Difficulty understanding group delay conceptPhysical significance of group delayCalculating Circuit Delayphase wrapping group delayUnderstanding max and min propagation delay in flip-flopsEstimating via propagation delayHow to introduce delay to a signalGroup delay and phase delay of a filterCalculating Phase/Time Delay induced by a 2-pole Bandpass filter? ie. Group Delay?Is group delay the same as the delay of a certain frequency?Physical significance of positive group delay with negative phase delayDelay pulse (trigger) for a variable delay respectively to 0-5V input
Output visual diagram of picture
New Order #2: Turn My Way
PTIJ: Which Dr. Seuss books should one obtain?
How do I lift the insulation blower into the attic?
python displays `n` instead of breaking a line
Checking @@ROWCOUNT failing
How can I, as DM, avoid the Conga Line of Death occurring when implementing some form of flanking rule?
Extract substring according to regexp with sed or grep
Make a Bowl of Alphabet Soup
When is the exact date for EOL of Ubuntu 14.04 LTS?
Taking the numerator and the denominator
What is it called when someone votes for an option that's not their first choice?
What is the meaning of "You've never met a graph you didn't like?"
Is divisi notation needed for brass or woodwind in an orchestra?
Are hand made posters acceptable in Academia?
Has the laser at Magurele, Romania reached the tenth of the Sun power?
Sort with assumptions
Writing in a Christian voice
A seasonal riddle
Is this saw blade faulty?
What is the purpose of using a decision tree?
How do you justify more code being written by following clean code practices?
Exposing a company lying about themselves in a tightly knit industry (videogames) : Is my career at risk on the long run?
Why doesn't Gödel's incompleteness theorem apply to false statements?
Difficulty understanding group delay concept
Physical significance of group delayCalculating Circuit Delayphase wrapping group delayUnderstanding max and min propagation delay in flip-flopsEstimating via propagation delayHow to introduce delay to a signalGroup delay and phase delay of a filterCalculating Phase/Time Delay induced by a 2-pole Bandpass filter? ie. Group Delay?Is group delay the same as the delay of a certain frequency?Physical significance of positive group delay with negative phase delayDelay pulse (trigger) for a variable delay respectively to 0-5V input
$begingroup$
I’m having difficulty understanding the concept of group delay. The mathematical definition is not difficult, since it says it is the negative derivative of Bode plot’s phase curve wrt frequency. Most often qualitative definitions are easy but the math is difficult. In this case seems the opposite or it is due to my ignorance.
I have read some similar questions but still did not get the reason for such a concept. Is it possible to illustrate this concept with an example in elementary level. I know the meaning of Fourrier transform, frequency domain representation, and basic filter theory. Also a bit of modulation. What would the derivative of a phase frequency plot tell us regarding a low pass filter for instance? Im completely lost on the meaning of it so I cant even pose the question well.
delay group
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I’m having difficulty understanding the concept of group delay. The mathematical definition is not difficult, since it says it is the negative derivative of Bode plot’s phase curve wrt frequency. Most often qualitative definitions are easy but the math is difficult. In this case seems the opposite or it is due to my ignorance.
I have read some similar questions but still did not get the reason for such a concept. Is it possible to illustrate this concept with an example in elementary level. I know the meaning of Fourrier transform, frequency domain representation, and basic filter theory. Also a bit of modulation. What would the derivative of a phase frequency plot tell us regarding a low pass filter for instance? Im completely lost on the meaning of it so I cant even pose the question well.
delay group
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Group Delay is an indicator of how a waveform will be distorted, or preserved.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
22 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I’m having difficulty understanding the concept of group delay. The mathematical definition is not difficult, since it says it is the negative derivative of Bode plot’s phase curve wrt frequency. Most often qualitative definitions are easy but the math is difficult. In this case seems the opposite or it is due to my ignorance.
I have read some similar questions but still did not get the reason for such a concept. Is it possible to illustrate this concept with an example in elementary level. I know the meaning of Fourrier transform, frequency domain representation, and basic filter theory. Also a bit of modulation. What would the derivative of a phase frequency plot tell us regarding a low pass filter for instance? Im completely lost on the meaning of it so I cant even pose the question well.
delay group
$endgroup$
I’m having difficulty understanding the concept of group delay. The mathematical definition is not difficult, since it says it is the negative derivative of Bode plot’s phase curve wrt frequency. Most often qualitative definitions are easy but the math is difficult. In this case seems the opposite or it is due to my ignorance.
I have read some similar questions but still did not get the reason for such a concept. Is it possible to illustrate this concept with an example in elementary level. I know the meaning of Fourrier transform, frequency domain representation, and basic filter theory. Also a bit of modulation. What would the derivative of a phase frequency plot tell us regarding a low pass filter for instance? Im completely lost on the meaning of it so I cant even pose the question well.
delay group
delay group
asked yesterday
user1999user1999
426313
426313
$begingroup$
Group Delay is an indicator of how a waveform will be distorted, or preserved.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
22 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Group Delay is an indicator of how a waveform will be distorted, or preserved.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
22 hours ago
$begingroup$
Group Delay is an indicator of how a waveform will be distorted, or preserved.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
22 hours ago
$begingroup$
Group Delay is an indicator of how a waveform will be distorted, or preserved.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
22 hours ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
(1) Let us start with the PHASE DELAY: The response of a linear two-port to a sinusoidal excitation is an output signal with the same frequency w but with a phase delay $ phi $:
$ V_out=V_max times sin(wt+phi)=V_max
times sin[w(t+$ $phiover w$ $)] = V_max times sin[w(t-t_p)] $
Here, the expression $t_p=-$ $ phi over w$ is a delay time (phase delay) between input and output.
(2) For communication purposes of arbitrary waveforms we need the superposition of several sinusoidal waves with different frequencies. Of course we do not want that the various sinusoidal waves suffer from DIFFERENT delay figures.
Hence, we want a constant delay time tp for all these frequencies and we require that the equation $|phi|=t_ptimes w$ results in a LINEAR rising function between $phi$ and $w$ (for $t_p$=const).
From system theory we know that such a requirement (linearity between $phi$ and $w$) can be realized within a relatively small frequency band only. Hence, we define this requirement to be valid only within a frequency band that is realtively small if compared with the mean value of these frequencies:
We express this linearity requirement in form of the slope of the function and arrive at the so-called group delay
$t_g=-$ $dphiover dw$ $=const$ .
In practice, this requirement can be fulfilled with some errors only. Therefore, the constancy of the value for the group delay tg is a good measure for the quality of a communication channel (low distortion).
For example, a constant group delay is very important for a "good" pulse transmission.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
$endgroup$
– LvW
yesterday
$begingroup$
If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
@LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
$endgroup$
– Toor
yesterday
$begingroup$
Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
$endgroup$
– LvW
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Group delay is the delay, in seconds, to a signal.
Imagine a cable that's (say) 1uS long, electrically. If you put a step into one end, the step will come out 1uS later. If you plot the phase response of the cable, the phase at DC will be zero, and at 1MHz will be 2pi. The slope of the phase, d(phase)/d(frequency) is therefore 1uS.
The same goes for a filter. The delay to a signal through the filter is dp/df. As this measure will be frequency dependant, it only applies to signals which are bandlimited to lie within the range for which dp/df is fairly constant.
As a step in voltage is wideband, if this is passed through a filter with group delay that varies with frequency, the different frequencies of the step will be passed with different delays, and the result is dispersion, or smearing out of the step at the filter output.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If the group delay for signals between $f_1$ and $f_2$ is $tau_1,2$, then a signal that's band-limited to lie between $f_1$ and $f_2$ will be delayed by $tau_1,2$.
If the group delay across the entire frequency band is the same number, then any signal will be delayed by that -- and it'll just be "delay", because the term "group delay" applies technically, but you don't need to get that specific.
If you have one signal (e.g. a pulse) that encounters a filter with a group delay that varies across the spectrum of your signal, then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times. This is why a pulse that's run through a simple lumped-component low-pass filter will be smeared out, but the same pulse run through a constant group-delay FIR filter will just be rounded.
(Because you asked about phase delay in the comments): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
“then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
$endgroup$
– TimWescott
yesterday
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["\$", "\$"]]);
);
);
, "mathjax-editing");
StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
return StackExchange.using("schematics", function ()
StackExchange.schematics.init();
);
, "cicuitlab");
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "135"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2felectronics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f427824%2fdifficulty-understanding-group-delay-concept%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
(1) Let us start with the PHASE DELAY: The response of a linear two-port to a sinusoidal excitation is an output signal with the same frequency w but with a phase delay $ phi $:
$ V_out=V_max times sin(wt+phi)=V_max
times sin[w(t+$ $phiover w$ $)] = V_max times sin[w(t-t_p)] $
Here, the expression $t_p=-$ $ phi over w$ is a delay time (phase delay) between input and output.
(2) For communication purposes of arbitrary waveforms we need the superposition of several sinusoidal waves with different frequencies. Of course we do not want that the various sinusoidal waves suffer from DIFFERENT delay figures.
Hence, we want a constant delay time tp for all these frequencies and we require that the equation $|phi|=t_ptimes w$ results in a LINEAR rising function between $phi$ and $w$ (for $t_p$=const).
From system theory we know that such a requirement (linearity between $phi$ and $w$) can be realized within a relatively small frequency band only. Hence, we define this requirement to be valid only within a frequency band that is realtively small if compared with the mean value of these frequencies:
We express this linearity requirement in form of the slope of the function and arrive at the so-called group delay
$t_g=-$ $dphiover dw$ $=const$ .
In practice, this requirement can be fulfilled with some errors only. Therefore, the constancy of the value for the group delay tg is a good measure for the quality of a communication channel (low distortion).
For example, a constant group delay is very important for a "good" pulse transmission.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
$endgroup$
– LvW
yesterday
$begingroup$
If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
@LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
$endgroup$
– Toor
yesterday
$begingroup$
Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
$endgroup$
– LvW
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
(1) Let us start with the PHASE DELAY: The response of a linear two-port to a sinusoidal excitation is an output signal with the same frequency w but with a phase delay $ phi $:
$ V_out=V_max times sin(wt+phi)=V_max
times sin[w(t+$ $phiover w$ $)] = V_max times sin[w(t-t_p)] $
Here, the expression $t_p=-$ $ phi over w$ is a delay time (phase delay) between input and output.
(2) For communication purposes of arbitrary waveforms we need the superposition of several sinusoidal waves with different frequencies. Of course we do not want that the various sinusoidal waves suffer from DIFFERENT delay figures.
Hence, we want a constant delay time tp for all these frequencies and we require that the equation $|phi|=t_ptimes w$ results in a LINEAR rising function between $phi$ and $w$ (for $t_p$=const).
From system theory we know that such a requirement (linearity between $phi$ and $w$) can be realized within a relatively small frequency band only. Hence, we define this requirement to be valid only within a frequency band that is realtively small if compared with the mean value of these frequencies:
We express this linearity requirement in form of the slope of the function and arrive at the so-called group delay
$t_g=-$ $dphiover dw$ $=const$ .
In practice, this requirement can be fulfilled with some errors only. Therefore, the constancy of the value for the group delay tg is a good measure for the quality of a communication channel (low distortion).
For example, a constant group delay is very important for a "good" pulse transmission.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
$endgroup$
– LvW
yesterday
$begingroup$
If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
@LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
$endgroup$
– Toor
yesterday
$begingroup$
Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
$endgroup$
– LvW
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
(1) Let us start with the PHASE DELAY: The response of a linear two-port to a sinusoidal excitation is an output signal with the same frequency w but with a phase delay $ phi $:
$ V_out=V_max times sin(wt+phi)=V_max
times sin[w(t+$ $phiover w$ $)] = V_max times sin[w(t-t_p)] $
Here, the expression $t_p=-$ $ phi over w$ is a delay time (phase delay) between input and output.
(2) For communication purposes of arbitrary waveforms we need the superposition of several sinusoidal waves with different frequencies. Of course we do not want that the various sinusoidal waves suffer from DIFFERENT delay figures.
Hence, we want a constant delay time tp for all these frequencies and we require that the equation $|phi|=t_ptimes w$ results in a LINEAR rising function between $phi$ and $w$ (for $t_p$=const).
From system theory we know that such a requirement (linearity between $phi$ and $w$) can be realized within a relatively small frequency band only. Hence, we define this requirement to be valid only within a frequency band that is realtively small if compared with the mean value of these frequencies:
We express this linearity requirement in form of the slope of the function and arrive at the so-called group delay
$t_g=-$ $dphiover dw$ $=const$ .
In practice, this requirement can be fulfilled with some errors only. Therefore, the constancy of the value for the group delay tg is a good measure for the quality of a communication channel (low distortion).
For example, a constant group delay is very important for a "good" pulse transmission.
$endgroup$
(1) Let us start with the PHASE DELAY: The response of a linear two-port to a sinusoidal excitation is an output signal with the same frequency w but with a phase delay $ phi $:
$ V_out=V_max times sin(wt+phi)=V_max
times sin[w(t+$ $phiover w$ $)] = V_max times sin[w(t-t_p)] $
Here, the expression $t_p=-$ $ phi over w$ is a delay time (phase delay) between input and output.
(2) For communication purposes of arbitrary waveforms we need the superposition of several sinusoidal waves with different frequencies. Of course we do not want that the various sinusoidal waves suffer from DIFFERENT delay figures.
Hence, we want a constant delay time tp for all these frequencies and we require that the equation $|phi|=t_ptimes w$ results in a LINEAR rising function between $phi$ and $w$ (for $t_p$=const).
From system theory we know that such a requirement (linearity between $phi$ and $w$) can be realized within a relatively small frequency band only. Hence, we define this requirement to be valid only within a frequency band that is realtively small if compared with the mean value of these frequencies:
We express this linearity requirement in form of the slope of the function and arrive at the so-called group delay
$t_g=-$ $dphiover dw$ $=const$ .
In practice, this requirement can be fulfilled with some errors only. Therefore, the constancy of the value for the group delay tg is a good measure for the quality of a communication channel (low distortion).
For example, a constant group delay is very important for a "good" pulse transmission.
edited yesterday
Toor
1,16529
1,16529
answered yesterday
LvWLvW
14.7k21230
14.7k21230
$begingroup$
Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
$endgroup$
– LvW
yesterday
$begingroup$
If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
@LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
$endgroup$
– Toor
yesterday
$begingroup$
Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
$endgroup$
– LvW
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
$endgroup$
– LvW
yesterday
$begingroup$
If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
@LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
$endgroup$
– Toor
yesterday
$begingroup$
Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
$endgroup$
– LvW
yesterday
$begingroup$
Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
$endgroup$
– LvW
yesterday
$begingroup$
Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
$endgroup$
– LvW
yesterday
$begingroup$
If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
@LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
$endgroup$
– Toor
yesterday
$begingroup$
@LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
$endgroup$
– Toor
yesterday
$begingroup$
Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
$endgroup$
– LvW
yesterday
$begingroup$
Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
$endgroup$
– LvW
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Group delay is the delay, in seconds, to a signal.
Imagine a cable that's (say) 1uS long, electrically. If you put a step into one end, the step will come out 1uS later. If you plot the phase response of the cable, the phase at DC will be zero, and at 1MHz will be 2pi. The slope of the phase, d(phase)/d(frequency) is therefore 1uS.
The same goes for a filter. The delay to a signal through the filter is dp/df. As this measure will be frequency dependant, it only applies to signals which are bandlimited to lie within the range for which dp/df is fairly constant.
As a step in voltage is wideband, if this is passed through a filter with group delay that varies with frequency, the different frequencies of the step will be passed with different delays, and the result is dispersion, or smearing out of the step at the filter output.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Group delay is the delay, in seconds, to a signal.
Imagine a cable that's (say) 1uS long, electrically. If you put a step into one end, the step will come out 1uS later. If you plot the phase response of the cable, the phase at DC will be zero, and at 1MHz will be 2pi. The slope of the phase, d(phase)/d(frequency) is therefore 1uS.
The same goes for a filter. The delay to a signal through the filter is dp/df. As this measure will be frequency dependant, it only applies to signals which are bandlimited to lie within the range for which dp/df is fairly constant.
As a step in voltage is wideband, if this is passed through a filter with group delay that varies with frequency, the different frequencies of the step will be passed with different delays, and the result is dispersion, or smearing out of the step at the filter output.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Group delay is the delay, in seconds, to a signal.
Imagine a cable that's (say) 1uS long, electrically. If you put a step into one end, the step will come out 1uS later. If you plot the phase response of the cable, the phase at DC will be zero, and at 1MHz will be 2pi. The slope of the phase, d(phase)/d(frequency) is therefore 1uS.
The same goes for a filter. The delay to a signal through the filter is dp/df. As this measure will be frequency dependant, it only applies to signals which are bandlimited to lie within the range for which dp/df is fairly constant.
As a step in voltage is wideband, if this is passed through a filter with group delay that varies with frequency, the different frequencies of the step will be passed with different delays, and the result is dispersion, or smearing out of the step at the filter output.
$endgroup$
Group delay is the delay, in seconds, to a signal.
Imagine a cable that's (say) 1uS long, electrically. If you put a step into one end, the step will come out 1uS later. If you plot the phase response of the cable, the phase at DC will be zero, and at 1MHz will be 2pi. The slope of the phase, d(phase)/d(frequency) is therefore 1uS.
The same goes for a filter. The delay to a signal through the filter is dp/df. As this measure will be frequency dependant, it only applies to signals which are bandlimited to lie within the range for which dp/df is fairly constant.
As a step in voltage is wideband, if this is passed through a filter with group delay that varies with frequency, the different frequencies of the step will be passed with different delays, and the result is dispersion, or smearing out of the step at the filter output.
answered yesterday
Neil_UKNeil_UK
77.8k284178
77.8k284178
$begingroup$
Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If the group delay for signals between $f_1$ and $f_2$ is $tau_1,2$, then a signal that's band-limited to lie between $f_1$ and $f_2$ will be delayed by $tau_1,2$.
If the group delay across the entire frequency band is the same number, then any signal will be delayed by that -- and it'll just be "delay", because the term "group delay" applies technically, but you don't need to get that specific.
If you have one signal (e.g. a pulse) that encounters a filter with a group delay that varies across the spectrum of your signal, then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times. This is why a pulse that's run through a simple lumped-component low-pass filter will be smeared out, but the same pulse run through a constant group-delay FIR filter will just be rounded.
(Because you asked about phase delay in the comments): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
“then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
$endgroup$
– TimWescott
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If the group delay for signals between $f_1$ and $f_2$ is $tau_1,2$, then a signal that's band-limited to lie between $f_1$ and $f_2$ will be delayed by $tau_1,2$.
If the group delay across the entire frequency band is the same number, then any signal will be delayed by that -- and it'll just be "delay", because the term "group delay" applies technically, but you don't need to get that specific.
If you have one signal (e.g. a pulse) that encounters a filter with a group delay that varies across the spectrum of your signal, then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times. This is why a pulse that's run through a simple lumped-component low-pass filter will be smeared out, but the same pulse run through a constant group-delay FIR filter will just be rounded.
(Because you asked about phase delay in the comments): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
“then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
$endgroup$
– TimWescott
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If the group delay for signals between $f_1$ and $f_2$ is $tau_1,2$, then a signal that's band-limited to lie between $f_1$ and $f_2$ will be delayed by $tau_1,2$.
If the group delay across the entire frequency band is the same number, then any signal will be delayed by that -- and it'll just be "delay", because the term "group delay" applies technically, but you don't need to get that specific.
If you have one signal (e.g. a pulse) that encounters a filter with a group delay that varies across the spectrum of your signal, then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times. This is why a pulse that's run through a simple lumped-component low-pass filter will be smeared out, but the same pulse run through a constant group-delay FIR filter will just be rounded.
(Because you asked about phase delay in the comments): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay
$endgroup$
If the group delay for signals between $f_1$ and $f_2$ is $tau_1,2$, then a signal that's band-limited to lie between $f_1$ and $f_2$ will be delayed by $tau_1,2$.
If the group delay across the entire frequency band is the same number, then any signal will be delayed by that -- and it'll just be "delay", because the term "group delay" applies technically, but you don't need to get that specific.
If you have one signal (e.g. a pulse) that encounters a filter with a group delay that varies across the spectrum of your signal, then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times. This is why a pulse that's run through a simple lumped-component low-pass filter will be smeared out, but the same pulse run through a constant group-delay FIR filter will just be rounded.
(Because you asked about phase delay in the comments): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
TimWescottTimWescott
6,0121415
6,0121415
$begingroup$
“then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
$endgroup$
– TimWescott
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
“then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
$endgroup$
– TimWescott
yesterday
$begingroup$
“then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
“then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
$endgroup$
– user1999
yesterday
$begingroup$
They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
$endgroup$
– TimWescott
yesterday
$begingroup$
They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
$endgroup$
– TimWescott
yesterday
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Electrical Engineering Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2felectronics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f427824%2fdifficulty-understanding-group-delay-concept%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
$begingroup$
Group Delay is an indicator of how a waveform will be distorted, or preserved.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
22 hours ago