Why, historically, did Gödel think CH was false?












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Gödel was the first to show that ~CH was not provable from ZFC. However, he also thought CH was false in his view of the "Platonic" reality of set theory. It seems this view was also somewhat common among set theorists of a Platonist bent, until Cohen's later forcing result.



Does anyone know what Gödel's reasoning was for CH being false? Did he ever write anything about it, addressing his views on the subject?










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  • $begingroup$
    Are you asking for a source for the statement that Gödel though CH was false?
    $endgroup$
    – Lee Mosher
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    One might also look at Godel's collected works volume 2 for history and commentary on the 1947/1964 exposition, and Volume 3 about his unpublished 1970 notes. Also, Kanamori's "Godel and Set theory". There is also discussion of Godel's beliefs on CH in Maddy's "Believing the Axioms I" and Koellner's "On the question of absolute undecidability."
    $endgroup$
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    2 days ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I would add that Cohen's result didn't change the fact that set theorists of a Platonist bent tend to regard the CH as false (though it may have convinced a few to not be of a Platonist bent). I don't know much about this, but my understanding is that Godel had some esoteric reasons for believing $mathfrak c =aleph_2,$ whereas the dominant view in the aftermath of Cohen was that it was much larger, perhaps even weakly inaccessible. (Although there have been serious proposals that imply $mathfrak c =aleph_2,$ and even CH, more recently.)
    $endgroup$
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    2 days ago


















12












$begingroup$


Gödel was the first to show that ~CH was not provable from ZFC. However, he also thought CH was false in his view of the "Platonic" reality of set theory. It seems this view was also somewhat common among set theorists of a Platonist bent, until Cohen's later forcing result.



Does anyone know what Gödel's reasoning was for CH being false? Did he ever write anything about it, addressing his views on the subject?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Are you asking for a source for the statement that Gödel though CH was false?
    $endgroup$
    – Lee Mosher
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    One might also look at Godel's collected works volume 2 for history and commentary on the 1947/1964 exposition, and Volume 3 about his unpublished 1970 notes. Also, Kanamori's "Godel and Set theory". There is also discussion of Godel's beliefs on CH in Maddy's "Believing the Axioms I" and Koellner's "On the question of absolute undecidability."
    $endgroup$
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    2 days ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I would add that Cohen's result didn't change the fact that set theorists of a Platonist bent tend to regard the CH as false (though it may have convinced a few to not be of a Platonist bent). I don't know much about this, but my understanding is that Godel had some esoteric reasons for believing $mathfrak c =aleph_2,$ whereas the dominant view in the aftermath of Cohen was that it was much larger, perhaps even weakly inaccessible. (Although there have been serious proposals that imply $mathfrak c =aleph_2,$ and even CH, more recently.)
    $endgroup$
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    2 days ago
















12












12








12


4



$begingroup$


Gödel was the first to show that ~CH was not provable from ZFC. However, he also thought CH was false in his view of the "Platonic" reality of set theory. It seems this view was also somewhat common among set theorists of a Platonist bent, until Cohen's later forcing result.



Does anyone know what Gödel's reasoning was for CH being false? Did he ever write anything about it, addressing his views on the subject?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




Gödel was the first to show that ~CH was not provable from ZFC. However, he also thought CH was false in his view of the "Platonic" reality of set theory. It seems this view was also somewhat common among set theorists of a Platonist bent, until Cohen's later forcing result.



Does anyone know what Gödel's reasoning was for CH being false? Did he ever write anything about it, addressing his views on the subject?







soft-question set-theory math-history






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share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked 2 days ago









Mike BattagliaMike Battaglia

1,6041130




1,6041130












  • $begingroup$
    Are you asking for a source for the statement that Gödel though CH was false?
    $endgroup$
    – Lee Mosher
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    One might also look at Godel's collected works volume 2 for history and commentary on the 1947/1964 exposition, and Volume 3 about his unpublished 1970 notes. Also, Kanamori's "Godel and Set theory". There is also discussion of Godel's beliefs on CH in Maddy's "Believing the Axioms I" and Koellner's "On the question of absolute undecidability."
    $endgroup$
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    2 days ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I would add that Cohen's result didn't change the fact that set theorists of a Platonist bent tend to regard the CH as false (though it may have convinced a few to not be of a Platonist bent). I don't know much about this, but my understanding is that Godel had some esoteric reasons for believing $mathfrak c =aleph_2,$ whereas the dominant view in the aftermath of Cohen was that it was much larger, perhaps even weakly inaccessible. (Although there have been serious proposals that imply $mathfrak c =aleph_2,$ and even CH, more recently.)
    $endgroup$
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    2 days ago




















  • $begingroup$
    Are you asking for a source for the statement that Gödel though CH was false?
    $endgroup$
    – Lee Mosher
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    One might also look at Godel's collected works volume 2 for history and commentary on the 1947/1964 exposition, and Volume 3 about his unpublished 1970 notes. Also, Kanamori's "Godel and Set theory". There is also discussion of Godel's beliefs on CH in Maddy's "Believing the Axioms I" and Koellner's "On the question of absolute undecidability."
    $endgroup$
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    2 days ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I would add that Cohen's result didn't change the fact that set theorists of a Platonist bent tend to regard the CH as false (though it may have convinced a few to not be of a Platonist bent). I don't know much about this, but my understanding is that Godel had some esoteric reasons for believing $mathfrak c =aleph_2,$ whereas the dominant view in the aftermath of Cohen was that it was much larger, perhaps even weakly inaccessible. (Although there have been serious proposals that imply $mathfrak c =aleph_2,$ and even CH, more recently.)
    $endgroup$
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    2 days ago


















$begingroup$
Are you asking for a source for the statement that Gödel though CH was false?
$endgroup$
– Lee Mosher
2 days ago




$begingroup$
Are you asking for a source for the statement that Gödel though CH was false?
$endgroup$
– Lee Mosher
2 days ago












$begingroup$
One might also look at Godel's collected works volume 2 for history and commentary on the 1947/1964 exposition, and Volume 3 about his unpublished 1970 notes. Also, Kanamori's "Godel and Set theory". There is also discussion of Godel's beliefs on CH in Maddy's "Believing the Axioms I" and Koellner's "On the question of absolute undecidability."
$endgroup$
– spaceisdarkgreen
2 days ago






$begingroup$
One might also look at Godel's collected works volume 2 for history and commentary on the 1947/1964 exposition, and Volume 3 about his unpublished 1970 notes. Also, Kanamori's "Godel and Set theory". There is also discussion of Godel's beliefs on CH in Maddy's "Believing the Axioms I" and Koellner's "On the question of absolute undecidability."
$endgroup$
– spaceisdarkgreen
2 days ago






1




1




$begingroup$
I would add that Cohen's result didn't change the fact that set theorists of a Platonist bent tend to regard the CH as false (though it may have convinced a few to not be of a Platonist bent). I don't know much about this, but my understanding is that Godel had some esoteric reasons for believing $mathfrak c =aleph_2,$ whereas the dominant view in the aftermath of Cohen was that it was much larger, perhaps even weakly inaccessible. (Although there have been serious proposals that imply $mathfrak c =aleph_2,$ and even CH, more recently.)
$endgroup$
– spaceisdarkgreen
2 days ago






$begingroup$
I would add that Cohen's result didn't change the fact that set theorists of a Platonist bent tend to regard the CH as false (though it may have convinced a few to not be of a Platonist bent). I don't know much about this, but my understanding is that Godel had some esoteric reasons for believing $mathfrak c =aleph_2,$ whereas the dominant view in the aftermath of Cohen was that it was much larger, perhaps even weakly inaccessible. (Although there have been serious proposals that imply $mathfrak c =aleph_2,$ and even CH, more recently.)
$endgroup$
– spaceisdarkgreen
2 days ago












2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















15












$begingroup$

There is a classical survey of Gödel about the continuum hypothesis:




"What is Cantor's Continuum Problem", K. Gödel, The American Mathematical Monthly, Vol. 54, No. 9 (Nov., 1947), pp. 515-525




In section 4, he discusses "in what sense and in which direction a solution of the continuum problem may be expected". While this is of course just a survey, it still represents some of Gödel's individual thoughts about the subject at the time.



A barrier free link is right now e.g. this.



Edit: (by David Richerby) He says he feels that several results in descriptive set theory that the Polish school had shown follow from CH are implausible (see p 523), though there was never really any wide agreement with Gödel that these were so implausible to be worth singling out.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 9




    $begingroup$
    Could you at least give a short summary of the argument? Even if it's just at the level of "He was worried that CH implies that unicorns cannot exist", that would be helpful.
    $endgroup$
    – David Richerby
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    @DavidRicherby He does not really give a (strong) argument in this reference. He only says he feels that several results in descriptive set theory that the Polish school had shown follow from CH are implausible (see p 523). I think it is safe to say that there was never any wide agreement with Godel that these were so implausible to be worth singling out. In later work, he attempted to give a detailed argument that $mathfrak c=aleph_2,$ but that too was considered a failure.
    $endgroup$
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    There's nothing at all wrong with this answer. The post has two interelated questions including "Did he ever write anything about it, addressing his views on the subject?", and this is a fine answer to that one.
    $endgroup$
    – Lee Mosher
    yesterday






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I first apologize to all the people waiting for my edit. I agree that the answer is thin as to almost just giving a link and a appropriate edit would be helpful. Although I agree with the diplomacy regarding the made and revoked edit on my post, I will this time implement the addition suggested by @DavidRicherby as it is a really nice summary of the main point and I myself don't want to go over into a copycat state.
    $endgroup$
    – blub
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Quid: I agree, my comment was a response to another comment (now deleted) that was calling for this answer to be deleted. I'll probably therefore delete my comment at some point.
    $endgroup$
    – Lee Mosher
    yesterday



















4












$begingroup$

Gödel's view on CH changed over his lifetime, so it is hard to give a comprehensive answer to the question about his reasoning. It evolved over the years, and toward the end of his life he even came to believe that the CH may be true (although he still believed the GCH was false).



Fortunately, there is a three-volume collected works of Gödel, and most of what I say here is gleaned from the commentary in there, as well as some secondary sources I gave in the comments below the questions.



First off, I should say that while many of Gödel's philosophical ideas on set theory from the mid 40s onward (i.e. after his development of the $L$ hierarchy and proof of the consistency of AC and GCH) are regarded as important, even if they weren't all super influential at the time, his ideas on the specific question of the absolute truth of CH are mostly considered dead ends.



With that said, the natural place to start is his proof of the consistency of GCH in the late 30s. He did this by defining the constructible sets $L,$ and showing that they form a model of ZFC + GCH. In his initial development, Gödel believed that the great clarification of the set concept given by his axiom of constructibility was perhaps the missing piece needed to decide our set theoretical questions. This, of course, would amount to a belief that CH is true.



However he quickly reversed this position and came to what has since been the dominant view among Platonists that the axiom of constructibility is obviously false. In his 1947 expository paper What is Cantor's Continuum Problem?, he likens the constructible sets to a model of non-Euclidean geometry constructed within Euclidean geometry: while this establishes the consistency of non-Euclidean geometry, it has no bearing on the "true" Euclidean universe. The axiom does clarify the notion of a set, but it does so by placing severe restrictions on what a set is, saying they all need to be obtained from transfinite iteration of simple constructive operations. This, to Gödel and the majority of set theorists after him, seemed to be the exact opposite of what a principle guiding the concept of an arbitrary set should do.



In the same passage, Gödel argued that the CH was probably not provable from ZFC. Essentially, although it may be the the wrong clarification, the axiom of constructibility does seem to be a very strong clarification of what sets there are, and it would be odd if a question like CH did not require this clarification (or one of similar magnitude) in its solution. (Of course on this point, Gödel was resoundingly correct.)



Now to finally touch on the issue in your question. As a secondary argument that CH is not provable, he asserts that it is probably false. His argument is fairly thin: he states without much elaboration that he finds several descriptive set theory consequences of CH to be implausible. (For instance the existence of uncountable absolute measure zero sets and Sierpinski sets.) My descriptive set theory is pretty weak, so I don't know quite what to make of this, but eminent set theorist Donald Martin has said




While Gödel's intuitions should never be taken lightly, it is very hard to see
that the situation is different from that of Peano curves, and it is even hard for some of us to see why the examples Gödel's cites are implausible at all.




(Peano curves are a counterintuitive construction that does not require CH that Gödel claims without much substantiation that the situation is different for.)



So although much of this article was insightful (including a lot of stuff I didn't touch on about the direction forward in finding new axioms), Gödel's arguments for the falsity of CH were not taken up by the mathematical community.



Gödel didn't have much output between 1947 and the advent of forcing in the early 60s (although he had attempted with some progress to establish the consistency of the negation of choice). Cohen's proof was more than just a confirmation that ZFC could not prove CH: it showed that $2^{aleph_0}$ could consistently take arbitrarily large values, and that the meager facts that we already knew about the size of the continuum were essentially all that ZFC could tell us. This intensified what was already a suspicion in the set theory community that the continuum was probably very large.



While he was rightfully in awe of Cohen's work, Gödel had of course long believed that CH was not provable and had been looking in other directions. He had expressed hope that large cardinal axioms would decide the CH, but shortly after the advent of forcing it was discovered by Levy and Solovay that this would not work. (Despite this, the large cardinal program has been very fruitful in general, and did strongly refute the axiom of constructibility.) Meanwhile, he had hit upon an old idea of Hausdorff that seemed to him to produce tractable conjectures that were intuitively true and informative on the continuum.



This work is the subjuct of an unpublished handwritten note in 1970s in which Gödel claims to have a convincing argument that $2^{aleph_0}=aleph_2.$ Details can be found in the collected works or Kanamori's Gödel and Set Theory. Interestingly, once he had formulated his axioms (known as "rectangle axioms") it was discovered that, amongst other issues, they actually implied the CH rather than $2^{aleph_0}=aleph_2.$ Undeterred, he came around to the belief that the CH was probably true after all, and that in any event this approach would give strong evidence that the continuum was small (no larger than $aleph_2$).



Although this was considered a failure (an interesting one by some), Kanamori notes that it rhymes with the broader history of set theory post-Cohen. After years of believing the continuum was large, set theorists began to seriously consider some deep principles that would imply (of all things) $2^{aleph_0}=aleph_2.$ And sure enough, shortly after Kanamori wrote this, another principle came into vogue that would imply CH. Which goes to show that thinking about the truth of CH itself has largely given way to thinking about what deeper and more general principles should hold, and then accepting whatever they imply about the CH.






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    2 Answers
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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

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    15












    $begingroup$

    There is a classical survey of Gödel about the continuum hypothesis:




    "What is Cantor's Continuum Problem", K. Gödel, The American Mathematical Monthly, Vol. 54, No. 9 (Nov., 1947), pp. 515-525




    In section 4, he discusses "in what sense and in which direction a solution of the continuum problem may be expected". While this is of course just a survey, it still represents some of Gödel's individual thoughts about the subject at the time.



    A barrier free link is right now e.g. this.



    Edit: (by David Richerby) He says he feels that several results in descriptive set theory that the Polish school had shown follow from CH are implausible (see p 523), though there was never really any wide agreement with Gödel that these were so implausible to be worth singling out.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$









    • 9




      $begingroup$
      Could you at least give a short summary of the argument? Even if it's just at the level of "He was worried that CH implies that unicorns cannot exist", that would be helpful.
      $endgroup$
      – David Richerby
      2 days ago










    • $begingroup$
      @DavidRicherby He does not really give a (strong) argument in this reference. He only says he feels that several results in descriptive set theory that the Polish school had shown follow from CH are implausible (see p 523). I think it is safe to say that there was never any wide agreement with Godel that these were so implausible to be worth singling out. In later work, he attempted to give a detailed argument that $mathfrak c=aleph_2,$ but that too was considered a failure.
      $endgroup$
      – spaceisdarkgreen
      2 days ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      There's nothing at all wrong with this answer. The post has two interelated questions including "Did he ever write anything about it, addressing his views on the subject?", and this is a fine answer to that one.
      $endgroup$
      – Lee Mosher
      yesterday






    • 2




      $begingroup$
      I first apologize to all the people waiting for my edit. I agree that the answer is thin as to almost just giving a link and a appropriate edit would be helpful. Although I agree with the diplomacy regarding the made and revoked edit on my post, I will this time implement the addition suggested by @DavidRicherby as it is a really nice summary of the main point and I myself don't want to go over into a copycat state.
      $endgroup$
      – blub
      yesterday






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Quid: I agree, my comment was a response to another comment (now deleted) that was calling for this answer to be deleted. I'll probably therefore delete my comment at some point.
      $endgroup$
      – Lee Mosher
      yesterday
















    15












    $begingroup$

    There is a classical survey of Gödel about the continuum hypothesis:




    "What is Cantor's Continuum Problem", K. Gödel, The American Mathematical Monthly, Vol. 54, No. 9 (Nov., 1947), pp. 515-525




    In section 4, he discusses "in what sense and in which direction a solution of the continuum problem may be expected". While this is of course just a survey, it still represents some of Gödel's individual thoughts about the subject at the time.



    A barrier free link is right now e.g. this.



    Edit: (by David Richerby) He says he feels that several results in descriptive set theory that the Polish school had shown follow from CH are implausible (see p 523), though there was never really any wide agreement with Gödel that these were so implausible to be worth singling out.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$









    • 9




      $begingroup$
      Could you at least give a short summary of the argument? Even if it's just at the level of "He was worried that CH implies that unicorns cannot exist", that would be helpful.
      $endgroup$
      – David Richerby
      2 days ago










    • $begingroup$
      @DavidRicherby He does not really give a (strong) argument in this reference. He only says he feels that several results in descriptive set theory that the Polish school had shown follow from CH are implausible (see p 523). I think it is safe to say that there was never any wide agreement with Godel that these were so implausible to be worth singling out. In later work, he attempted to give a detailed argument that $mathfrak c=aleph_2,$ but that too was considered a failure.
      $endgroup$
      – spaceisdarkgreen
      2 days ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      There's nothing at all wrong with this answer. The post has two interelated questions including "Did he ever write anything about it, addressing his views on the subject?", and this is a fine answer to that one.
      $endgroup$
      – Lee Mosher
      yesterday






    • 2




      $begingroup$
      I first apologize to all the people waiting for my edit. I agree that the answer is thin as to almost just giving a link and a appropriate edit would be helpful. Although I agree with the diplomacy regarding the made and revoked edit on my post, I will this time implement the addition suggested by @DavidRicherby as it is a really nice summary of the main point and I myself don't want to go over into a copycat state.
      $endgroup$
      – blub
      yesterday






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Quid: I agree, my comment was a response to another comment (now deleted) that was calling for this answer to be deleted. I'll probably therefore delete my comment at some point.
      $endgroup$
      – Lee Mosher
      yesterday














    15












    15








    15





    $begingroup$

    There is a classical survey of Gödel about the continuum hypothesis:




    "What is Cantor's Continuum Problem", K. Gödel, The American Mathematical Monthly, Vol. 54, No. 9 (Nov., 1947), pp. 515-525




    In section 4, he discusses "in what sense and in which direction a solution of the continuum problem may be expected". While this is of course just a survey, it still represents some of Gödel's individual thoughts about the subject at the time.



    A barrier free link is right now e.g. this.



    Edit: (by David Richerby) He says he feels that several results in descriptive set theory that the Polish school had shown follow from CH are implausible (see p 523), though there was never really any wide agreement with Gödel that these were so implausible to be worth singling out.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    There is a classical survey of Gödel about the continuum hypothesis:




    "What is Cantor's Continuum Problem", K. Gödel, The American Mathematical Monthly, Vol. 54, No. 9 (Nov., 1947), pp. 515-525




    In section 4, he discusses "in what sense and in which direction a solution of the continuum problem may be expected". While this is of course just a survey, it still represents some of Gödel's individual thoughts about the subject at the time.



    A barrier free link is right now e.g. this.



    Edit: (by David Richerby) He says he feels that several results in descriptive set theory that the Polish school had shown follow from CH are implausible (see p 523), though there was never really any wide agreement with Gödel that these were so implausible to be worth singling out.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited yesterday

























    answered 2 days ago









    blubblub

    3,279929




    3,279929








    • 9




      $begingroup$
      Could you at least give a short summary of the argument? Even if it's just at the level of "He was worried that CH implies that unicorns cannot exist", that would be helpful.
      $endgroup$
      – David Richerby
      2 days ago










    • $begingroup$
      @DavidRicherby He does not really give a (strong) argument in this reference. He only says he feels that several results in descriptive set theory that the Polish school had shown follow from CH are implausible (see p 523). I think it is safe to say that there was never any wide agreement with Godel that these were so implausible to be worth singling out. In later work, he attempted to give a detailed argument that $mathfrak c=aleph_2,$ but that too was considered a failure.
      $endgroup$
      – spaceisdarkgreen
      2 days ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      There's nothing at all wrong with this answer. The post has two interelated questions including "Did he ever write anything about it, addressing his views on the subject?", and this is a fine answer to that one.
      $endgroup$
      – Lee Mosher
      yesterday






    • 2




      $begingroup$
      I first apologize to all the people waiting for my edit. I agree that the answer is thin as to almost just giving a link and a appropriate edit would be helpful. Although I agree with the diplomacy regarding the made and revoked edit on my post, I will this time implement the addition suggested by @DavidRicherby as it is a really nice summary of the main point and I myself don't want to go over into a copycat state.
      $endgroup$
      – blub
      yesterday






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Quid: I agree, my comment was a response to another comment (now deleted) that was calling for this answer to be deleted. I'll probably therefore delete my comment at some point.
      $endgroup$
      – Lee Mosher
      yesterday














    • 9




      $begingroup$
      Could you at least give a short summary of the argument? Even if it's just at the level of "He was worried that CH implies that unicorns cannot exist", that would be helpful.
      $endgroup$
      – David Richerby
      2 days ago










    • $begingroup$
      @DavidRicherby He does not really give a (strong) argument in this reference. He only says he feels that several results in descriptive set theory that the Polish school had shown follow from CH are implausible (see p 523). I think it is safe to say that there was never any wide agreement with Godel that these were so implausible to be worth singling out. In later work, he attempted to give a detailed argument that $mathfrak c=aleph_2,$ but that too was considered a failure.
      $endgroup$
      – spaceisdarkgreen
      2 days ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      There's nothing at all wrong with this answer. The post has two interelated questions including "Did he ever write anything about it, addressing his views on the subject?", and this is a fine answer to that one.
      $endgroup$
      – Lee Mosher
      yesterday






    • 2




      $begingroup$
      I first apologize to all the people waiting for my edit. I agree that the answer is thin as to almost just giving a link and a appropriate edit would be helpful. Although I agree with the diplomacy regarding the made and revoked edit on my post, I will this time implement the addition suggested by @DavidRicherby as it is a really nice summary of the main point and I myself don't want to go over into a copycat state.
      $endgroup$
      – blub
      yesterday






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Quid: I agree, my comment was a response to another comment (now deleted) that was calling for this answer to be deleted. I'll probably therefore delete my comment at some point.
      $endgroup$
      – Lee Mosher
      yesterday








    9




    9




    $begingroup$
    Could you at least give a short summary of the argument? Even if it's just at the level of "He was worried that CH implies that unicorns cannot exist", that would be helpful.
    $endgroup$
    – David Richerby
    2 days ago




    $begingroup$
    Could you at least give a short summary of the argument? Even if it's just at the level of "He was worried that CH implies that unicorns cannot exist", that would be helpful.
    $endgroup$
    – David Richerby
    2 days ago












    $begingroup$
    @DavidRicherby He does not really give a (strong) argument in this reference. He only says he feels that several results in descriptive set theory that the Polish school had shown follow from CH are implausible (see p 523). I think it is safe to say that there was never any wide agreement with Godel that these were so implausible to be worth singling out. In later work, he attempted to give a detailed argument that $mathfrak c=aleph_2,$ but that too was considered a failure.
    $endgroup$
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    2 days ago




    $begingroup$
    @DavidRicherby He does not really give a (strong) argument in this reference. He only says he feels that several results in descriptive set theory that the Polish school had shown follow from CH are implausible (see p 523). I think it is safe to say that there was never any wide agreement with Godel that these were so implausible to be worth singling out. In later work, he attempted to give a detailed argument that $mathfrak c=aleph_2,$ but that too was considered a failure.
    $endgroup$
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    2 days ago




    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    There's nothing at all wrong with this answer. The post has two interelated questions including "Did he ever write anything about it, addressing his views on the subject?", and this is a fine answer to that one.
    $endgroup$
    – Lee Mosher
    yesterday




    $begingroup$
    There's nothing at all wrong with this answer. The post has two interelated questions including "Did he ever write anything about it, addressing his views on the subject?", and this is a fine answer to that one.
    $endgroup$
    – Lee Mosher
    yesterday




    2




    2




    $begingroup$
    I first apologize to all the people waiting for my edit. I agree that the answer is thin as to almost just giving a link and a appropriate edit would be helpful. Although I agree with the diplomacy regarding the made and revoked edit on my post, I will this time implement the addition suggested by @DavidRicherby as it is a really nice summary of the main point and I myself don't want to go over into a copycat state.
    $endgroup$
    – blub
    yesterday




    $begingroup$
    I first apologize to all the people waiting for my edit. I agree that the answer is thin as to almost just giving a link and a appropriate edit would be helpful. Although I agree with the diplomacy regarding the made and revoked edit on my post, I will this time implement the addition suggested by @DavidRicherby as it is a really nice summary of the main point and I myself don't want to go over into a copycat state.
    $endgroup$
    – blub
    yesterday




    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    @Quid: I agree, my comment was a response to another comment (now deleted) that was calling for this answer to be deleted. I'll probably therefore delete my comment at some point.
    $endgroup$
    – Lee Mosher
    yesterday




    $begingroup$
    @Quid: I agree, my comment was a response to another comment (now deleted) that was calling for this answer to be deleted. I'll probably therefore delete my comment at some point.
    $endgroup$
    – Lee Mosher
    yesterday











    4












    $begingroup$

    Gödel's view on CH changed over his lifetime, so it is hard to give a comprehensive answer to the question about his reasoning. It evolved over the years, and toward the end of his life he even came to believe that the CH may be true (although he still believed the GCH was false).



    Fortunately, there is a three-volume collected works of Gödel, and most of what I say here is gleaned from the commentary in there, as well as some secondary sources I gave in the comments below the questions.



    First off, I should say that while many of Gödel's philosophical ideas on set theory from the mid 40s onward (i.e. after his development of the $L$ hierarchy and proof of the consistency of AC and GCH) are regarded as important, even if they weren't all super influential at the time, his ideas on the specific question of the absolute truth of CH are mostly considered dead ends.



    With that said, the natural place to start is his proof of the consistency of GCH in the late 30s. He did this by defining the constructible sets $L,$ and showing that they form a model of ZFC + GCH. In his initial development, Gödel believed that the great clarification of the set concept given by his axiom of constructibility was perhaps the missing piece needed to decide our set theoretical questions. This, of course, would amount to a belief that CH is true.



    However he quickly reversed this position and came to what has since been the dominant view among Platonists that the axiom of constructibility is obviously false. In his 1947 expository paper What is Cantor's Continuum Problem?, he likens the constructible sets to a model of non-Euclidean geometry constructed within Euclidean geometry: while this establishes the consistency of non-Euclidean geometry, it has no bearing on the "true" Euclidean universe. The axiom does clarify the notion of a set, but it does so by placing severe restrictions on what a set is, saying they all need to be obtained from transfinite iteration of simple constructive operations. This, to Gödel and the majority of set theorists after him, seemed to be the exact opposite of what a principle guiding the concept of an arbitrary set should do.



    In the same passage, Gödel argued that the CH was probably not provable from ZFC. Essentially, although it may be the the wrong clarification, the axiom of constructibility does seem to be a very strong clarification of what sets there are, and it would be odd if a question like CH did not require this clarification (or one of similar magnitude) in its solution. (Of course on this point, Gödel was resoundingly correct.)



    Now to finally touch on the issue in your question. As a secondary argument that CH is not provable, he asserts that it is probably false. His argument is fairly thin: he states without much elaboration that he finds several descriptive set theory consequences of CH to be implausible. (For instance the existence of uncountable absolute measure zero sets and Sierpinski sets.) My descriptive set theory is pretty weak, so I don't know quite what to make of this, but eminent set theorist Donald Martin has said




    While Gödel's intuitions should never be taken lightly, it is very hard to see
    that the situation is different from that of Peano curves, and it is even hard for some of us to see why the examples Gödel's cites are implausible at all.




    (Peano curves are a counterintuitive construction that does not require CH that Gödel claims without much substantiation that the situation is different for.)



    So although much of this article was insightful (including a lot of stuff I didn't touch on about the direction forward in finding new axioms), Gödel's arguments for the falsity of CH were not taken up by the mathematical community.



    Gödel didn't have much output between 1947 and the advent of forcing in the early 60s (although he had attempted with some progress to establish the consistency of the negation of choice). Cohen's proof was more than just a confirmation that ZFC could not prove CH: it showed that $2^{aleph_0}$ could consistently take arbitrarily large values, and that the meager facts that we already knew about the size of the continuum were essentially all that ZFC could tell us. This intensified what was already a suspicion in the set theory community that the continuum was probably very large.



    While he was rightfully in awe of Cohen's work, Gödel had of course long believed that CH was not provable and had been looking in other directions. He had expressed hope that large cardinal axioms would decide the CH, but shortly after the advent of forcing it was discovered by Levy and Solovay that this would not work. (Despite this, the large cardinal program has been very fruitful in general, and did strongly refute the axiom of constructibility.) Meanwhile, he had hit upon an old idea of Hausdorff that seemed to him to produce tractable conjectures that were intuitively true and informative on the continuum.



    This work is the subjuct of an unpublished handwritten note in 1970s in which Gödel claims to have a convincing argument that $2^{aleph_0}=aleph_2.$ Details can be found in the collected works or Kanamori's Gödel and Set Theory. Interestingly, once he had formulated his axioms (known as "rectangle axioms") it was discovered that, amongst other issues, they actually implied the CH rather than $2^{aleph_0}=aleph_2.$ Undeterred, he came around to the belief that the CH was probably true after all, and that in any event this approach would give strong evidence that the continuum was small (no larger than $aleph_2$).



    Although this was considered a failure (an interesting one by some), Kanamori notes that it rhymes with the broader history of set theory post-Cohen. After years of believing the continuum was large, set theorists began to seriously consider some deep principles that would imply (of all things) $2^{aleph_0}=aleph_2.$ And sure enough, shortly after Kanamori wrote this, another principle came into vogue that would imply CH. Which goes to show that thinking about the truth of CH itself has largely given way to thinking about what deeper and more general principles should hold, and then accepting whatever they imply about the CH.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$


















      4












      $begingroup$

      Gödel's view on CH changed over his lifetime, so it is hard to give a comprehensive answer to the question about his reasoning. It evolved over the years, and toward the end of his life he even came to believe that the CH may be true (although he still believed the GCH was false).



      Fortunately, there is a three-volume collected works of Gödel, and most of what I say here is gleaned from the commentary in there, as well as some secondary sources I gave in the comments below the questions.



      First off, I should say that while many of Gödel's philosophical ideas on set theory from the mid 40s onward (i.e. after his development of the $L$ hierarchy and proof of the consistency of AC and GCH) are regarded as important, even if they weren't all super influential at the time, his ideas on the specific question of the absolute truth of CH are mostly considered dead ends.



      With that said, the natural place to start is his proof of the consistency of GCH in the late 30s. He did this by defining the constructible sets $L,$ and showing that they form a model of ZFC + GCH. In his initial development, Gödel believed that the great clarification of the set concept given by his axiom of constructibility was perhaps the missing piece needed to decide our set theoretical questions. This, of course, would amount to a belief that CH is true.



      However he quickly reversed this position and came to what has since been the dominant view among Platonists that the axiom of constructibility is obviously false. In his 1947 expository paper What is Cantor's Continuum Problem?, he likens the constructible sets to a model of non-Euclidean geometry constructed within Euclidean geometry: while this establishes the consistency of non-Euclidean geometry, it has no bearing on the "true" Euclidean universe. The axiom does clarify the notion of a set, but it does so by placing severe restrictions on what a set is, saying they all need to be obtained from transfinite iteration of simple constructive operations. This, to Gödel and the majority of set theorists after him, seemed to be the exact opposite of what a principle guiding the concept of an arbitrary set should do.



      In the same passage, Gödel argued that the CH was probably not provable from ZFC. Essentially, although it may be the the wrong clarification, the axiom of constructibility does seem to be a very strong clarification of what sets there are, and it would be odd if a question like CH did not require this clarification (or one of similar magnitude) in its solution. (Of course on this point, Gödel was resoundingly correct.)



      Now to finally touch on the issue in your question. As a secondary argument that CH is not provable, he asserts that it is probably false. His argument is fairly thin: he states without much elaboration that he finds several descriptive set theory consequences of CH to be implausible. (For instance the existence of uncountable absolute measure zero sets and Sierpinski sets.) My descriptive set theory is pretty weak, so I don't know quite what to make of this, but eminent set theorist Donald Martin has said




      While Gödel's intuitions should never be taken lightly, it is very hard to see
      that the situation is different from that of Peano curves, and it is even hard for some of us to see why the examples Gödel's cites are implausible at all.




      (Peano curves are a counterintuitive construction that does not require CH that Gödel claims without much substantiation that the situation is different for.)



      So although much of this article was insightful (including a lot of stuff I didn't touch on about the direction forward in finding new axioms), Gödel's arguments for the falsity of CH were not taken up by the mathematical community.



      Gödel didn't have much output between 1947 and the advent of forcing in the early 60s (although he had attempted with some progress to establish the consistency of the negation of choice). Cohen's proof was more than just a confirmation that ZFC could not prove CH: it showed that $2^{aleph_0}$ could consistently take arbitrarily large values, and that the meager facts that we already knew about the size of the continuum were essentially all that ZFC could tell us. This intensified what was already a suspicion in the set theory community that the continuum was probably very large.



      While he was rightfully in awe of Cohen's work, Gödel had of course long believed that CH was not provable and had been looking in other directions. He had expressed hope that large cardinal axioms would decide the CH, but shortly after the advent of forcing it was discovered by Levy and Solovay that this would not work. (Despite this, the large cardinal program has been very fruitful in general, and did strongly refute the axiom of constructibility.) Meanwhile, he had hit upon an old idea of Hausdorff that seemed to him to produce tractable conjectures that were intuitively true and informative on the continuum.



      This work is the subjuct of an unpublished handwritten note in 1970s in which Gödel claims to have a convincing argument that $2^{aleph_0}=aleph_2.$ Details can be found in the collected works or Kanamori's Gödel and Set Theory. Interestingly, once he had formulated his axioms (known as "rectangle axioms") it was discovered that, amongst other issues, they actually implied the CH rather than $2^{aleph_0}=aleph_2.$ Undeterred, he came around to the belief that the CH was probably true after all, and that in any event this approach would give strong evidence that the continuum was small (no larger than $aleph_2$).



      Although this was considered a failure (an interesting one by some), Kanamori notes that it rhymes with the broader history of set theory post-Cohen. After years of believing the continuum was large, set theorists began to seriously consider some deep principles that would imply (of all things) $2^{aleph_0}=aleph_2.$ And sure enough, shortly after Kanamori wrote this, another principle came into vogue that would imply CH. Which goes to show that thinking about the truth of CH itself has largely given way to thinking about what deeper and more general principles should hold, and then accepting whatever they imply about the CH.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$
















        4












        4








        4





        $begingroup$

        Gödel's view on CH changed over his lifetime, so it is hard to give a comprehensive answer to the question about his reasoning. It evolved over the years, and toward the end of his life he even came to believe that the CH may be true (although he still believed the GCH was false).



        Fortunately, there is a three-volume collected works of Gödel, and most of what I say here is gleaned from the commentary in there, as well as some secondary sources I gave in the comments below the questions.



        First off, I should say that while many of Gödel's philosophical ideas on set theory from the mid 40s onward (i.e. after his development of the $L$ hierarchy and proof of the consistency of AC and GCH) are regarded as important, even if they weren't all super influential at the time, his ideas on the specific question of the absolute truth of CH are mostly considered dead ends.



        With that said, the natural place to start is his proof of the consistency of GCH in the late 30s. He did this by defining the constructible sets $L,$ and showing that they form a model of ZFC + GCH. In his initial development, Gödel believed that the great clarification of the set concept given by his axiom of constructibility was perhaps the missing piece needed to decide our set theoretical questions. This, of course, would amount to a belief that CH is true.



        However he quickly reversed this position and came to what has since been the dominant view among Platonists that the axiom of constructibility is obviously false. In his 1947 expository paper What is Cantor's Continuum Problem?, he likens the constructible sets to a model of non-Euclidean geometry constructed within Euclidean geometry: while this establishes the consistency of non-Euclidean geometry, it has no bearing on the "true" Euclidean universe. The axiom does clarify the notion of a set, but it does so by placing severe restrictions on what a set is, saying they all need to be obtained from transfinite iteration of simple constructive operations. This, to Gödel and the majority of set theorists after him, seemed to be the exact opposite of what a principle guiding the concept of an arbitrary set should do.



        In the same passage, Gödel argued that the CH was probably not provable from ZFC. Essentially, although it may be the the wrong clarification, the axiom of constructibility does seem to be a very strong clarification of what sets there are, and it would be odd if a question like CH did not require this clarification (or one of similar magnitude) in its solution. (Of course on this point, Gödel was resoundingly correct.)



        Now to finally touch on the issue in your question. As a secondary argument that CH is not provable, he asserts that it is probably false. His argument is fairly thin: he states without much elaboration that he finds several descriptive set theory consequences of CH to be implausible. (For instance the existence of uncountable absolute measure zero sets and Sierpinski sets.) My descriptive set theory is pretty weak, so I don't know quite what to make of this, but eminent set theorist Donald Martin has said




        While Gödel's intuitions should never be taken lightly, it is very hard to see
        that the situation is different from that of Peano curves, and it is even hard for some of us to see why the examples Gödel's cites are implausible at all.




        (Peano curves are a counterintuitive construction that does not require CH that Gödel claims without much substantiation that the situation is different for.)



        So although much of this article was insightful (including a lot of stuff I didn't touch on about the direction forward in finding new axioms), Gödel's arguments for the falsity of CH were not taken up by the mathematical community.



        Gödel didn't have much output between 1947 and the advent of forcing in the early 60s (although he had attempted with some progress to establish the consistency of the negation of choice). Cohen's proof was more than just a confirmation that ZFC could not prove CH: it showed that $2^{aleph_0}$ could consistently take arbitrarily large values, and that the meager facts that we already knew about the size of the continuum were essentially all that ZFC could tell us. This intensified what was already a suspicion in the set theory community that the continuum was probably very large.



        While he was rightfully in awe of Cohen's work, Gödel had of course long believed that CH was not provable and had been looking in other directions. He had expressed hope that large cardinal axioms would decide the CH, but shortly after the advent of forcing it was discovered by Levy and Solovay that this would not work. (Despite this, the large cardinal program has been very fruitful in general, and did strongly refute the axiom of constructibility.) Meanwhile, he had hit upon an old idea of Hausdorff that seemed to him to produce tractable conjectures that were intuitively true and informative on the continuum.



        This work is the subjuct of an unpublished handwritten note in 1970s in which Gödel claims to have a convincing argument that $2^{aleph_0}=aleph_2.$ Details can be found in the collected works or Kanamori's Gödel and Set Theory. Interestingly, once he had formulated his axioms (known as "rectangle axioms") it was discovered that, amongst other issues, they actually implied the CH rather than $2^{aleph_0}=aleph_2.$ Undeterred, he came around to the belief that the CH was probably true after all, and that in any event this approach would give strong evidence that the continuum was small (no larger than $aleph_2$).



        Although this was considered a failure (an interesting one by some), Kanamori notes that it rhymes with the broader history of set theory post-Cohen. After years of believing the continuum was large, set theorists began to seriously consider some deep principles that would imply (of all things) $2^{aleph_0}=aleph_2.$ And sure enough, shortly after Kanamori wrote this, another principle came into vogue that would imply CH. Which goes to show that thinking about the truth of CH itself has largely given way to thinking about what deeper and more general principles should hold, and then accepting whatever they imply about the CH.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        Gödel's view on CH changed over his lifetime, so it is hard to give a comprehensive answer to the question about his reasoning. It evolved over the years, and toward the end of his life he even came to believe that the CH may be true (although he still believed the GCH was false).



        Fortunately, there is a three-volume collected works of Gödel, and most of what I say here is gleaned from the commentary in there, as well as some secondary sources I gave in the comments below the questions.



        First off, I should say that while many of Gödel's philosophical ideas on set theory from the mid 40s onward (i.e. after his development of the $L$ hierarchy and proof of the consistency of AC and GCH) are regarded as important, even if they weren't all super influential at the time, his ideas on the specific question of the absolute truth of CH are mostly considered dead ends.



        With that said, the natural place to start is his proof of the consistency of GCH in the late 30s. He did this by defining the constructible sets $L,$ and showing that they form a model of ZFC + GCH. In his initial development, Gödel believed that the great clarification of the set concept given by his axiom of constructibility was perhaps the missing piece needed to decide our set theoretical questions. This, of course, would amount to a belief that CH is true.



        However he quickly reversed this position and came to what has since been the dominant view among Platonists that the axiom of constructibility is obviously false. In his 1947 expository paper What is Cantor's Continuum Problem?, he likens the constructible sets to a model of non-Euclidean geometry constructed within Euclidean geometry: while this establishes the consistency of non-Euclidean geometry, it has no bearing on the "true" Euclidean universe. The axiom does clarify the notion of a set, but it does so by placing severe restrictions on what a set is, saying they all need to be obtained from transfinite iteration of simple constructive operations. This, to Gödel and the majority of set theorists after him, seemed to be the exact opposite of what a principle guiding the concept of an arbitrary set should do.



        In the same passage, Gödel argued that the CH was probably not provable from ZFC. Essentially, although it may be the the wrong clarification, the axiom of constructibility does seem to be a very strong clarification of what sets there are, and it would be odd if a question like CH did not require this clarification (or one of similar magnitude) in its solution. (Of course on this point, Gödel was resoundingly correct.)



        Now to finally touch on the issue in your question. As a secondary argument that CH is not provable, he asserts that it is probably false. His argument is fairly thin: he states without much elaboration that he finds several descriptive set theory consequences of CH to be implausible. (For instance the existence of uncountable absolute measure zero sets and Sierpinski sets.) My descriptive set theory is pretty weak, so I don't know quite what to make of this, but eminent set theorist Donald Martin has said




        While Gödel's intuitions should never be taken lightly, it is very hard to see
        that the situation is different from that of Peano curves, and it is even hard for some of us to see why the examples Gödel's cites are implausible at all.




        (Peano curves are a counterintuitive construction that does not require CH that Gödel claims without much substantiation that the situation is different for.)



        So although much of this article was insightful (including a lot of stuff I didn't touch on about the direction forward in finding new axioms), Gödel's arguments for the falsity of CH were not taken up by the mathematical community.



        Gödel didn't have much output between 1947 and the advent of forcing in the early 60s (although he had attempted with some progress to establish the consistency of the negation of choice). Cohen's proof was more than just a confirmation that ZFC could not prove CH: it showed that $2^{aleph_0}$ could consistently take arbitrarily large values, and that the meager facts that we already knew about the size of the continuum were essentially all that ZFC could tell us. This intensified what was already a suspicion in the set theory community that the continuum was probably very large.



        While he was rightfully in awe of Cohen's work, Gödel had of course long believed that CH was not provable and had been looking in other directions. He had expressed hope that large cardinal axioms would decide the CH, but shortly after the advent of forcing it was discovered by Levy and Solovay that this would not work. (Despite this, the large cardinal program has been very fruitful in general, and did strongly refute the axiom of constructibility.) Meanwhile, he had hit upon an old idea of Hausdorff that seemed to him to produce tractable conjectures that were intuitively true and informative on the continuum.



        This work is the subjuct of an unpublished handwritten note in 1970s in which Gödel claims to have a convincing argument that $2^{aleph_0}=aleph_2.$ Details can be found in the collected works or Kanamori's Gödel and Set Theory. Interestingly, once he had formulated his axioms (known as "rectangle axioms") it was discovered that, amongst other issues, they actually implied the CH rather than $2^{aleph_0}=aleph_2.$ Undeterred, he came around to the belief that the CH was probably true after all, and that in any event this approach would give strong evidence that the continuum was small (no larger than $aleph_2$).



        Although this was considered a failure (an interesting one by some), Kanamori notes that it rhymes with the broader history of set theory post-Cohen. After years of believing the continuum was large, set theorists began to seriously consider some deep principles that would imply (of all things) $2^{aleph_0}=aleph_2.$ And sure enough, shortly after Kanamori wrote this, another principle came into vogue that would imply CH. Which goes to show that thinking about the truth of CH itself has largely given way to thinking about what deeper and more general principles should hold, and then accepting whatever they imply about the CH.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










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Hall Of Fame””Slayer Wins 'Best Metal' Grammy Award””Slayer Guitarist Jeff Hanneman Dies””Bullet-For My Valentine booed at Metal Hammer Golden Gods Awards””Unholy Aliance””The End Of Slayer?””Slayer: We Could Thrash Out Two More Albums If We're Fast Enough...””'The Unholy Alliance: Chapter III' UK Dates Added”originalet”Megadeth And Slayer To Co-Headline 'Canadian Carnage' Trek”originalet”World Painted Blood””Release “World Painted Blood” by Slayer””Metallica Heading To Cinemas””Slayer, Megadeth To Join Forces For 'European Carnage' Tour - Dec. 18, 2010”originalet”Slayer's Hanneman Contracts Acute Infection; Band To Bring In Guest Guitarist””Cannibal Corpse's Pat O'Brien Will Step In As Slayer's Guest Guitarist”originalet”Slayer’s Jeff Hanneman Dead at 49””Dave Lombardo Says He Made Only $67,000 In 2011 While Touring With Slayer””Slayer: We Do Not Agree With Dave Lombardo's Substance Or Timeline Of Events””Slayer Welcomes Drummer Paul Bostaph Back To The Fold””Slayer Hope to Unveil Never-Before-Heard Jeff Hanneman Material on Next Album””Slayer Debut New Song 'Implode' During Surprise Golden Gods Appearance””Release group Repentless by Slayer””Repentless - Slayer - Credits””Slayer””Metal Storm Awards 2015””Slayer - to release comic book "Repentless #1"””Slayer To Release 'Repentless' 6.66" Vinyl Box Set””BREAKING NEWS: Slayer Announce Farewell Tour””Slayer Recruit Lamb of God, Anthrax, Behemoth + Testament for Final Tour””Slayer lägger ner efter 37 år””Slayer Announces Second North American Leg Of 'Final' Tour””Final World Tour””Slayer Announces Final European Tour With Lamb of God, Anthrax And Obituary””Slayer To Tour Europe With Lamb of God, Anthrax And Obituary””Slayer To Play 'Last French Show Ever' At Next Year's Hellfst””Slayer's Final World Tour Will Extend Into 2019””Death Angel's Rob Cavestany On Slayer's 'Farewell' Tour: 'Some Of Us Could See This Coming'””Testament Has No Plans To Retire Anytime Soon, Says Chuck Billy””Anthrax's Scott Ian On Slayer's 'Farewell' Tour Plans: 'I Was Surprised And I Wasn't Surprised'””Slayer””Slayer's Morbid Schlock””Review/Rock; For Slayer, the Mania Is the Message””Slayer - Biography””Slayer - Reign In Blood”originalet”Dave Lombardo””An exclusive oral history of Slayer”originalet”Exclusive! Interview With Slayer Guitarist Jeff Hanneman”originalet”Thinking Out Loud: Slayer's Kerry King on hair metal, Satan and being polite””Slayer Lyrics””Slayer - Biography””Most influential artists for extreme metal music””Slayer - Reign in Blood””Slayer guitarist Jeff Hanneman dies aged 49””Slatanic Slaughter: A Tribute to Slayer””Gateway to Hell: A Tribute to Slayer””Covered In Blood””Slayer: The Origins of Thrash in San Francisco, CA.””Why They Rule - #6 Slayer”originalet”Guitar World's 100 Greatest Heavy Metal Guitarists Of All Time”originalet”The fans have spoken: Slayer comes out on top in readers' polls”originalet”Tribute to Jeff Hanneman (1964-2013)””Lamb Of God Frontman: We Sound Like A Slayer Rip-Off””BEHEMOTH Frontman Pays Tribute To SLAYER's JEFF HANNEMAN””Slayer, Hatebreed Doing Double Duty On This Year's Ozzfest””System of a Down””Lacuna Coil’s Andrea Ferro Talks Influences, Skateboarding, Band Origins + More””Slayer - Reign in Blood””Into The Lungs of Hell””Slayer rules - en utställning om fans””Slayer and Their Fans Slashed Through a No-Holds-Barred Night at Gas Monkey””Home””Slayer””Gold & Platinum - The Big 4 Live from Sofia, Bulgaria””Exclusive! Interview With Slayer Guitarist Kerry King””2008-02-23: Wiltern, Los Angeles, CA, USA””Slayer's Kerry King To Perform With Megadeth Tonight! - Oct. 21, 2010”originalet”Dave Lombardo - Biography”Slayer Case DismissedArkiveradUltimate Classic Rock: Slayer guitarist Jeff Hanneman dead at 49.”Slayer: "We could never do any thing like Some Kind Of Monster..."””Cannibal Corpse'S Pat O'Brien Will Step In As Slayer'S Guest Guitarist | The Official Slayer Site”originalet”Slayer Wins 'Best Metal' Grammy Award””Slayer Guitarist Jeff Hanneman Dies””Kerrang! Awards 2006 Blog: Kerrang! Hall Of Fame””Kerrang! Awards 2013: Kerrang! Legend”originalet”Metallica, Slayer, Iron Maien Among Winners At Metal Hammer Awards””Metal Hammer Golden Gods Awards””Bullet For My Valentine Booed At Metal Hammer Golden Gods Awards””Metal Storm Awards 2006””Metal Storm Awards 2015””Slayer's Concert History””Slayer - Relationships””Slayer - Releases”Slayers officiella webbplatsSlayer på MusicBrainzOfficiell webbplatsSlayerSlayerr1373445760000 0001 1540 47353068615-5086262726cb13906545x(data)6033143kn20030215029