 'Farewell' Tour Plans: 'I Was Surprised And I Wasn't Surprised'””Slayer””Slayer's Morbid Schlock””Review/Rock; For Slayer, the Mania Is the Message””Slayer - Biography””Slayer - Reign In Blood”originalet”Dave Lombardo””An exclusive oral history of Slayer”originalet”Exclusive! Interview With Slayer Guitarist Jeff Hanneman”originalet”Thinking Out Loud: Slayer's Kerry King on hair metal, Satan and being polite””Slayer Lyrics””Slayer - Biography””Most influential artists for extreme metal music””Slayer - Reign in Blood””Slayer guitarist Jeff Hanneman dies aged 49””Slatanic Slaughter: A Tribute to Slayer””Gateway to Hell: A Tribute to Slayer””Covered In Blood””Slayer: The Origins of Thrash in San Francisco, CA.””Why They Rule - #6 Slayer”originalet”Guitar World's 100 Greatest Heavy Metal Guitarists Of All Time”originalet”The fans have spoken: Slayer comes out on top in readers' polls”originalet”Tribute to Jeff Hanneman (1964-2013)””Lamb Of God Frontman: We Sound Like A Slayer Rip-Off””BEHEMOTH Frontman Pays Tribute To SLAYER's JEFF HANNEMAN””Slayer, Hatebreed Doing Double Duty On This Year's Ozzfest””System of a Down””Lacuna Coil’s Andrea Ferro Talks Influences, Skateboarding, Band Origins + More””Slayer - Reign in Blood””Into The Lungs of Hell””Slayer rules - en utställning om fans””Slayer and Their Fans Slashed Through a No-Holds-Barred Night at Gas Monkey””Home””Slayer””Gold & Platinum - The Big 4 Live from Sofia, Bulgaria””Exclusive! Interview With Slayer Guitarist Kerry King””2008-02-23: Wiltern, Los Angeles, CA, USA””Slayer's Kerry King To Perform With Megadeth Tonight! - Oct. 21, 2010”originalet”Dave Lombardo - Biography”Slayer Case DismissedArkiveradUltimate Classic Rock: Slayer guitarist Jeff Hanneman dead at 49.”Slayer: "We could never do any thing like Some Kind Of Monster..."””Cannibal Corpse'S Pat O'Brien Will Step In As Slayer'S Guest Guitarist | The Official Slayer Site”originalet”Slayer Wins 'Best Metal' Grammy Award””Slayer Guitarist Jeff Hanneman Dies””Kerrang! Awards 2006 Blog: Kerrang! Hall Of Fame””Kerrang! Awards 2013: Kerrang! Legend”originalet”Metallica, Slayer, Iron Maien Among Winners At Metal Hammer Awards””Metal Hammer Golden Gods Awards””Bullet For My Valentine Booed At Metal Hammer Golden Gods Awards””Metal Storm Awards 2006””Metal Storm Awards 2015””Slayer's Concert History””Slayer - Relationships””Slayer - Releases”Slayers officiella webbplatsSlayer på MusicBrainzOfficiell webbplatsSlayerSlayerr1373445760000 0001 1540 47353068615-5086262726cb13906545x(data)6033143kn20030215029