Is it idiomatic to use a noun as the apparent subject of a first person plural?












7















I feel I must have heard this but am now not sure. Can I say




Los ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales




assuming I am old myself of course. Possible options which occur to me




Nosotros ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales

Nosotros, los ancianos, vivimos en regiones litorales




but neither of those sounds quite right to me.










share|improve this question



























    7















    I feel I must have heard this but am now not sure. Can I say




    Los ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales




    assuming I am old myself of course. Possible options which occur to me




    Nosotros ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales

    Nosotros, los ancianos, vivimos en regiones litorales




    but neither of those sounds quite right to me.










    share|improve this question

























      7












      7








      7








      I feel I must have heard this but am now not sure. Can I say




      Los ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales




      assuming I am old myself of course. Possible options which occur to me




      Nosotros ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales

      Nosotros, los ancianos, vivimos en regiones litorales




      but neither of those sounds quite right to me.










      share|improve this question














      I feel I must have heard this but am now not sure. Can I say




      Los ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales




      assuming I am old myself of course. Possible options which occur to me




      Nosotros ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales

      Nosotros, los ancianos, vivimos en regiones litorales




      but neither of those sounds quite right to me.







      gramática pronombres






      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question











      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question










      asked 15 hours ago









      mdeweymdewey

      2,2982625




      2,2982625






















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

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          4














          This is OK:




          Los ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales.




          and this too:




          Nosotros, los ancianos, vivimos en regiones litorales.




          This one is not (it looks like a direct calque from English):




          Nosotros ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales.




          The first two sentences are perfectly idiomatic. I believe that the second one should be written with those parenthetical commas but is in fact often not.



          The grammatical analysis of these constructions is subject to some debate. There's some material about it in the Nueva Gramática de la Lengua Española (NGLE), beginning at §33.6j. Some grammarians analyze these subjects as the sum of an implicit first person plural pronoun plus a "covert specifying apposition", i.e. the first two sentences that I've marked as OK would be equivalent, the former having a hidden nosotros, the latter making it explicit.






          share|improve this answer































            2














            Yes, of course. The sentence




            Los ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales




            is perfectly valid in Spanish and denotes that you are an old man yourself. In fact, your second other option is also quite right, but maybe a specific context is needed (it could work as part of a longer dialogue in a novel or such). The first one ("nosotros anciamos vivimos") is incorrect.



            Here's what the Spanish Gramática says about that:




            33.6j Cuando la función de sujeto es desempeñada por grupos nominales en plural que designan personas (los habitantes, las madres, los docentes), la concordancia con el verbo puede establecerse en tercera persona del plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades viven en un continuo ajetreo), pero también en primera y segunda persona del plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades {vivimos ~ vivís} en un continuo ajetreo). [...]



            33.6k La primera persona del plural implica [...] la INCLUSIÓN del hablante en el grupo designado por el sujeto. La segunda implica, paralelamente, la inclusión del oyente en ese mismo grupo. Ambas implicaciones desaparecen si la persona empleada es la tercera. [...]




            In English:




            When the function of the subject is performed by nominal groups in plural form that designate persons (los habitantes, las madres, los docentes), the agreement with the verb can be established in the third person of the plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades viven en un continuo ajetreo), but also in the first and second person of the plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades {vivimos ~ vivís} en un continuo ajetreo). The first person of the plural implies the INCLUSION of the speaker in the group designated by the subject. The second implies, in parallel, the inclusion of the listener in that same group. Both implications disappear if the employed person is the third.




            So you could also say




            Los ancianos viven en regiones litorales




            and then you would be saying that you do not consider yourself part of the group of old men, or maybe you are an old man but you are stating that from an outside point of view, as in




            La humanidad vive tiempos difíciles







            share|improve this answer


























              Your Answer








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              2 Answers
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              active

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              2 Answers
              2






              active

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              active

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              active

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              4














              This is OK:




              Los ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales.




              and this too:




              Nosotros, los ancianos, vivimos en regiones litorales.




              This one is not (it looks like a direct calque from English):




              Nosotros ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales.




              The first two sentences are perfectly idiomatic. I believe that the second one should be written with those parenthetical commas but is in fact often not.



              The grammatical analysis of these constructions is subject to some debate. There's some material about it in the Nueva Gramática de la Lengua Española (NGLE), beginning at §33.6j. Some grammarians analyze these subjects as the sum of an implicit first person plural pronoun plus a "covert specifying apposition", i.e. the first two sentences that I've marked as OK would be equivalent, the former having a hidden nosotros, the latter making it explicit.






              share|improve this answer




























                4














                This is OK:




                Los ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales.




                and this too:




                Nosotros, los ancianos, vivimos en regiones litorales.




                This one is not (it looks like a direct calque from English):




                Nosotros ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales.




                The first two sentences are perfectly idiomatic. I believe that the second one should be written with those parenthetical commas but is in fact often not.



                The grammatical analysis of these constructions is subject to some debate. There's some material about it in the Nueva Gramática de la Lengua Española (NGLE), beginning at §33.6j. Some grammarians analyze these subjects as the sum of an implicit first person plural pronoun plus a "covert specifying apposition", i.e. the first two sentences that I've marked as OK would be equivalent, the former having a hidden nosotros, the latter making it explicit.






                share|improve this answer


























                  4












                  4








                  4







                  This is OK:




                  Los ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales.




                  and this too:




                  Nosotros, los ancianos, vivimos en regiones litorales.




                  This one is not (it looks like a direct calque from English):




                  Nosotros ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales.




                  The first two sentences are perfectly idiomatic. I believe that the second one should be written with those parenthetical commas but is in fact often not.



                  The grammatical analysis of these constructions is subject to some debate. There's some material about it in the Nueva Gramática de la Lengua Española (NGLE), beginning at §33.6j. Some grammarians analyze these subjects as the sum of an implicit first person plural pronoun plus a "covert specifying apposition", i.e. the first two sentences that I've marked as OK would be equivalent, the former having a hidden nosotros, the latter making it explicit.






                  share|improve this answer













                  This is OK:




                  Los ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales.




                  and this too:




                  Nosotros, los ancianos, vivimos en regiones litorales.




                  This one is not (it looks like a direct calque from English):




                  Nosotros ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales.




                  The first two sentences are perfectly idiomatic. I believe that the second one should be written with those parenthetical commas but is in fact often not.



                  The grammatical analysis of these constructions is subject to some debate. There's some material about it in the Nueva Gramática de la Lengua Española (NGLE), beginning at §33.6j. Some grammarians analyze these subjects as the sum of an implicit first person plural pronoun plus a "covert specifying apposition", i.e. the first two sentences that I've marked as OK would be equivalent, the former having a hidden nosotros, the latter making it explicit.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 15 hours ago









                  pablodf76pablodf76

                  22.5k11467




                  22.5k11467























                      2














                      Yes, of course. The sentence




                      Los ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales




                      is perfectly valid in Spanish and denotes that you are an old man yourself. In fact, your second other option is also quite right, but maybe a specific context is needed (it could work as part of a longer dialogue in a novel or such). The first one ("nosotros anciamos vivimos") is incorrect.



                      Here's what the Spanish Gramática says about that:




                      33.6j Cuando la función de sujeto es desempeñada por grupos nominales en plural que designan personas (los habitantes, las madres, los docentes), la concordancia con el verbo puede establecerse en tercera persona del plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades viven en un continuo ajetreo), pero también en primera y segunda persona del plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades {vivimos ~ vivís} en un continuo ajetreo). [...]



                      33.6k La primera persona del plural implica [...] la INCLUSIÓN del hablante en el grupo designado por el sujeto. La segunda implica, paralelamente, la inclusión del oyente en ese mismo grupo. Ambas implicaciones desaparecen si la persona empleada es la tercera. [...]




                      In English:




                      When the function of the subject is performed by nominal groups in plural form that designate persons (los habitantes, las madres, los docentes), the agreement with the verb can be established in the third person of the plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades viven en un continuo ajetreo), but also in the first and second person of the plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades {vivimos ~ vivís} en un continuo ajetreo). The first person of the plural implies the INCLUSION of the speaker in the group designated by the subject. The second implies, in parallel, the inclusion of the listener in that same group. Both implications disappear if the employed person is the third.




                      So you could also say




                      Los ancianos viven en regiones litorales




                      and then you would be saying that you do not consider yourself part of the group of old men, or maybe you are an old man but you are stating that from an outside point of view, as in




                      La humanidad vive tiempos difíciles







                      share|improve this answer






























                        2














                        Yes, of course. The sentence




                        Los ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales




                        is perfectly valid in Spanish and denotes that you are an old man yourself. In fact, your second other option is also quite right, but maybe a specific context is needed (it could work as part of a longer dialogue in a novel or such). The first one ("nosotros anciamos vivimos") is incorrect.



                        Here's what the Spanish Gramática says about that:




                        33.6j Cuando la función de sujeto es desempeñada por grupos nominales en plural que designan personas (los habitantes, las madres, los docentes), la concordancia con el verbo puede establecerse en tercera persona del plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades viven en un continuo ajetreo), pero también en primera y segunda persona del plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades {vivimos ~ vivís} en un continuo ajetreo). [...]



                        33.6k La primera persona del plural implica [...] la INCLUSIÓN del hablante en el grupo designado por el sujeto. La segunda implica, paralelamente, la inclusión del oyente en ese mismo grupo. Ambas implicaciones desaparecen si la persona empleada es la tercera. [...]




                        In English:




                        When the function of the subject is performed by nominal groups in plural form that designate persons (los habitantes, las madres, los docentes), the agreement with the verb can be established in the third person of the plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades viven en un continuo ajetreo), but also in the first and second person of the plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades {vivimos ~ vivís} en un continuo ajetreo). The first person of the plural implies the INCLUSION of the speaker in the group designated by the subject. The second implies, in parallel, the inclusion of the listener in that same group. Both implications disappear if the employed person is the third.




                        So you could also say




                        Los ancianos viven en regiones litorales




                        and then you would be saying that you do not consider yourself part of the group of old men, or maybe you are an old man but you are stating that from an outside point of view, as in




                        La humanidad vive tiempos difíciles







                        share|improve this answer




























                          2












                          2








                          2







                          Yes, of course. The sentence




                          Los ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales




                          is perfectly valid in Spanish and denotes that you are an old man yourself. In fact, your second other option is also quite right, but maybe a specific context is needed (it could work as part of a longer dialogue in a novel or such). The first one ("nosotros anciamos vivimos") is incorrect.



                          Here's what the Spanish Gramática says about that:




                          33.6j Cuando la función de sujeto es desempeñada por grupos nominales en plural que designan personas (los habitantes, las madres, los docentes), la concordancia con el verbo puede establecerse en tercera persona del plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades viven en un continuo ajetreo), pero también en primera y segunda persona del plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades {vivimos ~ vivís} en un continuo ajetreo). [...]



                          33.6k La primera persona del plural implica [...] la INCLUSIÓN del hablante en el grupo designado por el sujeto. La segunda implica, paralelamente, la inclusión del oyente en ese mismo grupo. Ambas implicaciones desaparecen si la persona empleada es la tercera. [...]




                          In English:




                          When the function of the subject is performed by nominal groups in plural form that designate persons (los habitantes, las madres, los docentes), the agreement with the verb can be established in the third person of the plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades viven en un continuo ajetreo), but also in the first and second person of the plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades {vivimos ~ vivís} en un continuo ajetreo). The first person of the plural implies the INCLUSION of the speaker in the group designated by the subject. The second implies, in parallel, the inclusion of the listener in that same group. Both implications disappear if the employed person is the third.




                          So you could also say




                          Los ancianos viven en regiones litorales




                          and then you would be saying that you do not consider yourself part of the group of old men, or maybe you are an old man but you are stating that from an outside point of view, as in




                          La humanidad vive tiempos difíciles







                          share|improve this answer















                          Yes, of course. The sentence




                          Los ancianos vivimos en regiones litorales




                          is perfectly valid in Spanish and denotes that you are an old man yourself. In fact, your second other option is also quite right, but maybe a specific context is needed (it could work as part of a longer dialogue in a novel or such). The first one ("nosotros anciamos vivimos") is incorrect.



                          Here's what the Spanish Gramática says about that:




                          33.6j Cuando la función de sujeto es desempeñada por grupos nominales en plural que designan personas (los habitantes, las madres, los docentes), la concordancia con el verbo puede establecerse en tercera persona del plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades viven en un continuo ajetreo), pero también en primera y segunda persona del plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades {vivimos ~ vivís} en un continuo ajetreo). [...]



                          33.6k La primera persona del plural implica [...] la INCLUSIÓN del hablante en el grupo designado por el sujeto. La segunda implica, paralelamente, la inclusión del oyente en ese mismo grupo. Ambas implicaciones desaparecen si la persona empleada es la tercera. [...]




                          In English:




                          When the function of the subject is performed by nominal groups in plural form that designate persons (los habitantes, las madres, los docentes), the agreement with the verb can be established in the third person of the plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades viven en un continuo ajetreo), but also in the first and second person of the plural (Los habitantes de las grandes ciudades {vivimos ~ vivís} en un continuo ajetreo). The first person of the plural implies the INCLUSION of the speaker in the group designated by the subject. The second implies, in parallel, the inclusion of the listener in that same group. Both implications disappear if the employed person is the third.




                          So you could also say




                          Los ancianos viven en regiones litorales




                          and then you would be saying that you do not consider yourself part of the group of old men, or maybe you are an old man but you are stating that from an outside point of view, as in




                          La humanidad vive tiempos difíciles








                          share|improve this answer














                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer








                          edited 14 hours ago

























                          answered 15 hours ago









                          CharlieCharlie

                          48.7k1088224




                          48.7k1088224






























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