Gödel's incompleteness theorems - what are the religious implications?Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works?What are the philosophical implications of Gödel's First Incompleteness Theorem?Did Russell understand Gödel's incompleteness theorems?Relation of Gödel's incompleteness theorems and Karl Popper falsificationGödel's ontological proof and the incompleteness theoremAre there any work around after Godel's incompleteness theorems?What sources discuss Russell's response to Gödel's incompleteness theorems?Do Gödel's incompleteness theorems have any consequences for epistemology?Can Gödel's incompleteness theorems be applied to ethics?Poignancy because of Gödel's theorems - why?Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems and Implications for Science

getline() vs. fgets(): Control memory allocation

What are the advantages of luxury car brands like Acura/Lexus over their sibling non-luxury brands Honda/Toyota?

Is 'contemporary' ambiguous and if so is there a better word?

Can you use "едать" and "игрывать" in the present and future tenses?

What is a common way to tell if an academic is "above average," or outstanding in their field? Is their h-index (Hirsh index) one of them?

Can there be a single technologically advanced nation, in a continent full of non-technologically advanced nations?

Why did the Apollo 13 crew extend the LM landing gear?

Is it normal for gliders not to have attitude indicators?

Is there precedent or are there procedures for a US president refusing to concede to an electoral defeat?

Gladys unchained

Hostile Divisor Numbers

Agena docking and RCS Brakes in First Man

Why do people keep telling me that I am a bad photographer?

Python 3 - simple temperature program

Removing racism on a multi raced world

Out of scope work duties and resignation

How to ask systemd to not start a system service on boot?

A factorization game

To kill a cuckoo

What do I do if my advisor made a mistake?

Can my 2 children, aged 10 and 12, who are US citizens, travel to the USA on expired American passports?

Outlining A Novel - How do you make it less of a slog?

How to deal with employer who keeps me at work after working hours

How can I get people to remember my character's gender?



Gödel's incompleteness theorems - what are the religious implications?


Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works?What are the philosophical implications of Gödel's First Incompleteness Theorem?Did Russell understand Gödel's incompleteness theorems?Relation of Gödel's incompleteness theorems and Karl Popper falsificationGödel's ontological proof and the incompleteness theoremAre there any work around after Godel's incompleteness theorems?What sources discuss Russell's response to Gödel's incompleteness theorems?Do Gödel's incompleteness theorems have any consequences for epistemology?Can Gödel's incompleteness theorems be applied to ethics?Poignancy because of Gödel's theorems - why?Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems and Implications for Science













9















Apparently Kurt Gödel believed that his incompleteness theorems have some kind of religious implications. Despite Gödel's belief in a personal God, this was still somewhat surprising to me. Discussions and theories about weird (i.e. outside of mathematics) consequences of his theorems are all over the internet, and are often labeled as misunderstandings or "crank" interpretations of his work. But Gödel himself seemed to think that there are indeed legitimate applications of his work to religion.



I recall reading the quote below a while ago. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe it was in response to Kurt Gödel having heard from his mother that a religious magazine or journal of some sort printed an article describing a simplified account of his incompleteness theorems for a general audience. The article then discussed some religious implications.



The actual quote from Gödel is:




It was something to be expected that sooner or later my proof will be
made useful for religion, since that is doubtless also justified in a
certain sense.




The quote can be viewed on page 125 of Reflections on Kurt Gödel
by Hao Wang, on Google Books as a preview. The context I described above is not there in the preview exactly as I remember, so I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere else (or am going insane). I do not have a copy of Wang's book either, so if anyone else wants to provide additional context beyond the preview or from other sources that is great.



My question is: What religious implications did Kurt Gödel think his incompleteness theorems have, and why?



My question is mainly about Gödel's own thoughts, but if anyone wants to speculate or "connect the dots" based on any other information they might have about Gödel's writing or thinking on the matter, this is more than welcome too.










share|improve this question






















  • I'll also be fascinated by the answers. Even mathematicians seem to fall-out on this question. It occurs to me that the question might be little different but more useful if it was asked about metaphysics rather than religion. If incompleteness has implications for religion it is because it has them for metaphysics.

    – PeterJ
    Apr 3 at 12:14







  • 1





    The incompleteness theorem is about arithmetic and no more. Unless God is a number, the incompleteness theorem can have no religious consequences, and even what Godel himself has to say about it can't change this fact. Other theorems like Tarski's undefinability theorem demonstrate more generally how language can't express every truth. However, these are demonstrations of the limits of language and the human mind only, and show nothing about metaphysics or religion.

    – armand
    Apr 8 at 7:51















9















Apparently Kurt Gödel believed that his incompleteness theorems have some kind of religious implications. Despite Gödel's belief in a personal God, this was still somewhat surprising to me. Discussions and theories about weird (i.e. outside of mathematics) consequences of his theorems are all over the internet, and are often labeled as misunderstandings or "crank" interpretations of his work. But Gödel himself seemed to think that there are indeed legitimate applications of his work to religion.



I recall reading the quote below a while ago. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe it was in response to Kurt Gödel having heard from his mother that a religious magazine or journal of some sort printed an article describing a simplified account of his incompleteness theorems for a general audience. The article then discussed some religious implications.



The actual quote from Gödel is:




It was something to be expected that sooner or later my proof will be
made useful for religion, since that is doubtless also justified in a
certain sense.




The quote can be viewed on page 125 of Reflections on Kurt Gödel
by Hao Wang, on Google Books as a preview. The context I described above is not there in the preview exactly as I remember, so I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere else (or am going insane). I do not have a copy of Wang's book either, so if anyone else wants to provide additional context beyond the preview or from other sources that is great.



My question is: What religious implications did Kurt Gödel think his incompleteness theorems have, and why?



My question is mainly about Gödel's own thoughts, but if anyone wants to speculate or "connect the dots" based on any other information they might have about Gödel's writing or thinking on the matter, this is more than welcome too.










share|improve this question






















  • I'll also be fascinated by the answers. Even mathematicians seem to fall-out on this question. It occurs to me that the question might be little different but more useful if it was asked about metaphysics rather than religion. If incompleteness has implications for religion it is because it has them for metaphysics.

    – PeterJ
    Apr 3 at 12:14







  • 1





    The incompleteness theorem is about arithmetic and no more. Unless God is a number, the incompleteness theorem can have no religious consequences, and even what Godel himself has to say about it can't change this fact. Other theorems like Tarski's undefinability theorem demonstrate more generally how language can't express every truth. However, these are demonstrations of the limits of language and the human mind only, and show nothing about metaphysics or religion.

    – armand
    Apr 8 at 7:51













9












9








9


3






Apparently Kurt Gödel believed that his incompleteness theorems have some kind of religious implications. Despite Gödel's belief in a personal God, this was still somewhat surprising to me. Discussions and theories about weird (i.e. outside of mathematics) consequences of his theorems are all over the internet, and are often labeled as misunderstandings or "crank" interpretations of his work. But Gödel himself seemed to think that there are indeed legitimate applications of his work to religion.



I recall reading the quote below a while ago. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe it was in response to Kurt Gödel having heard from his mother that a religious magazine or journal of some sort printed an article describing a simplified account of his incompleteness theorems for a general audience. The article then discussed some religious implications.



The actual quote from Gödel is:




It was something to be expected that sooner or later my proof will be
made useful for religion, since that is doubtless also justified in a
certain sense.




The quote can be viewed on page 125 of Reflections on Kurt Gödel
by Hao Wang, on Google Books as a preview. The context I described above is not there in the preview exactly as I remember, so I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere else (or am going insane). I do not have a copy of Wang's book either, so if anyone else wants to provide additional context beyond the preview or from other sources that is great.



My question is: What religious implications did Kurt Gödel think his incompleteness theorems have, and why?



My question is mainly about Gödel's own thoughts, but if anyone wants to speculate or "connect the dots" based on any other information they might have about Gödel's writing or thinking on the matter, this is more than welcome too.










share|improve this question














Apparently Kurt Gödel believed that his incompleteness theorems have some kind of religious implications. Despite Gödel's belief in a personal God, this was still somewhat surprising to me. Discussions and theories about weird (i.e. outside of mathematics) consequences of his theorems are all over the internet, and are often labeled as misunderstandings or "crank" interpretations of his work. But Gödel himself seemed to think that there are indeed legitimate applications of his work to religion.



I recall reading the quote below a while ago. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe it was in response to Kurt Gödel having heard from his mother that a religious magazine or journal of some sort printed an article describing a simplified account of his incompleteness theorems for a general audience. The article then discussed some religious implications.



The actual quote from Gödel is:




It was something to be expected that sooner or later my proof will be
made useful for religion, since that is doubtless also justified in a
certain sense.




The quote can be viewed on page 125 of Reflections on Kurt Gödel
by Hao Wang, on Google Books as a preview. The context I described above is not there in the preview exactly as I remember, so I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere else (or am going insane). I do not have a copy of Wang's book either, so if anyone else wants to provide additional context beyond the preview or from other sources that is great.



My question is: What religious implications did Kurt Gödel think his incompleteness theorems have, and why?



My question is mainly about Gödel's own thoughts, but if anyone wants to speculate or "connect the dots" based on any other information they might have about Gödel's writing or thinking on the matter, this is more than welcome too.







logic theology philosophy-of-religion goedel






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked Apr 1 at 19:56









AdamAdam

832112




832112












  • I'll also be fascinated by the answers. Even mathematicians seem to fall-out on this question. It occurs to me that the question might be little different but more useful if it was asked about metaphysics rather than religion. If incompleteness has implications for religion it is because it has them for metaphysics.

    – PeterJ
    Apr 3 at 12:14







  • 1





    The incompleteness theorem is about arithmetic and no more. Unless God is a number, the incompleteness theorem can have no religious consequences, and even what Godel himself has to say about it can't change this fact. Other theorems like Tarski's undefinability theorem demonstrate more generally how language can't express every truth. However, these are demonstrations of the limits of language and the human mind only, and show nothing about metaphysics or religion.

    – armand
    Apr 8 at 7:51

















  • I'll also be fascinated by the answers. Even mathematicians seem to fall-out on this question. It occurs to me that the question might be little different but more useful if it was asked about metaphysics rather than religion. If incompleteness has implications for religion it is because it has them for metaphysics.

    – PeterJ
    Apr 3 at 12:14







  • 1





    The incompleteness theorem is about arithmetic and no more. Unless God is a number, the incompleteness theorem can have no religious consequences, and even what Godel himself has to say about it can't change this fact. Other theorems like Tarski's undefinability theorem demonstrate more generally how language can't express every truth. However, these are demonstrations of the limits of language and the human mind only, and show nothing about metaphysics or religion.

    – armand
    Apr 8 at 7:51
















I'll also be fascinated by the answers. Even mathematicians seem to fall-out on this question. It occurs to me that the question might be little different but more useful if it was asked about metaphysics rather than religion. If incompleteness has implications for religion it is because it has them for metaphysics.

– PeterJ
Apr 3 at 12:14






I'll also be fascinated by the answers. Even mathematicians seem to fall-out on this question. It occurs to me that the question might be little different but more useful if it was asked about metaphysics rather than religion. If incompleteness has implications for religion it is because it has them for metaphysics.

– PeterJ
Apr 3 at 12:14





1




1





The incompleteness theorem is about arithmetic and no more. Unless God is a number, the incompleteness theorem can have no religious consequences, and even what Godel himself has to say about it can't change this fact. Other theorems like Tarski's undefinability theorem demonstrate more generally how language can't express every truth. However, these are demonstrations of the limits of language and the human mind only, and show nothing about metaphysics or religion.

– armand
Apr 8 at 7:51





The incompleteness theorem is about arithmetic and no more. Unless God is a number, the incompleteness theorem can have no religious consequences, and even what Godel himself has to say about it can't change this fact. Other theorems like Tarski's undefinability theorem demonstrate more generally how language can't express every truth. However, these are demonstrations of the limits of language and the human mind only, and show nothing about metaphysics or religion.

– armand
Apr 8 at 7:51










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















11














Gödel's theism is discussed by Franzen in Gödel’s Theorem: An Incomplete Guideto Its Use and Abuse. He penned a version of the ontological argument, and in 1961 ranked the worldviews “according to the degree and the manner of their affinity to or, respectively, turning away from metaphysics (or religion)... Skepticism, materialism, and positivism stand on one side; spiritualism, idealism, and theology on the other”. Idealism "in its pantheistic form” is dismissed as as “a weakened form of theology in the proper sense”. Nonetheless, he did not attempt to draw theistic conclusions from the incompleteness theorem:




"Gödel sometimes described himself as a theist and believed in the possibility
of a “rational theology,” although he did not belong to any church. In
[Wang 87] he is quoted as remarking that “I believe that there is much
more reason in religion, though not in the churches, that one commonly
believes...” Among his unpublished papers was a version of St. Anselm’s ontological proof of the existence of God. More precisely, the conclusion of the argument is that there is a God-like individual, where x is defined to be God-like if every
essential property of x is positive and x has every positive property as an
essential property. As this explanation of “God-like” should make clear,
Godel’s idea of a rational theology was not of an evangelical character,
and Oskar Morgenstern relates ([Dawson 97, p. 237]) that he hesitated to
publish the proof “for fear that a belief in God might be ascribed to him,
whereas, he said, it was undertaken as a purely logical investigation, to
demonstrate that such a proof could be carried out on the basis of accepted
principles of formal logic.” Although Gödel was thus not at all averse to theological reasoning, he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions from the incompleteness theorem.
"




This did not stop others from doing just that, or even ascribing it to Gödel. Much of it is also discussed by Franzen: there can be no "theory of everything", existence of truths which can not be mechanically derived imply the existence of God, for ultimate truth is beyond reason, methodology of science cannot be based upon science only, scientists must rely on faith as much as non-scientists, finite beings can never answer all the questions they seek after, etc., etc. Related, although not exatly theological, is the Penrose-Lucas argument that "consciousness" surpasses Turing machines. For a recent sampler, see e.g. Goldman's God of Mathematicians:




"At twenty-five he ruined the positivist hope of making mathematics into a self-contained formal system with his incompleteness theorems, implying, as he noted, that machines never will be able to think, and computer algorithms never will replace intuition. To Gödel this implies that we cannot give a credible account of reality without God.



[...] Whether or not we believe, as did Gödel, in Leibniz’s God, we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.




Other attempted drawings of implications suffer from similar reasoning by loose association, they are not so much implications as vague analogies. And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's), it is true that Gödel was quite preoccupied with Leibniz himself, see Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works? He even told Hao Wang:"My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure". Unfortunately, Gödel's surviving writings on this theory, and theology generally, are very scarce. His notes on philosophy, known as Max Phil (Maximen Philosophie), occasionally touch on theological issues, Ternullo in Gödel’s Cantorianism discusses Gödel’s views of the "absolute infinite", which Cantor associated with God.






share|improve this answer




















  • 3





    Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

    – Adam
    Apr 1 at 22:49






  • 1





    Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

    – Adam
    Apr 1 at 22:53






  • 2





    @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

    – Conifold
    Apr 1 at 23:43







  • 1





    Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

    – Rusi
    Apr 2 at 3:36






  • 1





    @Rusi I added the link.

    – Conifold
    Apr 2 at 18:26


















-4














This answer is taken from my answer to an earlier question, "What is god for religious people?"




God is the Completeness Theorem, in contrast to the Incompleteness
Theorem. Gödel's first Incompleteness Theorem says, loosely, that any
system like mathematics will always have some problem that cannot be
resolved given the existing set of axioms; one additional axiom is
always necessary.



God is the Final Axiom. God is that axiom which resolves all existing
problems and will further resolve all future problems. The content of
that axiom is in perennial dispute, but its simple existence is more
generally agreed upon.




I am not saying that I agree with this conception of god. However, in many religions the idea of a supreme being functions as an “Anti-Incompleteness Theorem”: that set of ideas which, taken together, are sufficient to explain all events in the world.






share|improve this answer

























    Your Answer








    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "265"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader:
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    ,
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );













    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphilosophy.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f61547%2fg%25c3%25b6dels-incompleteness-theorems-what-are-the-religious-implications%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    11














    Gödel's theism is discussed by Franzen in Gödel’s Theorem: An Incomplete Guideto Its Use and Abuse. He penned a version of the ontological argument, and in 1961 ranked the worldviews “according to the degree and the manner of their affinity to or, respectively, turning away from metaphysics (or religion)... Skepticism, materialism, and positivism stand on one side; spiritualism, idealism, and theology on the other”. Idealism "in its pantheistic form” is dismissed as as “a weakened form of theology in the proper sense”. Nonetheless, he did not attempt to draw theistic conclusions from the incompleteness theorem:




    "Gödel sometimes described himself as a theist and believed in the possibility
    of a “rational theology,” although he did not belong to any church. In
    [Wang 87] he is quoted as remarking that “I believe that there is much
    more reason in religion, though not in the churches, that one commonly
    believes...” Among his unpublished papers was a version of St. Anselm’s ontological proof of the existence of God. More precisely, the conclusion of the argument is that there is a God-like individual, where x is defined to be God-like if every
    essential property of x is positive and x has every positive property as an
    essential property. As this explanation of “God-like” should make clear,
    Godel’s idea of a rational theology was not of an evangelical character,
    and Oskar Morgenstern relates ([Dawson 97, p. 237]) that he hesitated to
    publish the proof “for fear that a belief in God might be ascribed to him,
    whereas, he said, it was undertaken as a purely logical investigation, to
    demonstrate that such a proof could be carried out on the basis of accepted
    principles of formal logic.” Although Gödel was thus not at all averse to theological reasoning, he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions from the incompleteness theorem.
    "




    This did not stop others from doing just that, or even ascribing it to Gödel. Much of it is also discussed by Franzen: there can be no "theory of everything", existence of truths which can not be mechanically derived imply the existence of God, for ultimate truth is beyond reason, methodology of science cannot be based upon science only, scientists must rely on faith as much as non-scientists, finite beings can never answer all the questions they seek after, etc., etc. Related, although not exatly theological, is the Penrose-Lucas argument that "consciousness" surpasses Turing machines. For a recent sampler, see e.g. Goldman's God of Mathematicians:




    "At twenty-five he ruined the positivist hope of making mathematics into a self-contained formal system with his incompleteness theorems, implying, as he noted, that machines never will be able to think, and computer algorithms never will replace intuition. To Gödel this implies that we cannot give a credible account of reality without God.



    [...] Whether or not we believe, as did Gödel, in Leibniz’s God, we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.




    Other attempted drawings of implications suffer from similar reasoning by loose association, they are not so much implications as vague analogies. And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's), it is true that Gödel was quite preoccupied with Leibniz himself, see Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works? He even told Hao Wang:"My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure". Unfortunately, Gödel's surviving writings on this theory, and theology generally, are very scarce. His notes on philosophy, known as Max Phil (Maximen Philosophie), occasionally touch on theological issues, Ternullo in Gödel’s Cantorianism discusses Gödel’s views of the "absolute infinite", which Cantor associated with God.






    share|improve this answer




















    • 3





      Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

      – Adam
      Apr 1 at 22:49






    • 1





      Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

      – Adam
      Apr 1 at 22:53






    • 2





      @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

      – Conifold
      Apr 1 at 23:43







    • 1





      Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

      – Rusi
      Apr 2 at 3:36






    • 1





      @Rusi I added the link.

      – Conifold
      Apr 2 at 18:26















    11














    Gödel's theism is discussed by Franzen in Gödel’s Theorem: An Incomplete Guideto Its Use and Abuse. He penned a version of the ontological argument, and in 1961 ranked the worldviews “according to the degree and the manner of their affinity to or, respectively, turning away from metaphysics (or religion)... Skepticism, materialism, and positivism stand on one side; spiritualism, idealism, and theology on the other”. Idealism "in its pantheistic form” is dismissed as as “a weakened form of theology in the proper sense”. Nonetheless, he did not attempt to draw theistic conclusions from the incompleteness theorem:




    "Gödel sometimes described himself as a theist and believed in the possibility
    of a “rational theology,” although he did not belong to any church. In
    [Wang 87] he is quoted as remarking that “I believe that there is much
    more reason in religion, though not in the churches, that one commonly
    believes...” Among his unpublished papers was a version of St. Anselm’s ontological proof of the existence of God. More precisely, the conclusion of the argument is that there is a God-like individual, where x is defined to be God-like if every
    essential property of x is positive and x has every positive property as an
    essential property. As this explanation of “God-like” should make clear,
    Godel’s idea of a rational theology was not of an evangelical character,
    and Oskar Morgenstern relates ([Dawson 97, p. 237]) that he hesitated to
    publish the proof “for fear that a belief in God might be ascribed to him,
    whereas, he said, it was undertaken as a purely logical investigation, to
    demonstrate that such a proof could be carried out on the basis of accepted
    principles of formal logic.” Although Gödel was thus not at all averse to theological reasoning, he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions from the incompleteness theorem.
    "




    This did not stop others from doing just that, or even ascribing it to Gödel. Much of it is also discussed by Franzen: there can be no "theory of everything", existence of truths which can not be mechanically derived imply the existence of God, for ultimate truth is beyond reason, methodology of science cannot be based upon science only, scientists must rely on faith as much as non-scientists, finite beings can never answer all the questions they seek after, etc., etc. Related, although not exatly theological, is the Penrose-Lucas argument that "consciousness" surpasses Turing machines. For a recent sampler, see e.g. Goldman's God of Mathematicians:




    "At twenty-five he ruined the positivist hope of making mathematics into a self-contained formal system with his incompleteness theorems, implying, as he noted, that machines never will be able to think, and computer algorithms never will replace intuition. To Gödel this implies that we cannot give a credible account of reality without God.



    [...] Whether or not we believe, as did Gödel, in Leibniz’s God, we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.




    Other attempted drawings of implications suffer from similar reasoning by loose association, they are not so much implications as vague analogies. And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's), it is true that Gödel was quite preoccupied with Leibniz himself, see Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works? He even told Hao Wang:"My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure". Unfortunately, Gödel's surviving writings on this theory, and theology generally, are very scarce. His notes on philosophy, known as Max Phil (Maximen Philosophie), occasionally touch on theological issues, Ternullo in Gödel’s Cantorianism discusses Gödel’s views of the "absolute infinite", which Cantor associated with God.






    share|improve this answer




















    • 3





      Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

      – Adam
      Apr 1 at 22:49






    • 1





      Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

      – Adam
      Apr 1 at 22:53






    • 2





      @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

      – Conifold
      Apr 1 at 23:43







    • 1





      Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

      – Rusi
      Apr 2 at 3:36






    • 1





      @Rusi I added the link.

      – Conifold
      Apr 2 at 18:26













    11












    11








    11







    Gödel's theism is discussed by Franzen in Gödel’s Theorem: An Incomplete Guideto Its Use and Abuse. He penned a version of the ontological argument, and in 1961 ranked the worldviews “according to the degree and the manner of their affinity to or, respectively, turning away from metaphysics (or religion)... Skepticism, materialism, and positivism stand on one side; spiritualism, idealism, and theology on the other”. Idealism "in its pantheistic form” is dismissed as as “a weakened form of theology in the proper sense”. Nonetheless, he did not attempt to draw theistic conclusions from the incompleteness theorem:




    "Gödel sometimes described himself as a theist and believed in the possibility
    of a “rational theology,” although he did not belong to any church. In
    [Wang 87] he is quoted as remarking that “I believe that there is much
    more reason in religion, though not in the churches, that one commonly
    believes...” Among his unpublished papers was a version of St. Anselm’s ontological proof of the existence of God. More precisely, the conclusion of the argument is that there is a God-like individual, where x is defined to be God-like if every
    essential property of x is positive and x has every positive property as an
    essential property. As this explanation of “God-like” should make clear,
    Godel’s idea of a rational theology was not of an evangelical character,
    and Oskar Morgenstern relates ([Dawson 97, p. 237]) that he hesitated to
    publish the proof “for fear that a belief in God might be ascribed to him,
    whereas, he said, it was undertaken as a purely logical investigation, to
    demonstrate that such a proof could be carried out on the basis of accepted
    principles of formal logic.” Although Gödel was thus not at all averse to theological reasoning, he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions from the incompleteness theorem.
    "




    This did not stop others from doing just that, or even ascribing it to Gödel. Much of it is also discussed by Franzen: there can be no "theory of everything", existence of truths which can not be mechanically derived imply the existence of God, for ultimate truth is beyond reason, methodology of science cannot be based upon science only, scientists must rely on faith as much as non-scientists, finite beings can never answer all the questions they seek after, etc., etc. Related, although not exatly theological, is the Penrose-Lucas argument that "consciousness" surpasses Turing machines. For a recent sampler, see e.g. Goldman's God of Mathematicians:




    "At twenty-five he ruined the positivist hope of making mathematics into a self-contained formal system with his incompleteness theorems, implying, as he noted, that machines never will be able to think, and computer algorithms never will replace intuition. To Gödel this implies that we cannot give a credible account of reality without God.



    [...] Whether or not we believe, as did Gödel, in Leibniz’s God, we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.




    Other attempted drawings of implications suffer from similar reasoning by loose association, they are not so much implications as vague analogies. And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's), it is true that Gödel was quite preoccupied with Leibniz himself, see Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works? He even told Hao Wang:"My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure". Unfortunately, Gödel's surviving writings on this theory, and theology generally, are very scarce. His notes on philosophy, known as Max Phil (Maximen Philosophie), occasionally touch on theological issues, Ternullo in Gödel’s Cantorianism discusses Gödel’s views of the "absolute infinite", which Cantor associated with God.






    share|improve this answer















    Gödel's theism is discussed by Franzen in Gödel’s Theorem: An Incomplete Guideto Its Use and Abuse. He penned a version of the ontological argument, and in 1961 ranked the worldviews “according to the degree and the manner of their affinity to or, respectively, turning away from metaphysics (or religion)... Skepticism, materialism, and positivism stand on one side; spiritualism, idealism, and theology on the other”. Idealism "in its pantheistic form” is dismissed as as “a weakened form of theology in the proper sense”. Nonetheless, he did not attempt to draw theistic conclusions from the incompleteness theorem:




    "Gödel sometimes described himself as a theist and believed in the possibility
    of a “rational theology,” although he did not belong to any church. In
    [Wang 87] he is quoted as remarking that “I believe that there is much
    more reason in religion, though not in the churches, that one commonly
    believes...” Among his unpublished papers was a version of St. Anselm’s ontological proof of the existence of God. More precisely, the conclusion of the argument is that there is a God-like individual, where x is defined to be God-like if every
    essential property of x is positive and x has every positive property as an
    essential property. As this explanation of “God-like” should make clear,
    Godel’s idea of a rational theology was not of an evangelical character,
    and Oskar Morgenstern relates ([Dawson 97, p. 237]) that he hesitated to
    publish the proof “for fear that a belief in God might be ascribed to him,
    whereas, he said, it was undertaken as a purely logical investigation, to
    demonstrate that such a proof could be carried out on the basis of accepted
    principles of formal logic.” Although Gödel was thus not at all averse to theological reasoning, he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions from the incompleteness theorem.
    "




    This did not stop others from doing just that, or even ascribing it to Gödel. Much of it is also discussed by Franzen: there can be no "theory of everything", existence of truths which can not be mechanically derived imply the existence of God, for ultimate truth is beyond reason, methodology of science cannot be based upon science only, scientists must rely on faith as much as non-scientists, finite beings can never answer all the questions they seek after, etc., etc. Related, although not exatly theological, is the Penrose-Lucas argument that "consciousness" surpasses Turing machines. For a recent sampler, see e.g. Goldman's God of Mathematicians:




    "At twenty-five he ruined the positivist hope of making mathematics into a self-contained formal system with his incompleteness theorems, implying, as he noted, that machines never will be able to think, and computer algorithms never will replace intuition. To Gödel this implies that we cannot give a credible account of reality without God.



    [...] Whether or not we believe, as did Gödel, in Leibniz’s God, we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.




    Other attempted drawings of implications suffer from similar reasoning by loose association, they are not so much implications as vague analogies. And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's), it is true that Gödel was quite preoccupied with Leibniz himself, see Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works? He even told Hao Wang:"My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure". Unfortunately, Gödel's surviving writings on this theory, and theology generally, are very scarce. His notes on philosophy, known as Max Phil (Maximen Philosophie), occasionally touch on theological issues, Ternullo in Gödel’s Cantorianism discusses Gödel’s views of the "absolute infinite", which Cantor associated with God.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited Apr 2 at 18:45

























    answered Apr 1 at 21:47









    ConifoldConifold

    37k260148




    37k260148







    • 3





      Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

      – Adam
      Apr 1 at 22:49






    • 1





      Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

      – Adam
      Apr 1 at 22:53






    • 2





      @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

      – Conifold
      Apr 1 at 23:43







    • 1





      Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

      – Rusi
      Apr 2 at 3:36






    • 1





      @Rusi I added the link.

      – Conifold
      Apr 2 at 18:26












    • 3





      Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

      – Adam
      Apr 1 at 22:49






    • 1





      Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

      – Adam
      Apr 1 at 22:53






    • 2





      @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

      – Conifold
      Apr 1 at 23:43







    • 1





      Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

      – Rusi
      Apr 2 at 3:36






    • 1





      @Rusi I added the link.

      – Conifold
      Apr 2 at 18:26







    3




    3





    Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

    – Adam
    Apr 1 at 22:49





    Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

    – Adam
    Apr 1 at 22:49




    1




    1





    Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

    – Adam
    Apr 1 at 22:53





    Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

    – Adam
    Apr 1 at 22:53




    2




    2





    @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

    – Conifold
    Apr 1 at 23:43






    @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

    – Conifold
    Apr 1 at 23:43





    1




    1





    Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

    – Rusi
    Apr 2 at 3:36





    Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

    – Rusi
    Apr 2 at 3:36




    1




    1





    @Rusi I added the link.

    – Conifold
    Apr 2 at 18:26





    @Rusi I added the link.

    – Conifold
    Apr 2 at 18:26











    -4














    This answer is taken from my answer to an earlier question, "What is god for religious people?"




    God is the Completeness Theorem, in contrast to the Incompleteness
    Theorem. Gödel's first Incompleteness Theorem says, loosely, that any
    system like mathematics will always have some problem that cannot be
    resolved given the existing set of axioms; one additional axiom is
    always necessary.



    God is the Final Axiom. God is that axiom which resolves all existing
    problems and will further resolve all future problems. The content of
    that axiom is in perennial dispute, but its simple existence is more
    generally agreed upon.




    I am not saying that I agree with this conception of god. However, in many religions the idea of a supreme being functions as an “Anti-Incompleteness Theorem”: that set of ideas which, taken together, are sufficient to explain all events in the world.






    share|improve this answer





























      -4














      This answer is taken from my answer to an earlier question, "What is god for religious people?"




      God is the Completeness Theorem, in contrast to the Incompleteness
      Theorem. Gödel's first Incompleteness Theorem says, loosely, that any
      system like mathematics will always have some problem that cannot be
      resolved given the existing set of axioms; one additional axiom is
      always necessary.



      God is the Final Axiom. God is that axiom which resolves all existing
      problems and will further resolve all future problems. The content of
      that axiom is in perennial dispute, but its simple existence is more
      generally agreed upon.




      I am not saying that I agree with this conception of god. However, in many religions the idea of a supreme being functions as an “Anti-Incompleteness Theorem”: that set of ideas which, taken together, are sufficient to explain all events in the world.






      share|improve this answer



























        -4












        -4








        -4







        This answer is taken from my answer to an earlier question, "What is god for religious people?"




        God is the Completeness Theorem, in contrast to the Incompleteness
        Theorem. Gödel's first Incompleteness Theorem says, loosely, that any
        system like mathematics will always have some problem that cannot be
        resolved given the existing set of axioms; one additional axiom is
        always necessary.



        God is the Final Axiom. God is that axiom which resolves all existing
        problems and will further resolve all future problems. The content of
        that axiom is in perennial dispute, but its simple existence is more
        generally agreed upon.




        I am not saying that I agree with this conception of god. However, in many religions the idea of a supreme being functions as an “Anti-Incompleteness Theorem”: that set of ideas which, taken together, are sufficient to explain all events in the world.






        share|improve this answer















        This answer is taken from my answer to an earlier question, "What is god for religious people?"




        God is the Completeness Theorem, in contrast to the Incompleteness
        Theorem. Gödel's first Incompleteness Theorem says, loosely, that any
        system like mathematics will always have some problem that cannot be
        resolved given the existing set of axioms; one additional axiom is
        always necessary.



        God is the Final Axiom. God is that axiom which resolves all existing
        problems and will further resolve all future problems. The content of
        that axiom is in perennial dispute, but its simple existence is more
        generally agreed upon.




        I am not saying that I agree with this conception of god. However, in many religions the idea of a supreme being functions as an “Anti-Incompleteness Theorem”: that set of ideas which, taken together, are sufficient to explain all events in the world.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited Apr 8 at 2:32

























        answered Apr 5 at 22:02









        Mark AndrewsMark Andrews

        3,1312824




        3,1312824



























            draft saved

            draft discarded
















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to Philosophy Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid


            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphilosophy.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f61547%2fg%25c3%25b6dels-incompleteness-theorems-what-are-the-religious-implications%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            He _____ here since 1970 . Answer needed [closed]What does “since he was so high” mean?Meaning of “catch birds for”?How do I ensure “since” takes the meaning I want?“Who cares here” meaningWhat does “right round toward” mean?the time tense (had now been detected)What does the phrase “ring around the roses” mean here?Correct usage of “visited upon”Meaning of “foiled rail sabotage bid”It was the third time I had gone to Rome or It is the third time I had been to Rome

            Bunad

            Færeyskur hestur Heimild | Tengill | Tilvísanir | LeiðsagnarvalRossið - síða um færeyska hrossið á færeyskuGott ár hjá færeyska hestinum